Question: Why are Fast Learner and Star Pupil so powerful? Raising a single skill to 12 costs 156 XP or 78 XP with the appropriate knack. Even if you charge 30XP for Epic Intelligence 1, and two Knacks, that is still 48 XP saved. Each skill after that is a solid 78 XP savings. Several of your active characters have flushed away 400+ XP!
No such thing, my friend; there is no flushing here. Our players will all be happy to tell you that nobody is ever wasting XP around here.
This question comes up every now and then (if you like, check out previous discussions on PCs with different amounts of XP and Fate spending XP), and it always bemuses me a bit, because it comes from the mindset where XP is king and it doesn't matter what you buy as long as you have gotten the most possible dots on your sheet for the amount of XP you have. But that just isn't so; having the most XP to spend somewhere on your sheet isn't king. Having the most XP to spend on the things you want to get is, and there's a very important distinction between the two.
Just like every other knack in the game, Fast Learner and Star Pupil (and their identical brethren Natural Juggernaut, Natural Leader and Eyes in the Back of Your Head) represent a specific kind of specialization; the character with Fast Learner and Star Pupil is good at learning new things. Scion represents learning new skills with XP, which is a measure of how much your character can learn over time, so skills that have to do with learning certain subjects quickly affect the XP ratio. A character being better at learning new skills than others is just as valid a choice as a character being able to see radio waves when others can't or speak mind-to-mind when others can't; like everything else you spend XP on in a game, you're simply making a choice about what you want. Those who want more dots in abilities buy Fast Learner; those who would rather have the nifty power of speaking all tongues get Language Mastery, and those who want to be able to think their way through magical smokescreens get Blockade of Reason. Fast Learner isn't inherently more powerful than other Intelligence knacks because it affects XP; it's just different, and just like character A might be different from character B because one is great at soaking hits and the other great at marching on until the bitter end, the only difference between the character with Fast Learner and his buddy is that one of them is better at learning abilities and the other is better at learning languages.
The point of the game isn't to have the most XP spent on your character; it's for your character to be the most awesome and effective at the things you want to do. If you want to be an awesome generalist who is an expert in every ability, that's awesome! Pick up all the XP-saver knacks! But if you want to focus on being an impregnable resistance fortress, or being able to take all the physical punishment the world can dish out, or being able to spy on Overworlds unfathomable distances away, that's awesome, too! Get those knacks instead.
It's a bit of a mental prison, I think, the idea that XP is always the most important thing in the game and no matter what you do, you're getting the best result if you technically have more XP than the next guy. It just doesn't work that way; having more abilities than the next guy will sometimes give you an edge over him, and sometimes work against you because he was able to get other powers you didn't. Like all other choices when it comes to building your PC, it'll be awesome in one area but mean you didn't get something in another area. The idea that not focusing on abilities is somehow a "waste" is ridiculous; it's only a waste if your character really wants to focus on abilities and for some reason doesn't.
Every Scion is different, and there's no perfect character build that is better than all others. If your XP is spent on something you want and you get to be awesome with it, there's never any waste involved, no matter what your friend across the table spent his on.
But if you buy Fast Learner (or the equivalent in your skills of choice) don't you get enough XP savings to buy more things you want to get?
ReplyDeleteFor example, Zwazo Fou Fou could have spent 20XP to buy Well-Read Virgin and Star Pupil and saved about 60XP (if not more) buying Brawl and Melee for 40XP gain.
He could then take that 40XP and buy things he likes such as another dot of Epic Strength, Dexterity, or Stamina.
Or in the example provided, the character who takes Fast Learner will pretty quickly be able to afford to buy Language Mastery and Blockade of Reason.
I think the only only case where this might not be true is a character who spends almost no XP on skills. Even buying two dots above 5 makes the knack basically free.
Well two things. 1: Is it a character that makes sense to have Fast Learner and the like? It's usually more fun to pick knacks not because they're powerful, but because it makes sense they'll have it. And 2: Theoretically, yes? There are many ways to save XP and get more for your money, just in character creation alone I could name a few, but just...why bother putting effort into that? (and that's if your ST doesn't overrule such cheesing)
DeleteWell all of those knacks should be justified by your character choices. In the case of Zwazo Fou Fou the very fact that he is great at brawling and melee would suggest he would be a Star Pupil at those skills, especially since he already has a couple dots of Epic Intelligence.
DeleteThe only way it would not be justified is if you have a high rating in a skill and specifically roleplayed being kind of dense and having a hard time learning those skills you want to be really good at (Naruto/Rock Lee style).
No. The confusion here is between the concepts of "saving" XP and "gaining" XP.
DeleteThese knacks do not get you more XP. They cannot generate XP out of thin air. What they do is make your XP stretch further if, and only if, you want to buy abilities with it.
So if you were going to buy some dots of Brawl anyway, then yes, Star Pupil is a great idea for you! It will make that cheaper for you! But if you aren't buying dots of Brawl and you want to spend your XP on, say, Fire, the knack doesn't do anything for you. The guy who wanted to buy Brawl and Fire will have an easier time doing it with the knacks, but the guy who is never bothering to buy Brawl doesn't care.
Not every character concept is going to want to buy all the abilities, so naturally they don't all need the XP knacks. Those who do want to buy lots of abilities should get them, because that's what they're there for!
I just want to mention that, as a player, I have never felt like I have flushed XP away. Vivian got Star Pupil early on because that made perfect sense for her, but only just recently got Natural Juggernaut because I needed another knack and had everything I already needed.
ReplyDeleteI guess I just don't understand these questions when they pop up.
I don't know for sure, but I think what the posters above are saying is something along the lines of "Since you bought star pupil you got to afford more non-skill stuff that fits for Vivian."
DeleteOr something similar.
But you didn't - unless you wanted the abilities and that other stuff. If you want both, then buy these knacks! That's what they're for! And if you don't and would rather get that other stuff faster and don't care about random extra dots of Control, then don't, and get a knack that fits better.
DeleteThe only way this gives you "more" XP is if you want those abilities and you want other stuff. If you want the other stuff more than you want to wait around and spend XP on abilities, these knacks are pointless for you. If you want the abilities and the other powers, these knacks are working exactly as intended for you.
I think it has more to do with your gaming mentality ( and what you want out of the game) than anything else. Are you in the game hoping to min-max your character to ridiculous extremes, or are you more interested in the organic process of how your character grows and changes over the course of the story?
ReplyDeleteYes, people may have "wasted" some XP over the past few years, but it's never really *felt* that way. Or, at least, it doesn't seem any different than spending XP on a purview/knack/ability/whatever that you (or your fatebonds) later decide isn't something you should be focusing on.
I don't think this qualifies as a ridiculous extreme. If you're planning to raise even one of the skills you should probably buy the knack.
ReplyDeleteI can see someone not wanting to spend the XP at Hero, but as soon as you hit Demigod these knacks pay for themselves so fast it is not even funny.
It was a tough choice when skills went up to 5, but now that skills go up to 12 it's a no brainer unless it specifically goes against your character concept.
I didn't mean that simply using these knacks would qualify as reaching for those extremes. What I *did* mean is that some power gamers just feel the need to min-max as much as possible, no matter the game. (I don't feel this shows up as much in Scion than in other games like DnD, but that might just be a difference in the quality of people I'm playing with now.)
ReplyDeletePersonally, I *did* pick up a few of the 1/2 price boons early in Woody's Scion career: some at character creation and some shortly after. He got the Int boons (including Teaching Prodigy) from his dip in Mimir's well. And he got most of the others when they felt like they made sense story-wise.
Though, with John's fatebond system, these knacks can easily work against you, as well. The cheaper they are to buy, the faster they disappear if someone decides you're bad at them.
DeleteThis is true! I look forward to seeing the revised fatebond system when it is done.
DeleteAs the players, how do you guys actually feel about the fatebonds? Is it something you care about constantly, or is it more of an afterthought you only worry about when they get out of hand?
I like the Fatebond system. I like the idea of consequences to our actions around mortals. When we first started picking them up, I was much more careless about how I spent my legend and how well I rolled when I spent it. As we progressed, I learned to pick my battles; if I was getting really bad at Dex Larceny rolls, I quit trying to make them. I embraced the bonuses I got to Medicine and made sure to reroll when I didn't succeed at them to avoid losing my extra dice.
DeleteThe only time I really tried to fight my Fatebonds was when they were trying to screw over my Perception. I won out, but I spent a lot of XP in the process to make sure it wasn't bought off forever.
Without Fatebonds, Vivian would be a very different character, but I love that her cults and followers helped shape who she is and what she excellent and fails at doing.