Question: Would you allow a stunt to let a Scion use Knockback Attack on a ranged weapon?
Yes! But only if the ranged weapon in question uses Strength as its damaging stat. Knockback Attack is a power that represents a Scion being so strong that when he strikes enemies, he can hurl them across the battlefield; as long as he's still using a physical attack that utilizes his strength, he should be able to pull that off. Shooting an arrow, throwing a javelin, using Flick or otherwise performing a range-based Strength attack against someone can be combined with Knockback Attack whenever the Scion wishes. Awesome stunts are encouraged.
Ranged attacks that don't use the Scion's Strength, however, like guns or crossbows, cannot benefit from Knockback Attack. The force of the attack in those cases is coming from a mechanism or the Scion's uncanny aim, not anything to do with how strong he is.
You can always put the Knockback Attack on the ranged relic itself. In that case the force of the attack from the mechanism would be supernaturally sufficient to blow people back.
ReplyDeleteWe actually don't do that anymore; duplicating boons and knacks on relics is a bad idea, because it devalues those powers and isn't very interesting. I could see some kind of custom power on a ranged relic that might add to or allow some kind of knockback, though.
DeleteI think it is perfectly valid to duplicate boons and knacks on relics, and there are a lot of justifiable reasons for a player to do so. When an already existing mechanic is in place that replicates the desired effect, the OP should feel free to use it.
DeleteHow is it perfectly balanced? It devalues what boons and knacks are and makes putting some of them on relics INSTEAD of buying them the most logical choice when designing a character.
DeleteYou answered your own question. Putting some of them on relics INSTEAD of buying them can be the most logical choice when designing a character. It's all about the roleplaying, not the powergaming, and if it makes the most sense to be on a relic then that is where it should be. Even if it costs you a few extra dots of relic.
DeleteMy point was the opposite. Relic dots are cheaper then knacks. You ARE powergaming by doing that.
DeleteIt's also just a bad idea, even if they didn't have differing costs. Putting a power that already exists on a relic devalues that power; it stops it from being a power that is part of a Scion's control over a purview or awesomeness in an Attribute and instead makes it simply a facet of a toy that they carry around. Scions who aren't willing to buy Magic shouldn't get free Magic spells by putting them on relics - that's unfair to those who do buy Magic, and makes for pretty lame relics to boot. Scions who aren't going to bother with buying Epic Intelligence shouldn't get to still use Intelligence knacks for free just because they put those powers on a relic.
DeleteRelics should have fun, awesome powers, but they need to not duplicate other powers already in the game. When they do, they become less fun and awesome - because you're not doing anything cool and unique, just copying some other power - and they diminish those other powers by making them not special things on their own. And it's also cheating yourself, too - your relic powers should be something awesome that nobody else without your relic is getting to do! Why make them boring by just duplicating powers anyone can get?
I see where the logic of including it in the books in the first place came from - hey, we already have these powers, it's easier to say you can put them on relics than to write a new relic system - but in practice, it's lousy. It is in every way a bad idea.
The only reason to keep that system in the game is for players to get away with having powers they don't want to actually buy with XP like everyone else. And that's pretty much just blatant powergaming.
Putting a power that already exists on a relic gives more opportunities for that power to shine or be relevant to the story, especially if it was a power that nobody was going to take otherwise. Relics become a part of the scion's story and their legend, and in no way merely reduces it to a toy that they carry around. If anything is being reduced to a toy being carried around then not enough emphasis is being placed on the importance of relics to the narrative of the story. It is not unfair to those who do buy magic because relics are more valuable than boons. One can be bought with xp, and the other comes from a limited pool of points that can only be replaced by storyteller fiat.
DeleteRelics should have fun and awesome powers as you say, but there is nothing wrong with duplicating powers already in the game. Not only are you probably going to be duplicating mechanics that have already been rigorously playtested, but you get more opportunities to showcase those powers in neat and interesting ways. To suggest that they diminish those powers is to suggest that the coolness of a power is a zero sum game, which is outright false in my mind. Just the same, suggesting that this makes them somehow boring is a discredit to the imagination that went into those powers in the first place, as well as the incredible ways that a relic might end up being part of a story time and time again.
The most important reason to keep that system in the game is for players to be able to cherry pick powers that really round out their characterizations. Powers that just do not make sense for the character themselves to possess but make perfect sense for a god from on high to gift, or for the character to have quested for it at great length. If relics were not a character supporting element there would be no need for relics at all.
I agree a lot! Relics should be awesome, fun, and allow powers to shine! The issue is that just putting a power - that the Scion doesn't even actually have, which is hardly making that power shine much - on a relic is basically the most boring way you could do that.
DeleteRelics get to have custom powers, which is one of the best things about them; if you want a Scion's powers to get to shine, that's the way to do it. If you want to make a power shine, enhance it with the relic instead of just duplicating it; make it a relic that grants bonuses to that boon, or makes that boon act in an unexpected way, or anything other than just giving out the boon by itself. For example, the relic that started all this conversation is much better as a relic that allows a Scion to use his Knockback Attack with guns instead of a relic that just has Knockback Attack on it; the first enhances and showcases one of the Scion's powers, while the second does nothing but give it to him for free while not making it anything special.
Really, if you're after showcasing a power, there's no reason you should remove the need to actually have that power in the first place - that's totally counterintuitive. If you want a power to shine in the game, making it so that players don't even have to freaking buy it or the power set it comes from doesn't exactly accomplish that goal - if anything, you're telling them that power isn't all that special and anybody could just throw it on a relic and be done with it.
And it most certainly is unfair to players with a purview if others have their boons on relics. True, that birthright could have had its points spent elsewhere, but that's not removing the fact that the players who spend time, XP and work hard on becoming awesome master of their powers can still be matched or trumped by dudes who potentially have nothing to do with their powers and just put it on a relic to get around having to do any of that. It's very, very cheap - which is why we removed it from the game long ago in our relic-making process.
I suspect you and we may have very different philosophies of this game, though - I don't know for sure, but your comment about cherry-picking makes me think you might not have seen our HR page, in which we note that you have to buy boons in order rather than randomly. Cherry-picking in the sense of picking any set of powers you want and doing whatever you want with the combinations yet, but cherry-picking in the sense of just picking powers for benefit without bothering to invest, no. So this might be an area where we just aren't going to agree.
I'll start with the last paragraph since it probably helps to clarify my position. My table uses your houserules. So that means each character has to buy every previous level of a boon to get powers. We're all totally fine with that because it makes more sense, but occasionally it makes perfect sense for a character to have a specific power and we can fill in those gaps with a relic or two. There is no house rule on your page against relics not being boons, so we default to the companion guide on this issue and it works great.
DeleteFor example, one of the other characters is a master musician who makes a habit of collecting extremely rare and unique instruments. Most of them are mundane, but right before we made the jump to god we were involved in a big war between gods on the mortal world for territory. The big showdown was at Jericho and enemies whipped out the Horn of Jericho and used it to crumble some of the defenses the players had built. When everything was done we made the final apotheosis to god, and the player spent his birthright points and some bonus points on keeping the Horn of Jericho for himself.
The storyteller charged him 8 dots, and the Horn of Jericho could use Thunderclap.
Could we have just used a custom power? Maybe, but nothing we could come up with has the vigorous hours of playtesting your boons have. So we already know they are pretty well balanced.
Was it thematically boring? Absolutely not. The Horn of Jericho has a rich and interesting back story not only in myth but also within the context of our own game.
Was it mechanically boring? No, we love using your boons.
Was it stepping on anybodies toes? No, nobody in our group is a Sky god.
Was this a cheap way to get a powerful boon instead of XP? No, XP is cheap and we have a couple thousand of the stuff. We've only got 15 birthright points from hero to god, plus whatever we spend out of our bonus points. That makes relics way more valuable to us than XP.
You only got 15 points for birthrights but somehow had 8 points at demigod? I call bullshit. You used the best reason not to allow boons on relics as your reason FOR using boons on relics?
DeleteI agree with a lot of things you wrote.
But even if you arent stepping on any PCs toes. You're stepping on the systems toes, and ALL the sky god toes.
Not to mention many boons are balanced around the legend rating you need to achieve to get them. Legend 5 scions having legend 9 powers is unacceptable.
Why are you calling bullshit? I said "We've only got 15 birthright points from hero to god, plus whatever we spend out of our bonus points".
DeleteAnd the example in question was Sky 8 being used by a Legend 9 character. Even if someone does not use your houserules, it outright says in the book that you can't pick boons higher than you could regularly use. So even in raw you can't be Legend 2 with a Purview 2+ relic.