John talks about the Storytelling class he just taught, trials and tribulations, mistakes and successes and possibilities for the future.
Sorry it's late. John makes videos "very pretty" and they take a long time. He will say that this is technically on time in the vlog... but he is lying.
If Scion 2nd Ed. is to Scion 1st ED. what Requiem was to Masquerade I’ll stick with your rules (which I’d probably do anyway).
ReplyDeleteAnd I will jump ship instantly! Requiem was a huge mechanical improvement over Masquerade, whether you liked the old fluff or not.
DeleteYeah, we seriously mourned the loss of a lot of cool story in the old world, but Requiem was a lot more mechanically sound and less of an all-fired mess than it was. I think my biggest worry is that I don't know if it'll go the same way because Vampire and Scion are such different kinds of games; it's the world of Scion that we're so in love with, and while better mechanics would be awesome, we would be very upset if they came at the expense of nerfing the power curve so that it was no longer at a divine level of awesomeness. Scion definitely needs a mechanics fix, but it couldn't fixed in the same style that Requiem was, if that makes sense.
DeleteBut it's probably not fair to judge a developer on a completely different game he did years ago when he hasn't touched this one yet, so we're still waiting to see what happens. :)
For Vampire, we just ended up still running Masquerade and porting the most critical of the mechanics fixes into it.
DeleteJust so you know Masquerade isn't really 1.0. Requiem would be 3.0
DeleteYou might want to look up at V20. The rules are better. But keep in mind that it's not supposed to be «balanced». The universe doesn't make everyone equal, and that's fine.
Oh, we know. We played through every version of Vampire. Our first and second edition clanbooks hang out together. :)
DeleteAnd it was made 20 years ago.
DeleteI love certain aspects of Requiem, like the new Nosferatu (with Nightmare), but the magic number «5» is too present. I also feel every book has «prestige classes» to make you buy the book in the shape of Bloodlines. Yeah, I really hate the way they made bloodlines, where everyone gets to be a magical snowflake. The coexistence of the covenants seems unreal for me. Some have totalitarian ideologies that would try at any moment to subdue or eradicate the others.
That said, I would probably buy the Scion 2.0, just for a core of rules that are better. But I hope they keep the «unbalanced» rules. It is a pain that Odin has 3 times the favored as Heimdall, and that gives a huge gap in XP in a long campaign, but it feels more real. But then, the child of Odin does have more heat.
A bit like the Lassombra, who have a powerful combination of powers, but they have more responsabilities then the others.
They did good on making the crossovers easy (altough they left out a bit Changeling and Promethean) I got to give em that. I don't usually crossover, but when I do, I like when it works mechanically.
DeleteWithout being a sold-out of Masquerade, I do feel that putting everything on a even level does seem like the flavor was steamrolled.
Blood lines are sooo bad......so bad. As is blood potency and many other things.
DeleteRequiem was fine for a game.
But I played vampire for 12 years straight. I played requime for about 6 months before I stopped. Obviously, one is much more enjoyable to me.
Requiem is my second favorite game after Scion, but in my defense I have none of the nostalgia factor of Masquerade since I started roleplaying in '06.
DeleteThe nostalgia is a big part of it, for sure. But I think the main thing that turned many people off from the new white wolf games vs the old ones was the paradigm shift from having a fleshed out world, to having no fleshed out world at all. Not only did it seem less interesting, but it seemed lazy. I know what they were going for with it, and why they did it. But as someone who had been playing vampire for about 10 years when it came out, and was very excited for requim, it was like getting your birthday balloon popped.
DeleteCame all the way back to this post to say that I finally got my hands on Vampire: The Masquerade 20th Anniversary Edition and I have to admit - Masquerade is a MUCH better game than Requiem. Like you said, I know why they made Requiem the way it is, and what they are going for (and it rocks,) but I really think Masquerade is just a much BETTER game.
DeleteAnd I wouldn't have sought it out had I not had this conversation.
I love that song. It's a great song!
ReplyDeleteAs a megalomaniac, I agree.
DeleteWhat about open workshops? Set up a skype channel or some other online meeting software and set aside a specific time, like 4 hours on a saturday. Set up a paypal people can donate to (you have one) and just be on Skype for that time, talking about Scion with people that show up, answering questions, helping folks that have specific issues.
ReplyDeleteI could see that. Would see if thats something people would be interested in.
DeleteI'm sorry if I take up too much time with my e-mails. lol, I'll stop e-mailing if its distracting. :P
ReplyDeleteAnyways, I want to do a class, but I never have the money. Bills and no real job other than being a student. I don't run a game, but I never had and I really don't know the best route.
You dont have to stop emailing. I generally dont respond when I dont have time and do respond when I do.
DeleteDidn't know there was other canadians following the blog ^^
ReplyDeleteI'm from Montreal, if they are close ^^
Papy, did you ever play World of Warcraft in a guild called Spirits of Durotan?? Random, I know, but I knew a Papy from there who was from Quebec.
ReplyDeleteRe: the class, I'm one of the students, and the class was fantastic and a ton of fun and I learned so much. John deserved a lot more money than we paid, for all the time and effort he put into making it awesome for us. Thanks John!!
I hope we can participate again in future topic-based lectures/discussions. Would be pretty cool :)
Nope, that wasn't me : )
DeleteI played it a bit a while back but I don't think I used that Nickname.
Funny coïcidence.
As the other student I have to say I would love to keep seeing John do additional classes, lectures or seminars, so worth the money and I second that he put much more effort for the money he got.
ReplyDeleteCanadians Represent!
Canadians everywhere. I think 10% of you read this blog.
DeleteJohn. What you need is to write pre-made advertures and sell the PDF's. It doesn't have to be a lot of money. It could be $20/pop. Also, I think you should hire yourself out to run games.
ReplyDeleteThe adventures, I can see them being hit and miss. Maybe once in a while someone will buy them, but it will not work out too well.
DeleteHiring himself out, I am going to be frank. That is one of the most horrible ideas I have ever heard. Its leaving a very bad taste in my mouth and there is few things that do that. I know that some GMs do get paid, but not by the players. A store or something like that sometimes pays an employee extra for doing that or something similar. What you are asking him to do is going against really what all RPs are about, having fun.
I'll give the example of World of Warcraft. In WoW, you have a monthly fee. That fee makes people, and it is documented, feel like they have an obligation to play the game. If he hires himself out as a ST to games, some of the players may resent that they paid cause maybe they do not like the game or maybe in real life they have something come up, but they already payed for the month. All around, it is a bad idea.
I am not saying John is bad at STing, never been in his games before, but I wish I could. They sound like fun, but I would never pay to get into his or anyone's game. Even if they were the best GM/ST, I would never do that, cause then it is really stupid. Also, I wanna clarify a difference. I will never pay the GM/ST, but if we are at Starbucks or a restaurant, I will pay for food or part of it so we can stay there. That is a different scenario.
I don't think there's anything fundamentally wrong or distasteful about selling people a high quality service, regardless of what it is, so long as there is demand for it. I just think it wouldn't be worth it for John's time, or at the point that it was it would be too prohibitive for most people to pay for.
DeleteWith all the prep work and say a 5 hour session each week, that's probably 8-10 hours of work. At a minimum wage job that'd be about $100 you could earn. To earn that from this, if you had 5 players, you would need to charge them $20 per week to break even in terms of opportunity cost. You could do it for cheaper, but then that's your own prerogative for giving up the opportunity to make money elsewhere with that time. Dunno if it'd be worth it for most STs, who usually have a lot of other demands on their time. If you found insane players who would pay that much, then yeah, turn that crap into a full time job :P But it's unrealistic, sadly.
Still, for a 1-2 hour topic seminar once every few weeks (assuming another 1-2 hours of prep), charging people $5-10, you'd break even with 4 people min., and profit with more, by minimum-wage standards.
Doesn't sound like money is the biggest factor, but I'd totally be down for paying for something like that once in a while, personally. I'm sure there's a lot of advanced STing stuff that could be covered, even beyond the scope of Scion to appeal to a wider audience.
Thoughts. And stuff.
I'd totally would do the Seminar. If it was on subjects I would like to learn.
DeleteMy enthusiasm that he sell his talents as an ST comes from the fact that I've played in ALL of his games for the last 3 years.
DeleteJohn has an amazing charisma that these videos don't do justice. His enthusiasm in running these games and patient ability to allow the players to craft their own stories instead of being lead in a straight line that's goal oriented is uncanny.
Honestly I wish you all could experience an ST like that.
John coupled with Anne who is a pedagogue of mythology is a mind blowing combination. You all see the fruits of their labors here on the site. But to be sitting around a table with them as I'm playing Goze, Kebo, Will or any of the other games is an amazing experience.
Sure, I recommend crazy things from time to time such as Buy the rights to Scion or Sell your skills as an ST to a willing audience, or you should add a Donation Button to the website. But I know I'd willingly pay a reasonable amount such as $20 for a PDF because I know the quality that they'd put out would far surpass anything the books offer.
This is a labor of love for them as they've said before. They don't want to come across as greedy. Hell Anne should be putting everything she writes across a publisher's desk as she has a vision for what she's trying to accomplish and quality of work is a large part of that ambition.
She doesn't because she loves it too much and would rather have people see it for free than miss it because they couldn't afford it.
That's what this blog is. That's what their games are for several of us, several times a week.
I've wanted to open a Game Bar for a few years now. Somewhere people can come and hang out, play games, so on blah blah. John would probably be my first employee if he'd want it and I'd pay him to run games for those interested.
It's not just Scion. It's VtM, It's Catan, It's Risk.
Gods I wish he could get paid for doing what he does.
Rant Over
I'm afraid selling adventures isn't an option - unless they mentioned nothing in the Scion setting and used none of its mechanics (which would make it hard for them to be useful!), we'd be in danger of violating White Wolf/Onyx Path's copyright by charging money for something using their game's proprietary stuff. We don't like being sued, and anyway we wouldn't want to take money away from WW/OP by accident.
DeleteIt's a lovely dream, though. :)
1. You lucky SoB, you get to be in his games.
Delete2. A game bar would be nice, there is something similar of where they have a game store with lot and lots of games for sale and a game room that costs 5 dollars or the purchase of ten dollars worth of merchandise(you get special dice if you do multiples of 10) to get in there all day.
If that was the case, then I would definitely be in that game, cause I have had to do it for other games. Its just, paying a GM for the privilege to do a game, I kind of hate that idea. Paying a store for use of their room and staff's time, not so much.
3. Patiently let players craft their own stories, instead of being forced down a single path. Sigh, such an idea would revolutionize the world, but sadly it is not here. I mean yes, the story grows naturally, but in a forced direction.
I remember making an Indiana Jones style character, though not a carbon copy and he differed in a couple ways. The GM put the character through stuff straight out of the movies, instead of being a little more creative. One can say though that's just because I made him like Indiana and the GM wanted to play that out.
That can be ok, what I find difficult is when the path the GM has set out for your character dictates how he should be. In a post this week, they talked about the premade characters from the books suffering from 'parent-clone disease'(direct quote). In a group I am in, its kind of that way. The scion of Njord acts like Njord. The scion of Hel acts like Hel. And the list continues on until you have 3 out of the nine not there.
Athena child does not act like Athena, but that is because he is adopted from Zues and he like to act like Zues, just without the conviction in his words. The Scion of Mannan mac Lir does and doesn't act like her father in some ways, but its ok. The scion of Bast does not act like Bast for the most part(he still holds secrets, but he goes about it very differently.) and I've gotten almost reprimanded for doing so.. Its not like a true punishment, its just that we disagree a lot and he constantly throws stuff at me to try and change how I act.
Personally, I would love the change of pace and be in his game, but I live on the West Coast.
"At a minimum wage job working 8-10 hours would make you about 100 dollars."
DeleteOh you Canuck. You lucky, lucky Canuck.
But anyhow yeah if for whatever reason I find myself in North Carolina, and I would not be intruding, the first thing I'd do (after whatever business brought me to North Carolina) would be hitting up J&A's to learn from the masters in person.
(I live in Philly, so this does not ever rule out a pilgrimage of some sort.)
All down this thread a ton of good, possible ideas. And a lot of frustrating, I cant quite do it yet ideas.
DeleteTotally wish we could own scion and publish stuff....or own a game bar. I've looked at pay to play STing in the past, and you guys mostly outlined why it just wouldnt really work. Its a neat idea, but cant really work out financially. The stable ST at a game bar type thing could totally work, but would require a game bar.
Also, tom makes me tear up a bit :~(
Thanks buddy
Kyle, gonna be serious with you here for a minute. You seem to complain about STs a lot. A LOT. I mean, we're talking about something completely unrelated in here, and you somehow managed to slip in a dis on both the other players in your game and the ST for your game. It would seem that the amount of energy you put into complaining about bad STs you'd be happy to pay for an ST you approved of and were happy with. The fact that it puts a horrible distaste in your mouth just doesnt make sense to me.
DeleteNot that I would want to be that ST for you, but it seems like you're very committed to the game, and really want to play, but cant seem to find good STs. So Im completely baffled that you wouldnt want to pay for a good one. If I was in your position, and that was an option, it would seem like the only logical conclusion.
Sigh, sorry. You ever meet that one guy who seems never to be angry during the time that you talk to him when something bad happens to him, but when you come over to his house, there are holes in the wall about fist size? I'm the same way. I like the game and I have one good gm that I do like, but I go through the slum games cause I truthfully have nothing better to do. My family life is almost completely gone, my social life is near non-existant and the only time I get out is for college or for one of two games.
DeleteWhen I bash on people, sometimes its as bad as I say and sometimes its just me trying to vent on here. When I first read it, I had some stuff on my back cause of paying and to me at that point, it seemed pretty bad. Looking back now, its not as bad a point, but I don't think I would do it. Cause I am near poor in a town that has the near highest unemployment rate in the nation. If I had a job, I wouldn't mind paying someone for a quality game, but I have done a couple paying games. Its not that they were bad, but it didn't feel like it was worth it. Then now I can't find a group doing games that I know and like.
I mean, there are DnD 4.0 games out there, but I could never go to that mess again. Then there are games I barely know about and wanted to join, but they were filled up or my shyness kicked in and I didn't.
If from anything, I am open to suggestions. I do need breaks from my family and school, but so far my options are slim. Not a really good computer, no gaming console, 2 game stores that let you play in the store though one is mostly minis and the other I have heard is slowly dieing.
So, in a way, sorry. I just vent on here a lot sometimes and I know I shouldn't because the voice in the back of my head says not to, but the majority of my brain kicks him aside and says screw it.
And I have thought that it may be me thats the issue, not others, but I can't take myself out of the situation enough to know if true or not.
Dont worry about the ranting sometimes. We all need an outlet.
DeleteA lot of life is about deep thinking and self reflection. Take advantage of that during unemployed time as much as you can. It'll go away soon enough.
Yeah, I do that when I can to see if I want to continue the path of being a college student, but it makes me want to continue. Basically, I get paid to go to school and it helps me out in the short run, but when I go for my Bachelors, its daunting. The amount of money required scares me. Just to get my BA, I'll be in debt big time.
DeleteWhat about one-off sessions covering particular rule sets such as combat rules (one I would totally be up for - the rulebook's explanation still baffles me) or presentations/discussions on teh individual pantheons and thier respective themes and key players.
ReplyDeleteGood for both GMs and players.