It's another vlog day, and this week, it's all about the Norse. Let's hit it!
Question: How much bigger, physically, are the Aesir Gods than the non-Aesir Gods? How much bigger physically are non-Aesir Gods than normal humans? How much bigger physically CAN the non-Aesir gods get than normal humans?
Question: Is Odin as colossal of a jerk to his brothers as he is to... everyone who does not meet the criteria 'NOT being a dick to this person will help prevent Ragnarok'?
Question: Is it ever explained what happened to Vili and Ve? After the creation myth, they seem to disappear.
Question: Why will Baldur go to Hel when he dies? Shouldn't he end up in Valhalla (or at least in Folkvangr)? Isn't he everyone's favorite person ever?
Question: After looking up seidr & learning men were considered effeminate if they used it, I'm curious about how the Aesir view the three fate purviews and male scions who use them. I'd imagine Magic has a bit of a stigma but what about Mystery & Prophecy?
Question: What is the difference between Helheim and Niflheim. I have seen both being used as Hel's house.
Question: What happens when a Titan with Ultimate Stamina dies and comes back? Does the concept they represent return to normal?
Question: How do you handle the Norse goddess Idun? She's technically not either Aesir, Vanir or giant but as the daughter of Ivaldi, a dwarf or svartalfar. My personal take on it is that she short and childlike looking. Half because she's a dwarf and half because she's the goddess of youth.
Next time, we're going to talk about characters and PCs and fun stuff related to playing and running them. See you then!
Nidavellir is the world the lists have, at least the ones I've seen, if they count Helheim as being inside Niflheim.
ReplyDeleteThank you!!! That was totally the one we were trying to remember. That would be the cosmology with the clearly defined different realms for dwarves and svartalfar. :)
DeleteYour welcome, that's the version I tend to go with so that's probably the only reason I know off the top of my head.
DeleteCould you guys refer to any of the texts that tell of Alfheim?
ReplyDeleteIf it is ever mentioned as anything other than ''existing'' that is.
My understanding, at least, is that both it and Vanarheim exist as infinte summer and spring.
DeleteIn honor of Norse Day...
ReplyDeletehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9YqehGlg6m8
Do you guys think that in the history of Scion-verse, the Vanir at one point had their own PSP and somehow lost it when they assimilated into the Aesir? Jotunblut has always been kinda weird for me since it isn't so much a form of magic, like most other PSPs are, it's actually a function of Norse divine biology. They're part giants.. but then shouldn't Giants have Jotunblut? It's messy.
ReplyDeleteThey always have in my games. Norse Jotunblut is always more or less "tapping into the heritage of the giants I possess" whereas Giants have the real, "I actually am a Giant" Jotunblut. So instead of "Form of the Giant/Jotun" requiring legend, Giants are always just twice as tall. Always with the strength bonuses. Etc.
DeleteIt's a very useful tool for making Giants, but I agree with you that the main reason it's hard to justify is that it's biological instead of just magic.
Theoretically, the giants do have Jotunblut, but there's is just permanently active because it isn't diluted. They don't have to pay for Giant Among Gods, because it's always on automatically as a feature of being a giant in the first place.
DeleteThe Vanir having their own PSP is very messy, and we probably wouldn't delve into that area. They are also Norse gods, albeit with an intriguing backstory, and descended from the same beginning of the world as the Aesir, so while their myths treat them as a separate "people", they're not culturally different enough for us to want to bother.
Magic, Mystery, Prophecy, Animal, Fire, Frost... so many Purviews that an Aesir god can have to be looked at funnily.
ReplyDeleteTo be fair, this is a pantheon whose legends were more about wit, courage, and strength of arms than crafty elemental throwing or magic use.
DeleteGiven that the Jotunn and Vanir (personifications of wild energy and/or feminine attributes) used these powers more often than the Aesir. It's kind of like the school football team finding out you joined the male cheerleading squad. They might not mess with you, but they're likely to eye you suspiciously.
Nitpicking, but the Trimurti and the Trinity are not the same thing, and neither is the Trinity an Indo-European construction - it's basically a compromise solution to solve the paradox of the Old Testament revelation of God as THE one major player of the universe, and the New Testament revelation of the three "aspects" of Divinity. I could go into much more detail, but it's incredibly super complicated, and irrelevant to the questions at hand, and no one would bother to read it. :P
ReplyDeleteAs a theology major and future Lutheran minister, this is kind of my speciality, while mythology is just a hobby.
That being said, I can totally see Snorri inventing Odin's brothers to make it look like the Trinity. Or then again, if the rumours of Snorri being a closet heathen were true, then perhaps not. ;)
PS. I do not take offence, in case that was unclear, but others might. DS.
We weren't suggesting that they were the same thing, just that it's a repeating mythological motif. There's plenty of Semitic precedent for triadism as well, especially in Canaan with the Baal/Mot/Yam triad. Thank you for jumping in to clarify, though. :)
DeleteJohn's got a degree in theology himself, so I'm sure you guys could geek out on this one all day.
Wow I never even considered the idea that (non-Aesir) Gods were taller than ordinary people. I guess there's no reason they're not - make them literally larger than life - but unless something specifically implies "they're effing huge" (every Aesir) I just imagined the Gods to be average human height. Which I guess might have been giant for the people who worshipped them...
ReplyDeleteHonestly, I'm with you, I don't see a reason they need to be physically larger when they're powerful and present enough as gods. John suggested to me yesterday that he equates largeness with power, so maybe that's why so many people ask about the idea.
DeleteIt seems to me that equating largeness with power reflects how our English-speaking culture descends from the values of the Norse. Since you have to be bigger and stronger to be powerful, the Gods are therefore Giants, and the enemies of the Gods...are also giants. So we assume all Gods must be tall, when the reason we think they're tall is because 'our' Gods are the Aesir.
DeleteAm I off the mark? (I don't think the Theoi, the other big predecessor pantheon, are meant to be much bigger than normal humans, just more striking and imposing and actually powerful than we could ever be.)
It's also a common artistic convention (woo, art history!) that bigger = more important. Gods are typically rendered larger than life, but it was understood that didn't represent reality. It was a symbolic way to visually show their power, like the Greeks adding wings to Gods for symbolic reasons even if they'd actually be aghast at such a deviation from their standard ideals of perfection.
DeleteSo you have to decide how much symbolism in religious artwork is human license and how much is actual reflections of internalized symbolic biology of the Gods. It can be quite complex, because you then start asking if Anubis really has a jackal's head, or if that's just a symbolic way to represent his connection to death and tombs. Etc.
So if you want Gods to be bigger, there's certainly good arguments for it. Also some against. It's an ST call, as are most things that come down to interpreting what parts of myth in Scion really ARE myth and what parts are the version of reality that the game uses.
If I recall correctly, Egyptian gods were not thought of as anthropomorphic at all, and their depiction was seen as entirely symbolic, i.e. having the head of a particular animal means the god in question has certain qualities in common with that animal, etc. They are depicted as humanoid because they are being depicted by humans, essentially, and we depict things we cannot understand in ways we can understand them. ;)
DeleteSome archaeologists/historians/etc think that. And it might be correct. But we really have no substantial evidence in that direction.
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