Tuesday, July 24, 2012

It's Tough to be Pretty

Question: Do you think people with high Epic socials often feel guilty? If you have massive Charisma, people just surrender to your opinions even if you are wrong. If you have massive Manipulation, people just agree with your well reasoned arguments even if you are wrong.

And if you have massive Appearance, their brains basically turn off. Yay! Epic socials are fun!

But as far as guilt goes, I think having the socials has nothing to do with it; it's whether or not that's a person who would normally feel guilt about railroading someone else. Some certainly do; Geoff feels like a heel pretty regularly for using his powers on others, even when it's something as innocuous as making himself a little more likeable for an important meeting or convincing his wife she likes him too much to gut him. Whether or not they feel fine about it in the moment, using Epic social powers on others means you're taking away their free will and forcing them to do something they wouldn't have without your magical influence, and most people with fairly normal morality are going to find that sketchy at the least, sometimes even if it's done for a good cause. Ethically conscious social Scions often have to grapple with the idea of their own automatic effect on others and how much of it is fair or honorable to throw around.

Of course, there's no law saying Scions (or gods) always have to be ethical by human standards, or even ethical at all. Jay Ortiz has no compunctions whatsoever about starting orgies and riots in his general vicinity, because he thinks those are good things society should be doing more, and therefore doesn't care if the people involved might have wanted not to be there; in essence, he believes that they aren't as well-equipped to make that choice as he is, so he makes it for them. Gods get in on that action, too - Eros is one of the most obvious examples, explicitly causing feelings in others that they might never have had (or wanted to have) on their own. Then there are the gods who don't really think about their social powers or realize that some might think they're being unfair (Baldur never feels guilty about using his Epic socials, because in Baldur's world, everyone loving him and doing whatever he wants is the natural order of things), and of course there are the ones who straight up don't care about other people very much and could not give less of a damn whether they wanted to be mind-whammied today as long as it gets them what they want.

And characters aren't static; they grow, which means their outlooks might change over time. Our prime example is Goze, who as a young demigod had no issue sacrificing other peoples' lives for his own or manipulating them for his own amusement, but who, after being shown what an almighty douchebag he was becoming, repented and became the king of guilt and remorse. A character who believes that social powers shouldn't be used to obviate free will might see that ideal erode as things force her to make difficult choices; a character who looks out for number one might experience a change of heart if doing so causes someone or something they care about to suffer.

Honestly, asking this question is a bit like asking if heavily physical characters ever feel guilty when they beat up or kill things. If they're classically good people, then yes, probably. If they have skewed outlooks or believe it's for the greater good, maybe less so. If they don't care about other living things much, they can sleep just fine after spreading their entrails all over a city block. It depends entirely on the character, how they use their powers and what consequences result from those actions.

20 comments:

  1. You forgot to add the mental scions who can think of a dozen ways to blow up the world or create a utopia before breakfast (Aiona) or guard you while you sleep or watch you taking a bath through the walls (Heimdall) with epic perception, or being able to think so fast they can almost see the future so they can prevent a catastrophe or use it to there advantage before it even happens (epic wits)

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    1. I actually didn't use them as examples because they're a different situation - there's very little in the mental arena that can be used to directly force someone to do something, as opposed to both the physical and social skillsets. Mental characters can think of a dozen ways to force someone to do something, but they still have to do the actual forcing at some point.

      Epic Perception is the most amazing invasion of privacy ever, but it isn't technically removing others' free will, just being an accidental voyeur. (Or, I guess, an intentional voyeur, if you're Goze.)

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  2. You have to be in the wrong to have a reason to feel guilty. The important parts of this are developing defenses against people trying to trick you into thinking you could possibly be wrong.

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    1. Being well rounded and "real" usually does that. :)
      But yes, lack of a soul makes beating people with socials easy on the conscious.

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    2. Hey the worst a social machine can do is make someone do something they don't like its not like they could say punch someone to death or anything its those people buying physical stats that are the ones who should have issues of conscience.

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    3. On the contrary, socials can be terribly concretely devastating. You could easily convince a man to kill his brother, for example.

      But yes, the physical characters totally have their own moral issues, too. Everybody does.

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  3. I think there is a pretty big degree of difference between punching someone in the face with physical abilities and physically violating them. You have to go out of your way to physically violate someone, but it is incredibly hard not to mentally violate someone.

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    1. There is? The law disagrees. And so do, I think, most people. Punching someone in the face is the definition of physically violating them.

      How is it hard not to mentally violate someone? Do you find yourself mentally violating people all day in your everyday life?

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    2. The law does not disagree that punching someone is on a different level of punishment than raping them, which would constitute a physical violation. Not even in your state, John, and the laws do vary from state to state.

      As for mentally violating someone, I do not have supernatural powers of persuasion that I subconsciously wield against everyone around me like social Scions do.

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    3. I feel like you must be trolling me because you are making even less sense. Physically violating someone is NOT the same as sexually violating someone. They are very different things. Physically violating someone is any physical contact that they did not want.

      Laws on physical violation vary slightly, but they are still basically the same. And many physical violations(including rape) are federal laws and NOT state ones.

      Unless you have no empathy, you know when you violate someone, and its not subconscious. I have been told I have near supernatural levels of persuasion, and I always can tell when they're on and working. You can tell when someone changes their mind because of something you said. And you can usually see it happening and if you want, stop it before it does.

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    4. Your wording in the last sentence might be misleading me, but just in case it's not, we don't consider social powers to be used subconsciously. Popping Engender Love or Overt Order to get someone to cooperate is no more subconscious than turning on Body Armor or frying someone with Levin Fury.

      The general effects of being very charismatic or very noticeable are always there, but unless a PC is very stupid or very deluded, they have generally noticed that they're treated much differently at Legend 8 with stats that make people just stare and drool than they were at Legend 3. It may be a set of powers that always has at least some effect, but the PCs still have an awareness of that effect and a choice about how much they want to take advantage of it.

      Using socials on others isn't always wrong, of course, but it's very, very easily abused, so social characters with strong consciences tend to find themselves in a lot of dilemmas.

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    5. I am honestly not trolling you, but I am using definition #5 of violate in dictionary.com and definition #5 of physical in dictionary.com. So in this case I am currently using the term physical violate to refer to rape or other similar things, but you are trying to argue that these definitions either do not exist or do not apply. I'm not certain which.

      But I think you are giving people, or yourself, a lot more credit for empathy than most of them actually have. I know lots of assholes in the world that honestly do not think they are assholes and they do not realize for an instant that they are acting in a totally creepy way.

      For Anne, I am mostly talking about the passive effects of social epic attributes but I could have sworn I read some fiction about your characters using powers on accident a couple of times? Either way, except for 'takes one to know one' none of your social attributes feed into your ability to sense motivations and know when you are being totally creepy and taking away the consent of the person you are talking to.

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    6. Oh, definitely, that's the point of the post above - people with consciences will feel bad, people without them won't. Having social powers doesn't affect what kind of person you are, what choices you make or whether or not you have a moral problem with the things you do. There are characters in our games with heavy Empathy for others (Sowiljr/Vala/Jioni, for example) and those with little to none (Aiona/Eztli/Zwazo), and they treat their social powers very differently.

      It's possible that there's something like that somewhere in the fiction, either because it's the first time someone's Scion powers have manifested (in which case they have no idea what's going on) or because they actually are too stupid or clueless to understand what they're doing. It's not the norm, but a few characters are so broken - Dierdre, who is actually clinically retarded, or Colin, who is autistic, for example - that they really don't always understand what they're doing. They're not the norm, though, and their once-in-a-while confusion shouldn't be construed as proof that power use is subconscious. It isn't. A good example of how deliberate it is would be Geoff using Engender Love at the beginning of this story.

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    7. http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Physical+assault

      Educate yourself.
      When you use two words together that mean a specific thing, you dont get to "mean" those words separately mean different things.

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    8. Seriously, what is wrong with you? Why can't you just leave the replies to Anne? Her's was just fine and everyone was content, and then you come in and belittle me?

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    9. Cause its my website? And I cant allow stupid to fester and live on it. If you didnt have a stick up your ass and werent so confrontational you wouldnt get belittled.

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  4. I have been nothing but friendly and conversational from the beginning, and even when you started attacking me I tried to stay friendly up until my very last post. I'm not trying to troll you and even said so. I'm not trying to be your enemy. I am not trying to get on your bad side.

    I seriously, genuinely, don't understand why you are doing this!

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    1. You seem earnest. So Im completely dropping my anger and assholishness for a minute on this post.

      I wish I could search through your old replies somehow. Im busy writing the rag game atm and cant pour through trying to find it.

      But I remember this not being the first time we've butted heads. This snowballs so I came to your posts here with a bit of "baggage" towards you.

      There were a few of them where you really got my goat.
      Generally, you seem to post a lot like I do. In that, you state your opinions as facts, and you sometimes dont provide support assuming that the reader will know what you mean.

      Im an extreme alpha male...I dont like people who are like me.

      So we butted heads several times, and then this time around my inner monologue went something like "again with this mother fucker? Im going to crush him". Which, was probably, over reacting.

      However, you seem sincere. So I propose we try to deal with each other in very specific ways. Before responding, lets both take a little extra time to think about what the other might have meant to mean. And when responding to each other take some time to write out exactly what we mean so there isnt confusion.

      This next part is just for you, and its only because of what this is. Here on the site, I get to act like my opinions are facts. Thats is only because this is a website about my opinions on a game I play where my opinions are in fact...facts. So my replies usually arent candy coated with, "it can be different in your game, or your mileage may very, etc". Instead, my replies assume that you know why you're here, and that the website is thousands of hours of anne and my hard work, and for us, in the realm of the site, factual.

      That does not mean that you cant have opinions though, but its important to state your opinions, and back them up. If your opinions are strong and we agree with you, the "facts" of the website might change to reflect them. However, until then they're opinions, and its important to know that.

      I think we can have great discussions about opinions, but as my players know(and all ST/GMs should have), there is a stopping point where eventually the ST has to put their foot down.

      So, please keep posting and dialoguing and giving us your opinion. From here I start fresh with my attitude towards you.
      And also Im sorry for being overly aggravatory.

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    2. I am also very sorry if anything I have posted in the past came off as being assholish. It really was never my intent and I've got to chalk it up to the internet not conveying tone of voice or body language.

      I really appreciate you taking the time to say what you did, and I will definitely try to make my posts clearer and more understandable in the future. I hope you have a totally awesome time with Ragnarok, and your two friends have an amazing send off!

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    3. Thank you much, and i will also be trying to be more clear and reasonable in the future as well

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