Do What You Do

Since we've gotten a bunch of these lately, here's a quick big-bang-style post with several questions about associations. Let's go at it!

Question: Why does Hera have Health associated?

Hera is strongly associated with childbirth and the health of children and pregnant women alike, which is covered by the Health purview. Not only is she one of the few gods to create children completely parthenogenically with no males involved (both Hephaestus and Typhon are said to be her children alone, although both also have alternative genealogies), but she was called upon to protect mothers and infants during pregnancy and birth and to prevent complications and diseases that might harm them, especially in her Roman guise as Juno. This is one of those places where an association comes more from cult associations than from a specific myth in which the association is demonstrated.

John would like to note that we're considering lately whether issues of childbirth and human fertility should contribute toward a Health association and how strongly, so if you have opinions, lay them on us.

Question: Does Epic Appearance really suit Tlaloc?

Have you seen him?

Tlaloc is famously crazy-looking, even among the Mexican gods, where curlicue-faces and bizarre giant clothing styles are a way of life. He combines parts of a bunch of animals related to his elements, especially the crocodile teeth and giant frog eyes, and is so visually striking that he's one of the few gods we can pick out across various different levels of Mesoamerican myth in different cultures and time periods. The Googly-Eyed Rain Monster - that's a real term, I didn't make it up! - is a mainstay of wacky Mesoamerican religious art, and Tlaloc, representative of both the devouring earth that must be fed blood to be appeased and the terrible storm that devastates the landscape and brings disease and damage, is pretty clearly intended to be terrifying in a way that many others among the Teotl are not.

Question: why does Hel have Epic Stamina associated?

We'll admit to this one being more of a stretch. Hel lives in an area that is famously inhospitable, so much so that even the gods avoid it - freezing cold and filled with debilitating disease - seemingly without any problems, and also survived being "cast" or "thrown" from Yggdrasil into Helheim by Odin (it went better for her than the similar fall did for Hephaestus, at least!). We were at the time trying to make sure all Legend 12 deities had at least four associations, which we later relaxed to three, so this one is by far her least solid.

Question: Why does Hermes have Magic associated?

Because, as Hermes Trismegistus ("thrice-great Hermes" or "thrice-wise Hermes"), he is the inventer of sorcery and patron of the Hermetic order of magaicians, who of course named their organization after him. Hilariously, Hermes T is probably a combination of Hermes and Thoth, but at this point they're almost inseparable in that role, so we found that it made more sense to extend the association to both of them than to try to split them into separate parts. It's likely that Hermes/Mercury's association with magic originally comes from his association with luck, a necessary part of his function as god of shenanigans, thievery and other things you need good fortune to pull off, but it eventually evolved into a full-blown magic association that survives to this day. Not every branch of Greek or Roman religion accepted Hermes T as being the same as Hermes, so you could set him up as a completely different god if you wanted to, but we figured in this case simplicity was better.

Question: Where do you guys get Animal (Swan) and Fertility for Aphrodite? I mean, I know it's hard to figure out powers that she might have other than "being really hot" but I can't recall a single myth of her doing anything with swans or plant life. I could see the Health Purview, since it has powers that affect sex and HUMAN fertility, not to mention Human Clay would be a useful power for the Goddess of Beauty (she can give you beauty or take it away) but Fertility and Animal don't make much sense.

Aphrodite is actually associated with the swan all the time! The bird represented light and beauty to the ancient Greeks, which made it an easy one to associate with her. Take a gander (ha!) at all these ancient images of Aphrodite hanging out with swans:

And many more. Some scholars think that these might be supposed to be geese instead of swans, in which case you could alternatively give her Animal (Goose), but we figured Swan fit with her aesthetic more. While we don't always give everyone an Animal association just because they appear with an animal in art a lot - sometimes the animal is just symbolic, or they have a myth that suggests it's not a good idea - Aphrodite is slim on associations like most Greek deities, and we figured she could use the help.

As for Fertility vs. Health, we're totally with you on the weirdness of that, but after doing as thorough a run through ancient Greek stories and descriptions of Aphrodite, that's where we ended up. Aphrodite is indeed associated with sex, but while Health does affect baby-making, it doesn't have a lot to do with the sex act itself beyond that, and so Aphrodite's strong connections to bangin' didn't really give her much of a connection there (although her Roman persona, Venus, is a little bit more linkable to Health as a concept). But the ancient Greeks connected human fertility and the fertility of the earth symbolically and even literally in many of their writings, so that Aphrodite is often praised as a bringer of earthly fertility despite not being a more classical plant-shaper. From Stasinus describing Aphrodite as eternally clothed in "crocus and hyacinth and flourishing violet and the rose's lovely bloom, so sweet and delicious, and heavenly buds, the flowers of the narcissus and lily; in such perfumed garments is Aphrodite clothed at all seasons," to the Homeric hymns stating that flowers spring up beneath her feet wherever she walks, plants turn up surprisingly frequently with Aphrodite. The reason is probably best summed up in Aeschylus' Danaides, in which Aphrodite herself describes the births of all the plants and trees and flowers of the world, and then claims, "Of all these things I am the cause," suggesting that because she is the motivator for sex which causes procreation, she is the root cause of all procreation of all life, even though she does not participate in the actual childbearing or mothering process.

Question: Shouldn't Hermes have Epic Dexterity and Illusion? Apologies if this has been answered already.

While Hermes certainly has decent amounts of both, neither was strong enough for us to want to give him the Ultimate expression of it. He does use Illusion occasionally, most notably in the tale where he makes himself a doppelgaenger of a man in order to drive him insane, but he doesn't do it all that often or all that impressively, so for the most part his trickery is probably the result of awesome Manipulation and Wits, and some low- to mid-level Illusion boons now and then. Dexterity doesn't really fit him, either; he does have the epithet "quick-footed", which helps, but for the most part the modern idea of him as super-fast comes from his role as messenger of the gods rather than any actual mythological association with speed of travel.

Question: Why does Njord have Fire associated?

Because of this passage in the Prose Edda:

The third among the Aesir is he that is called Njörd: he dwells in heaven, in the abode called Nóatún. He rules the course of the wind, and stills sea and fire; on him shall men call for voyages and for hunting.

Even more than Hel above, Njord suffers from the dearth of mythological information on the Aesir and Vanir. While his Water association as the god of the ocean is pretty solid, everything else tends to be like that - single statements that are clear, but don't have any other examples to back them up. Njord is supposed to be one of the most important and powerful of the Vanir, which is why he was traded to the Aesir in the first place, so we decided to give him Sky and Fire in spite of the lack of extra stories attached to them... but we feel like it's likely he may get demoted to a lot fewer associations in the future workup of lower-Legend gods. The Edda's very clear that he does those things, so we like them, but we also usually want more than one example, so thus is our quandary.

That's all our association questions for today - phew!

Grand Theft Relic

Question: Hermes is known to like to steal things. What do you think he'd have handy from his pilfering on any given day that would be interesting, infuriating or a possible plot seed? You can apply the same question to any interesting gods known to steal.

This is a weird question. It's like a sideways version of the classic "who would win in a fight" question we get now and then, because it's a theoretical question about stuff that you could do in a game, but not that is actually going on in mythology. The answer could be literally anything; Hermes is the god of thieves and has Ultimate Attributes that make him able to steal from practically anybody. He could have anything in his closet. He might have any plan that involves stealing an important relic, or he might be fencing stolen things for others, or his Sanctum might look like an episode of Hoarders with all the random crap he's accumulated. Or he might not steal anything particularly interesting or important, because Mystery exists and unless he has a really great reason to take something it just may not be worth the hassle of people getting pissed off at him when they find out. I mean, he got out of that thing with Apollo intact, but that kind of thing's tiring..

So really, the answer is "Whatever your story needs him to have". There's really no way to guess what he should or might have because that depends completely on what he's doing in any given story. The same goes for the other famous gods who sometimes turn thief - Eshu, Loki, Quetzalcoatl, Stribog and so on. They have whatever they might have stolen to further whatever plot they're in right now. Without knowing what circumstances they're operating under, you might as well ask what clothes they'll be wearing next Tuesday. We don't freaking know.

Psychopomp Sentiment

Question: I've recently come across a number of websites that claim that Hermes and Hecate were in some sort of relationship. Most of them have a distant Wiccan bent to them, and I was wondering if you could tell me whether the Greeks of antiquity had any mythic or cult beliefs that would corroborate this relationship, since it strikes me as very interesting.

For the most part, no, there's no context for an ancient Greek belief in Hermes and Hecate having any kind of relationship. However, there are a lot of reasons why it's a popular idea!

Hermes and Hecate are figures with a great deal in common: they're both gods of crossroads, psychopomps who guide souls in and out of the Underworld, connected intimately to the death gods of the pantheon and renowned for their prowess as magicians. Both of them appear performing the same functions in myths, most obviously when they are both involved in the myth of the kidnapping of Persephone, wherein Hecate accompanies and guides her in the Underworld and Hermes does so when retrieving her from it. It's not surprising that they're occasionally invoked together, usually in requests for both to watch over the fortune of livestock or calls to guide the souls of the recently departed - they do a lot of the same jobs, and two gods helping you out is usually better than one, right?

However, there are no myths in which they have a romantic relationship. In fact, there are no myths in which they actually talk to one another at all; they may both sometimes act as messengers, but apparently never to each other. Despite their similar roles, they also have no shared cult centers that we're aware of, nor worship practices that tie them together. Hecate and Hermes are close in concept, but they're not actually close as in ever having lunch together.

The idea that Hermes and Hecate are lovers is probably drawn from a single source: the Eleusinian Mysteries, which, just like their cousins the Orphic Mysteries, are prone to bizarre changes to mainstream Greek religion to suit their patron gods. According to Pausanias, Hermes had a fling with Daeira, an Oceanid and minor goddess of the Underworld, from which was born the eponymous Eleusinian hero Eleusis (for those who've been following the vlog, we talked about his son and Demeter's attempt to grant him immortality a while ago!). Daeira is otherwise unattested in Greek mythology, and her parentage as a daughter of Oceanus suggests she isn't particularly connected to Hecate, but some scholars nevertheless believe that it might be an alternative name of the witch-goddess. An even more obscure possibility is mentioned in Propertius' early Roman Elegies, in which he claims that another underworld goddess, Brimo, slept with Mercury; again, some scholars believe that Brimo might be an alternative name for Hecate, although such is never explicitly stated.

Of course, these possibilities are speculation, and both Daeira and Brimo are also theorized to be code names for Persephone, Demeter, the Furies, or actually simply lesser underworld goddesses in their own right, much like Hermes' other consorts who are usually nymphs or minor goddesses. If you're totally in love with the idea of there being some kind of psychopomp hanky-panky happening in the background, you could definitely pursue the mystery cult connection, but you're also more than justified in ignoring the very slim evidence. For the most part, the popular notion in Wicca of the two gods being consorts is based on their similar mythological functions rather than any actual historical connection.

Babes in Arms

Question: If Hermes was born at Legend 9, how did he succeed at all the crazy things he supposedly did at birth? For example, he doesn't have the stats to beat Apollo's Perception.

Hmm, we may have sounded misleading when talking about this in the past - sorry about that, everyone!

When a child is born to two gods who are not in Avatar form, that child is also a god, no two ways about it. That means it's going to be at least Legend 9 - but, when you're looking at the gods of ancient mythology, we think that probably doesn't mean that it's always Legend 9. Some gods do crazy shit their first day in existence, like Huitzilopochtli murdering literally hundreds of other gods on the field of battle, that are obviously not possible for a mere Legend 9 deity (as our formerly-Legend-9 players can attest, I'm sure); they couldn't have been Legend 9, and they probably didn't do enough in the first five seconds of their lives to go up a few dots in Legend, either, so it stands to reason that some gods are born higher than Legend 9.

Which begs the question of how you decide how high in Legend a divine child starts out, of course. Things can be a little bit freeform when working with ancient myth; you can look at what that god was doing his first day or two of life and what power level that suggests and go from there, and you can also take into account crazy stuff that might have been happening during his gestation. Gods that have strong myths surrounding their conception, gestation or birth are likely to be higher in Legend when they're born, simply because they already have some myths surrounding them even when they're in the womb. Gods like Hachiman, whose mother delayed his birth for three years because she was busy conquering Korea like a boss, or Athena, who sprang adult from the cranium of Zeus thanks to his devouring of her mother, or Lugh, whose conception had been foretold in a prophecy and required all kinds of magical shenanigans to come true, are probably more likely to be born at higher Legends than other gods, who would have to work their way from their less-exciting origins on up the ranks of power.

And yes - that does potentially mean that you could have gods who are born already more powerful than their parents. They're pretty easy to pick out on family trees, usually as minor gods with major children, or as people who have little fame of their own other than being the parents of someone important. A divine child eclipsing his parents' Legend is a concern that probably isn't lost on most gods, and one of the many reasons that they don't tend to have many children who are flat-out gods. God-babies are in many ways dangerous, and the fact that your son might be born savvy, powerful and crazy enough to dethrone you during the first year of his life is not a very comfortable idea for anybody.

This is all very excitingly terrifying for god-level PCs, who are often already procreating by the time they hit Legend 9 and suddenly subject to the same worries and problems. We've never had a truly divine baby born to PCs yet - but Eztli's pregnant right now and neither she nor Sowiljr used their Avatars to make the kid partly mortal, so whenever that blessed event occurs, they're in for a whole new world of craziness. Both players are nervous about what's going to happen, especially since they're often rolling dice to determine random factors about who it's taking after and what kind of power level it might be at, and they're dealing with managing this pregnancy through several Titanrealms to boot. And also Eztli keeps turning into a bat when she has bat things to do, which is causing Sowiljr many sleepless nights imagining a litter of baby bat-monsters all calling him Daddy and begging for a little blood. The situation is tense and everyone's pretty excited about seeing what might happen.

But I'm sure they'll be fine.

At any rate, to go back to Hermes, who started all this pontificating: it's totally possible that Hermes was born higher than Legend 9, and you could rule so if you felt that he was doing things that were entirely beyond the pale for a Legend 9 infant to pull off. But then again, I'd also point out that Hermes didn't actually pull off evading Apollo's perception in that story; Apollo was able to track the stolen cattle back to the cave where Hermes was living with his mother, recognize the baby as the thief and then take him to Zeus for judgment (and Zeus didn't believe Hermes' protestations of innocence, either). He's definitely still a precocious child, but it seems pretty clear that he wasn't rocking the Ultimate Manipulation quite yet in that story.