Question: How do you feel about using elements from one or more gods from the same pantheon in relics for another god’s Scion? For instance: I am making a Scion of Tlaloc. One of his proposed relics is a macuahuitl that is embedded with blades that are sharpened scales of Quetzalcoatl, thereby granting him access to the Sky purview in addition to its other abilities.
Well, technically Tlaloc also has Sky, being himself a thunder-god, but if you want your Scion to be more related to Quetzalcoatl's windy style of sky-godding instead of his father's thunder and rain, that's groovy! There's absolutely nothing wrong with mixing and matching.
There's so much not wrong with it that I'm actually surprised every time I see this question (not that I'm picking on you, question-asker, you just happen to be here while I'm talking about it). One of the beautiful things about Scion is that it allows you to have any powers and personality you want; you don't have to do things the way Tlaloc does them just because you're his son. You could, if you wanted to, start as a Scion of Tlaloc with absolutely no purviews in common with him - not many do because it costs a little more XP to have an unassociated power than an associated one, but you always could if you wanted to. Even brand-new, beginning Scions don't have to follow in their parents' footsteps if they don't want to; they can be rebels from day one. You could even choose to take purviews that nobody in the Aztlanti has, like Frost or Industry, and that would be cool, too. Thunder may be in your blood, but that doesn't mean you have to pay any attention to it if you're more interested in the rays of the sun or the allure of prophetic visions.
Your example is even easier, because you're not even going for an unassociated power, just an associated one that you interpret in a different way. And that's another cool thing about Scion: you don't have to interpret anything the same way if you don't want to. Your father might be a god of thunder and flood, but, even if you also want to take Sky, you're free to interpret that in your own way, making yourself a representative of gentle, nourishing rain, breezes and wind, the separation between the heavens and the earth, or any other kind of skyness you can think of. The only difference here is imagery - in this case, taking on some of Quetzalcoatl's instead of Tlaloc's - and there's nothing wrong with that kind of creativity at all.
Besides, there's no reason in the game itself that that couldn't be happening anyway. It's pretty matter-of-course for gods of the pantheon to help outfit one anothers' Scions if necessary; sure, a few of them may not be team players, but on the whole the pantheon needs Scions to help them out, and thus they have a vested interest in them even if they aren't their own children. Quetzalcoatl probably wants Scions of Tlaloc to succeed almost as much as he wants his own to, because that helps everyone out, including him, in fighting the Titans. A few molted scales and feathers is probably the least he can do. (Not that this means that gods will necessarily outfit one anothers' Scions for free, because most of them definitely want to get all they can get out of other gods asking them for favors, but they still have an interest in helping out, even if they charge for it.)
Unless you're looking at gods that are specifically antagonistic toward one another (I wouldn't expect Osiris to do much to help out a Scion of Set, for example), most of the time it's totally reasonable for one god in the pantheon to lend some imagery, aid or power to Scions of another. The Storyteller might decide that that means a favor gets called in somewhere along the line, making it come back to become part of that Scion's plot in the future, or he might not, but either way, as long as it makes at least basic sense, there's no reason at all not to have Scions be related in some way to other gods in their community. After all, the more your Scion is connected to his pantheon from the beginning, the more he'll be connected to what they're doing - and that means more plot, more story and more fun.
I guess I'm a slave to the books but I was under the impression that you couldn't get a puirview outside your parent without a very good reason as all the gods jealously guard their purviews and require hefty prices for sharing power with children not their own.
ReplyDeleteI'm... not sure where that impression would have come from. I don't even remember it from the books (though it might be somewhere, so feel free to correct me if you find it). There's no reason whatsoever in the game mechanics or setting that Scions can't get powers other than their parent's; the only difference is that unassociated powers cost a little more XP. If you restricted Scions to only getting the powers of their parents, you'd be forcing everyone to be carbon clones of said parents, which is hardly much fun for those who might want to grow and develop into something else, and it's not particularly mythically accurate, either - most gods' children do at least one or two things their parents don't, and some have almost nothing in common.
DeleteSpreading purviews around doesn't make others less powerful - it's not like Vampire, where some powers are "secret" or "restricted" and therefore more powerful than others. All-Purpose Purviews are universal powers that bunches of gods from bunches of different pantheons have, not specialized things like Clan Disciplines that shouldn't be shared. Sky is always Sky; tons of gods across the world have it, and none of them are less powerful because others share their area of influence. Scion doesn't have that idea that all Scions of a certain type must be the same; it actively allows and encourages PCs to take on any combination of powers and mantle of influence that they want in their quest toward godhood.
Gods do, of course, get cranky when other gods try to take over their jobs, so Scions with Sky may find that they have to jockey for position some when they become gods and have to deal with other Sky gods, but that's hardly an issue starting Heroes need to worry about (and in any case, Scion is about becoming a famous god, so it's almost inevitable that someone's going to be mad about you stealing the limelight at some point). And that's actually another very good argument for why Scions shouldn't be restricted to their parents' associations anyway - otherwise every Scion in existence is going to find themselves either existing eternally in their parent's shadow at a lower Legend, or fighting with their parent over who's the top dog. Letting Scions branch out allows them to take on roles as gods that don't necessarily overlap too much with others' (though they can still challenge other gods if they want to, of course).
Gods probably often do require some kind of payback from the Scion's parent for that sort of thing, as I mentioned above, because divine politics are a very real thing and they can always use a future favor, nice new relic or whatever else they might be able to squeeze out of a fellow deity for their aid. But that's pretty normal; any god who doesn't have Magic is already needing to owe some favors just to get Birthrights bound to his kid at all, even if he made them all himself. There's no reason at all other gods in the same pantheon wouldn't want to help outfit another Scion if they had the time and energy; it not only gets them a probable kickback from the parent, but it helps the entire pantheon in the fight against the Titans. (And for Storytellers, those favors among gods are perfect story hooks for plots and events that involve the Scions later!)
Restricting APPs to only your parent's specialties doesn't make much mythic sense, and it hurts the game's exceptional array of options and paths without actually having any real benefit. There's no upside to it, and plenty more than enough downside.
Thanks. It kind of bothered me that you had to give the story teller a really good reason to have a relic that granted powers that didn't belong to your parent. For scions of gods with basically no APPS like Aphrodite that's a big problem, and one that was solved with Donni Rhodes by her basically ordering her husband to make him everything he needed. but being able to give a kid whatever he wants and then having the deal his parent made for the relic come back and bite him sounds like a better way to do things. I'll look up the books as soon as I can and get back to you.
DeleteYeah, but it does not need to be the parent that makes the deal. One of my character has darkness and he works on making it stronger, but no one in the Egyptian Pantheon(from core books) has darkness associated with them, so I had to go outside of the box. In the end, for me to learn a new boon from the purview, I go back to the person who gave it to me. Tezcatlipoca and for giving me these powers I do a blood sacrifice, that I offer to him. Politics though can be weird. Though I like the Climbing goggles that look kind of steam punk, with the glass made out of strong obsidian.
DeleteThe part of the core book where I got the idea of giving the storyteller a good reason for a birthright granting access to a power different from their parent is the "powers not their own" side bar at the beginning of the APP segment.
DeleteAh, I see! I can definitely see where that impression came from now!
DeleteI'd say you can play it that way, but you don't have to; all children of gods have power in their blood, and they don't all manifest it the same as their parents (for example, Dionysus has no purviews in common with Zeus, but that doesn't seem to be bothering either of them). We always encourage cool backstory, so having a reason to have a relic with some other boon on it is always a great idea - we've had that happen in our games ourselves (Mohini, for example, has Sky on a relic because it was granted by her fond uncle Indra). If you want to have a justification for your off-the-menu power, justify away! It can only lead to awesome story later! (And it's always possible that if you don't, the ST will just do it for you behind the scenes.)
But I wouldn't sweat it. Telling a player they can't have X power because they don't have a good reason why they'd have a relic with that on it - one of the easiest relics in the entire Scion universe to come by - is unnecessary and cuts down on the wide, beautiful array of purview options in the game. If you'd really like reasons behind all of those before you start, work with the player to come up with some or just assign them as the ST if they don't.
By the way, Kyle, I like going back to a purview's "teacher" for new boons as a flavor thing, but I'd never require it as an actual in-game mechanic. As I said up there, power's in your blood as a Scion; the powers of your parent are stronger and thus easier to learn, but that doesn't mean you can't learn the others. That's what the 4 XP versus 5 XP difference is there to illustrate. (But constantly bothering Tezcatlipoca is a lot of fun, so I totally recommend you keep doing it!)
is another good way to play it starting out with the powers of your parent and branching out through loot and trophies with different powers? That seems like a natural progression that you start the beginning of your career similar to your parent but access other powers as you play and gain stuff from your fallen enemies and political politics.
DeleteYes, you can definitely do that! There really doesn't need to be a defined system; lots of characters do it that way organically. They get a relic through the course of the game with a new power on it, or go to someone intentionally looking for one when they've realized they want to branch out; your character's the boss of when that happens. Also keep in mind that you don't need a relic at all to use boons once you hit Demigod (although you will be less good with them than those who do have a relic), so at that point the entire universe is open to you to start experimenting with.
DeleteGenerally speaking, most Scions start with mostly their parents' powers at Hero, and branch out at Demigod. They don't have to do it that way, and some do start with others or never choose to branch out at all, but that's where I've seen the bulk of characters fall.
cool. One thing about the game, your destiny really is yours. If you know what you want you can find your way to it. Like having a sun god child who does a one eighty and decides to focus on darkness (on the god's side and different from Kane toaka). I would like to see a character like that, a player who balances sun and darkness, but sadly I have no access to anyone who wants to play the game with me.
DeleteHow does this work on a more macro level when, for instance, none of the Aztlanti have Magic favored.
ReplyDeleteFirst, is it possible to have an Aztlanti Scion take magic as one of their purviews? Would their parent have to negotiate something outside of the pantheon?
Second, in this case, how do Aztlanti deal with binding relics if nobody is an uber magician? Would you say perhaps that someone like Tezcat has a decent amount of Magic, just not Associated?
Ordinarily I think the idea of intra-pantheon politics and negotiations is fascinating. I just don't see the Aztlanti as having the best foreign policy :P
Tezcatlipoca does have Magic associated. Don't do that to me - I thought I was going crazy for a minute!
DeleteBut they're still valid questions. :) A god technically only has to be Legend 9 to have Birthright Bond, so lower-Legend gods with Magic can perform this function for their pantheons as necessary. A better example might be the Anunna; they don't have anybody with Magic among the Legend 12 set, but they have a ton of minor gods running around, some of whom probably have Magic. In those cases, it's an extra layer of politics - who's pulling those less important gods' strings, and whether or not you need more than one set of favors to be involved. And gods who don't have the Wyrd still might have up to level 8 Magic, so finding Legend 12 gods who are mages instead of Mages could still get the job done.
In a pantheon with absolutely no Magic at all, you probably would have to go outside to someone else, which would doubtless be more expensive than your normal intra-pantheon dickering... but that probably doesn't happen too often, since it would require a pantheon to have either nobody with Magic at all or nobody who was good enough at it to succeed. The only one I can think of that might have that problem is the Amatsukami - Japan really just doesn't do magic and Fate that way, so they might need to call in favors or go politicking with nearby China or India to get things done.
(Also note: you only need to be Legend 9 to bind new Birthrights to Scions, but you need to be Legend 10 with Steal Birthright if they previously belonged to someone else and have to be severed from them first.)
I'm with you, though - the Aztlanti definitely aren't really big on foreign policy, unless that policy involves quests and bloody bonfire celebrations afterward.
Oh! This may be a good time to point out that in your Quick Reference section for Aztlanti, Tezcat doesn't have Magic listed. I was there last night working on John's homework assignment :P I do see that in his full write-up it's included though. I tend to make frequent use of the quick reference myself.
DeleteThat all makes much more sense. Thanks!
Eff, thank you! I ran to his page and the general associations page just to check and they were both right, but I didn't think to check the QR. I'll go through it this weekend and try to make sure there are no other accidental surprises in there.
DeleteActually, when I asked the question I had every intention of the Scion being a full blown lightning throwing, thunder clapping machine of destruction. I just wanted to have the scales because I didn't like the idea of obsidian blades (too brittle) and the sky association just seemed too good to pass up. My only hangup was that it belonged to (or, in this case, was part of) a different god. I didn't know if that would cause an uproar or not.
ReplyDeleteIn more recent news I have abandoned this idea for a Jade Sacrificial Knife.
Jade Sacrificial Knife-Relic 5: 1 3-dot Unique (Double the Legend award given by an Itztli Boon if the blood resulting from the ritual is taken by this blade.) and 2 Purviews (Death and Sky).
Doubling Itztli is kind of a thorny thing to do. Once you hit Demigod, it breaks like... well, like obsidian.
DeleteSpeaking of obsidian, Tlaloc has Earth, and he can just MAKE you some obsidian that could cut through titanium. One of those maquahuitls isn't going to break unless the plot makes it necessary.
If you want a Tlaloc-appropriate weapon, I reccomend an axe. It's more Maya-based, since according to them, Chac made thunder by chopping an axe at the sky, but Tlaloc's the only true pan-Mesoamerican god (Quetzalcoatl comes close, though) so the Aztec gods are likely used to it.
First of all, I love the "thorny" imagery. That was a stroke of genius.
DeleteSecond of all, do you have any suggestions as to what would be a better fit than doubling Itztli?
Good advice from Griff - we tried giving Scions the double Itztli thing once, and it did indeed break at Demigod. It was just a little too awesome, all things considered.
DeleteHmm, perhaps if you're going to be a big combat monster, something that adds to your Combat Sacrifice - say once per day you can use that for double effectiveness or something?
Sorry for being a bit late to this question but I thought I'd throw this out there as it is somewhat related to this post:
ReplyDeleteHow do you feel on allowing players to customize some of their favored abilities and purview?
In Setting Reason: There is a small amount of mutation when a scion inherits their parents abilities or (if they were adopted) they still retain some of their original parent's abilities.
Meta-Reason: My group just got started Scion and were used to some customization from our Exalted games.
It depends on what you mean by customize, really. The great thing about Scion is that the stunting system takes the place of almost all need for customization; simply stunt your boon in your own unique way when you use it. That we're totally on board with, all the time every day!
DeleteIf you mean actually changing how the powers work, though, or writing custom powers for individual PCs, no, we don't do that. Scion is about players getting to use the huge, universal power that the gods do, and most of that custom stuff is better off as a Birthright power or a stunt if it doesn't need mechanics behind it.
My apologies, I should have been more clear. I was actually talking about allowing the players some choice over which purviews and attribs they got as favored during character creation.
DeleteDetails:
I'm a bit hazy on whether it is really appropriate to bring up other table's house rules here or not so if I am out of line please tell me and I'll stop.
My group really just started our first Scion game about a month ago and didn't like that all the favored skills/purviews/attribs came from their parents with little input from the mortal's personal inclination.
So our ST came up with this:
1) At Character Creation, Players may drop any three abilities from their divine parent and replace them with their own choices.
2) At Character Creation, Players may treat upto 1/3 of the Purviews offered by a divine parent as optional, for a maximum of 3. So 1 purview will be optional if the god offers only 3, 2 if they offer at least 6 and 3 if they offer 9+.
The above is subject to the following restriction:
- Players may not choose a purview opposed to their divine patron. (I.E: Scion of Hel cannot get Fertility and a Scion of a Sun God may not choose Darkness this way.)
- Patheon specific purviews may not be replaced in this way, not even for an all-purpose purview.
- Special Purviews may not be chosen (They can be dropped, just not chosen as a favored) without the permision of the ST.
- Epic Attribs may only be swapped for other Epic Attribs and similar restiction for Purviews.
To be honest we are currently debating whether to switch over entirely to your system or not (which we found after we started) but as of right now our ST decided to stick with our current house-rules at least till the current story ends.
Ah, I see! Sorry for the confusion! And don't worry about bringing up other house rules - we won't always agree with them, but that doesn't mean you can't talk about them. :)
DeleteWe don't allow that kind of parental power mix-and-matching, mostly because of the way that associated powers (Abilities, Attributes or Purviews) works in Scion in the first place. While all Scions, as nascent gods, can learn any power they choose, some run more strongly in their blood as a result of their parent; they're sort of supernaturally predetermined to be better at those things than others, the same way a human might take after their parents' genetic traits. It doesn't make sense for Scions to randomly be better at skills their parents don't have; those things don't run in their divine blood. A Scion of Hel can always buy Illusion if she wants to, but since Hel herself isn't a goddess of Illusion, she has no natural predisposition toward it.
The only difference between favored and unfavored purviews and abilities, after all, is a small XP difference; XP is the measure of how quickly your character learns new things, so a favored power costing less XP just means it's a little easier to learn than most things. No Scion of any god should feel constrained to only buy the things their parent is good at, but it's still easier for them to learn those things if they want to. Being the son of Zeus puts thunder in your veins, but it doesn't make you any better at commanding the ocean, so there's no reason a Scion should be able to "switch" their associations like that.
It's when you become a god yourself that you get to switch associations to what you personally choose to do. Which is a pretty awesome feeling!
Incidentally, we stopped treating the Special purviews - Magic, Mystery and Prophecy - as any different from APPs some time ago. There doesn't seem to be any real reason to do so; the only difference in the original rules was that they had to be bought in order, but we do that for all purviews anyway.
Hello,
DeleteYou sound very reasonable, well spoken and intelligent. So please do not take this as offensively as it sounds.
But your system sounds horrible. It might be ok with the players. But it loses so much of the reason you're playing scion. The attributes of your parents that you inherit represent the divine blood you receive from them. Changing those out not only doesnt make sense, but makes you so much less like your parents and so much more like a random set of powers used in a game.
Not that children shouldnt be different from their parents, because they often should, and there are some great stories about children who are, but the things inherited from their parents should be easier for them.
I really urge you to switch to not changing a scions inherited stats as soon as the current story is over.
In addition...special purviews are really no different from normal purviews....treating them differently seems a little confusing.