Today, Scion plus culinary adventures. We live life on the edge.
Question: Hey, I've noticed you mention you've changed up Cloud Sculptor before, but as a big fan of the Sky purview, that boon still makes me groan a bit. I'd be interested in hearing how you guys changed it, or the uses you've found for it.
Question: If you did break Sky down and split off a Thunder purview, what kind of things would fill the holes left on both sides? What else can Sky do and what can Thunder do besides blow things up?
Question: Have you considered the idea of allowing players to choose some form of specialties for purviews? E.g., Zeus specializing in the lightning powers in Sky, or Vayu in the wind powers.
Also, second question-asker, we have to apologize to you; after we finished and were halfway through editing this, we realized that we only answered the part of your question about splitting Thunder and Sky, and didn't actually talk about what different powers the two would have. Thunder would have powers pertaining to rain, lightning, thunder, rainbows and other storm-related issues (hmm, would Storm be a better name for that purview than Thunder?). Sky would have powers involving air, wind, breath, the sky itself (as in the firmament) and other sky-related business that didn't have anything to do with thunder.
In case anyone was wondering, we only lost a small percentage of our chicken due to overexuberant Scion-fueled pan-flipping, and nothing was set permanently on fire.
Personally, I never really thought about the sky purview being split up, but looking at it now it makes sense. I would personally not have a problem with a Storm Purview and a Sky purview. I know how some gods are both and it works for them, but Thor, Njord and some other ones tend not to deal with one or the other.
ReplyDeleteIf you do the write up sometime for Sky Purview and if you choose either way of splitting or not, may I suggest having Winds Freedom, the Flight one since you guys want it to be demigod, to be 4th level boon. Cause then we have Shadow Step, Earth Travel, Flame Travel and I think that Wind's Freedom would be nice there, if it must be moved.
That does seem like a reasonable place for Wind's Freedom to end up - it's a similar kind of a boon. Thanks!
DeleteCloud sculpting is great! You can gather up clouds all day long and make them do whatever you want. You can condense them until it rains, bring it down as a fog to confuse your enemies, broadcast messages across vast distances, mash giant banks of hot clouds and cold clouds to create uncontrolled tornados, and if you have the epic perception to notice charge you can manipulate the clouds to get uncontrolled lightning!
ReplyDeleteAlas, no, you can't do most of that, because other boons are doing it. Cloud Sculptor does not get you lightning or tornados - that's what things like Tornado Tamer, Levin Fury et al. do. Cloud Sculptor being able to do all those things would be insanely overpowered - suddenly it's the boon that does all the things in the entire purview! The boon currently does only what it says it can do, which is let you form them into different shapes for your own ends.
DeleteIt does have uses, though - you're right, you could bring clouds down to decrease visibility at ground level or write giant messages in the sky. It's just that it's kind of underwhelming when that and ephemeral art are all it can do.
It is pretty much obligated to do most of that. Once you stop cloud sculpting, physics takes over and you get the natural phenomenon that would result from the created situation. It's like using a boon that creates baking soda inside a bunch of vinegar.
DeleteCloud sculpting can get tremendous mileage with some research into meteorology. I honestly don't think the original writers studied up on the subject before they wrote that boon.
DeleteMeme Containing my Response
It's not that we don't understand how weather works - it's that this isn't how Scion powers work. The original writers probably didn't read up much on their meteorology for this boon, because they didn't intend it to be used in any way except to do exactly what it says it does - sculpt clouds.
DeleteThe point of Scion's boons is that they do specific, mythic and godly things; they don't do everything all at once because Science, because that's not how they'd be used in mythology itself. Sure, a Sky god can whip up storms and craziness from clouds, but he's using the powers that actually do that - Weather Husbandry, Levin Fury, Perun's Apples - not the lower-level ones that don't. If you could already do all those things with Cloud Sculptor, what would be the point of those other powers even existing?
Scion has to break elemental powers down into specific boons that do specific things - that's how all purviews work in the game in order for there to be discrete levels of power and influence. The fact that science knows something can be done doesn't matter if it doesn't make mythic sense - the ancient cultures that wrote these myths didn't know that tornados came from hot and cold clouds interacting, but thought of them as separate phenomena. It doesn't make sense for the game's world for powers to do things that wouldn't have happened in the myths they're based on.
Now, we'd probably let a few of those things occasionally happen with a really great stunt - after all, physics does exist and the PCs certainly know about it - but it would be largely flavor. There are no mechanics associated with it, so while we might let a Scion create a funnel cloud with a lot of awesomely stunted Cloud Sculpting, it would probably also not actually do anything meaningful in the scene other than looking cool. It couldn't have mechanical effects without taking over the real estate of several other boons and becoming severely overpowered.
And while flavor is awesome and we encourage stunting, a boon that only does that is discouraging. Which is why we're looking for ways to make it better without getting up in other boons' cereal too much.
That is certainly a well written response, but it does not manage to overcome the issue of physics. Maybe physics is the wrong word to use in this context because this is not exactly a science vs myth debate, but instead a cause and effect debate.
DeleteIt doesn't really matter who or what is responsible for the phenomenon. It could be science, it could be local rain gods, it could be tiny kami, or anything else under the sun that makes it rain when you squish clouds together. What is certain is that squishing clouds together gets rain. Verifiable and repeatable.
So as soon as you are done Cloud Sculpting, one of a couple of the below has to happen:
A) Physics/Gods/Whatever take over and squished clouds cause rain.
B) The clouds stay permanently stuck even though you are not using your boon anymore.
C) The clouds snap back to their original position, so you get no rain.
D) The clouds become something that are not clouds, but are still white and fluffy in the sky, without doing any of the things clouds normally do.
"Verifiable and repeatable."
DeleteWrong. When the sky god says it doesnt happen. It doesnt happen. Not verifiable, not repeatable. And once that is true. Everything else about it is thrown out the window.
None of the things you listed have to happen. And a multitude of other options could happen.
They could not rain, not separate and continue to be clouds. You only think thats not possible because of your science oriented human brain.
Then the alternatives you are suggesting should be happening all the time, everywhere, pretty much constantly. The whole world would be thrown into chaos where cause and effect for absolutely any natural phenomenon ceased to function in the way we know.
DeleteThis is the same kind of argument you have used against other posters in the past, regarding similar issues.
We have talked about the same thing, because it's very core to our philosophy of powers in Scion. Powers need to be A) mechanically bound and balanced for the game, and B) mythically relevant and sense-making. Cloud Sculptor is both right now, but unfortunately underwhelming; if we allowed it to do all the things you're suggesting, it would be neither.
DeleteThis is an issue across all powers in the game; while you need to allow players to stunt cool effects, you can't let those effects that duplicate more powerful other boons or knacks that they don't have access to. The game's mechanical framework falls apart if you do.
It sounds like you're leaning more toward a more generalized system of powers, kind of like the spheres in Mage, maybe? I've seen games that use systems like that for Scion instead. I've never been a fan myself, but it has more of the fluidity that you're talking about.
I'm not really leaning towards a more generalized system of powers, so much as I expect boons to obey the natural order of the world when not actively being influenced by legend.
DeleteFor example, if I use create earth to create Caesium then I expect it to react violently when I drop it in water. If it does not react violently then there should be an IC explanation for why, and unless it was an isolated incident then it should affect all Caesium everywhere.
A name for your relic entry? Reliquary.
ReplyDeleteAha, sold.
DeleteI think i have a better idea for the Title.
Delete"Divine Inheritance: The Book of Relics"
Just my 2 cents.
DeleteOoh, that one's good, too. We'll have to ponder!
DeleteAs to the Sky purview I agree with John. And as to the Birthright area it seems that Other Tom has beat me to the punch. Well played Other Tom, well played.
ReplyDeleteGood to know. Sometimes I can't really tell if I have a good idea or just an idea I personally really like.
Delete