Question: What is your opinion on Quirinus, the deified Romulus and Scion of Ares? I noticed you have his associated attributes/purviews as Ares' on the site. Where does he stand within the Dodekatheon?
I was confused for a minute here, because I was like, "Quirinus isn't even on the site anywhere," but then I realized that you meant that Ares' associated powers seem to be similar to Quirinus'. That's a coincidence; Ares was one of the hardest people to stat, and he ended up with that setup because of his own associations, not his son's.
But, Quirinus himself! John and I have had many debates about Quirinus, who is statted up as a playable god-parent in the World at War section of Scion: Companion. John is always the hardball player, while I always want to keep as many of the original books' parents in play as possible, but in the end I had to agree with him; while Quirinus is totally cool and all, he probably isn't Legend 12.
As Romulus, Quirinus does a lot of cool stuff - surviving being reared by wolves! Founding badass empires! Killing all the dissidents! Zooming off to Olympus in a hurricane! - but he does it all before becoming a god, and it's all stuff that is pretty standard Hero- and Demigod-level fare. He never does anything as the god Quirinus nor does he have any really interesting attributes or rituals associated that we remember today; he enjoyed a very strong cult following for a while, but it faded and became less important long before even the Roman Empire itself fell, let alone surviving into the modern day. He's a fantastic example of a Scion of a bygone era who had a whirlwind career up to Legend 9, but as far as we can tell, he proceeded to pretty much stay there.
So off he went to the bin with the rest of the lesser Roman gods. He's probably Legend 9 or 10, and would make a great NPC for any PCs involved or interested in the Roman pantheon, but he's just not on par with folks like Mars, Venus or Jupiter. I imagine he's probably one of Ares' favorites, and he probably lords up his foundation of the great city of Rome; he might also be an ally of Apollo, who theoretically also helped found Rome by sending of Aeneas (a Scion of Aphrodite, who might also be down with the Romans!). He'd be an interesting place for some Roman dissension against the more popular Greek gods.
Oh, I like this post! It actually got my brain working and reminded me that I need to do another pass on turning Civitas into a Roman PSP.
ReplyDeleteOn a different, but similar note, y'all's Ares has always sorta confused me. You dropped his Epic Stamina, which I'm fairly sure he only had because it was very "warrior-like", so I can get that. However, you gave him Animal (Wolf) which I don't get unless you're pulling more from his Mars aspect. And if you pull from Mars, wouldn't he also have Guardian and Fertility?
At various points, I vaguely entertained the idea of Ares having Chaos, but while he probably has a lot of Chaos, the longer I ponder, the more I'm fairly sure he wouldn't have the Void. Especially if you use his Roman aspects.
This one just occured to me. It may not be rational, but it could be. It seems that WW defaults to giving all "love gods" the entire range of Social Attributes. If there was one war God who deserved all three Physical Attributes, couldn't it be Ares? ...maybe Nergy. But potentially Ares.
Yeah, ares is super difficult. Nothing really fits well. Same problem with Aphrodite.
DeleteIf you're a war god, you get war. That shouldnt automatically mean you also get physical traits. We want to see them in stories actually being badass with those traits, or at the least other gods talking about how badass they are with those traits.
Sadly, I really don't think Ares can aspire to more than one of the Epic physicals. He definitely doesn't have Stamina (see Aynie below - he's kind of a wuss) and I just don't see any reason to give him Dexterity. Hermes has it because he's described repeatedly as incredibly swift etc., but Ares doesn't really have anything like that, and the fact that Dex is the stat used for hitting things just isn't enough for me to feel like it's something he has the Ultimate in.
DeleteThe Animal (Wolf), I believe, does come from Mars' associations, but we've been talking a lot lately about possibly replacing it with Fertility for the farming connotations. I can't recall why we didn't do that originally, but we've been examining it.
Ooh. Chaos I hadn't thought of, but that might actually be a good fit for him; after all, the Greeks didn't like him specifically because he was so chaotic and crazy in spite of his ass-whupping powers, which is why Athena usually comes out on top. I couldn't see him as a trickster-type I-love-causing-chaos figure, but more of a primal causes-chaos-just-by-existing kind of dude, like Set.
I really like the idea of Civitas (or similar concepts) as a Roman PSP. They really have a totally different set of values from the Greeks in a lot of ways, and I think it fits better.
See, I LIKE him with Chaos.. as a Greek. But then as a Roman, he's totally ANTI-Chaos and all about some farms and guarding some borders. So I feel like I have to go one way or the other.
DeleteElsewise, I end up with him getting War, Guardian, Chaos, Fertility and I feel weird..
I finally did end up giving him all three Physicals, War, Guardian and Fertility because I leaned a bit more Roman with him so that he was a little more approachable. The points that Aynie and y'all raise about his wussitude are making me reconsider the Stamina.
Dexterity, however, I'm sticking with. While in the grand mythological sense, he doesn't mesh up with the typical mental image of "dexterity", he is all about kicking some serious butt all over the place, especially as Mars. In Scion, if you want to be good at combat, you're gunna have to have Dexterity. It's required for Parry, Dodge and Hitting Things. It's rather essential. Sure, he could compensate with Arete and War and Animal Aspect (Wolf) (maybe)... but that doesn't feel as "real" as just him having the actual stat itself that makes him good at hitting things. In Scion, that's Dexterity, not just Strength for hitting things really HARD.
We stick by a hardline mythology > mechanics standpoint.
DeleteArtemis is constantly described and shown to be dexterity masters. There is no chance that ares is her equal just because hes "good at fighting."
Also...he cant dodge attacks from humans....
He isn't as fast as she is, or as accurate with a bow, but that could be represented by him not having the faster-running Knacks, not having Marathon Sprinter and not having all her ranged combat Arete (he's more of an in-your-face dude) and ranged-combat Knacks.
DeleteTwo people with Ultimate Dexterity can express it in very different ways. That's one of the things I really love about Knacks. They give you so much freedom to specialize.
However, I also get twitchy when Gods have less than five Associated Powers. The Greeks are the biggest offenders here, because as y'all've noted before, their gods are really, really narrow conceptually. In many other cultures, Gods are great and powerful figures that do all kinds of different things. The whole idea of having a God who is just a God of one single thing, like War or Love, is very, very Greco-Roman. I have a hard time coming up with examples from other cultures, actually. Maybe Egypt, but even then not really very much.
So, for the Association-impaired Gods like Ares and Aphrodite, I don't feel the need to have as much backing when giving them Associated Powers. Not compared to dudes like Tezcat and Quetzalcoatl and Odin where they've got a list of ten billion things they do, and you really have to prune it down to get a reasonable number.
But that just doesnt actually happen. Check our god character sheets. If they have 8 epics in something they have a Lot of the knacks. Before they have the ultimate they'll have all the knacks. Its just not possible to have those traits that high and just be missing a few knacks for no reason.
DeleteIm not sure why you get twitchy when gods have less associated powers? Why is that? I see no reason for it.
DeleteYeah, I remember you guys mentioning that "must have all Knacks" thing at that place with the laughing and the chair that tried to kill me. It confused me. Then I thought about it and was like "Hmm." But, no, it still confuses me.
DeleteI don't think its possible for every God to have every Knack because there can (should) be an infinite number of Knacks. Some Gods will have ten thousand Knacks about Swimming, but none at all about flying because they don't fly. Maybe they don't even have any about dancing because they don't dance. Or they'll have a billion Knacks about being the most awesome hunter-tracker in the World, but none at all about being psychic and reading minds. They're still masters of Perception that blow everyone else away, but they blow everyone else away within their own specialization. They don't have to be the best at swimming, dancing, flying and running. They can just be the best at running.
I really don't think Aphrodite has bothered to invest heavily in Negative Epic Appearance Knacks. There's never any stories about how fugly she is. Ever. She doesn't tend to scare people off, and if she does, it's probably using Charisma, not Epic Fugly. So, she wouldn't even have all the canon Epic Appearance Knacks, but less the metric buttloads that could be written about Fuglyness and Horrification.
I'm the same way about Purviews. Magic is a great example, where there are probably no Gods at all that have every single Spell possible. Again, with there being a quintillion possible Spells. There are some Gods I can't ever, ever see using any of the negative effects of Health, and some I can see having ONLY the negative aspects of Health. There are Sky Gods who just aren't at all related to Thunder and Lightning, so they'd probably have their own Cloud-and-Air Boons instead of things like Storm Augmentation and Levin Fury.
As to why I get twitchy about 5 or fewer and 8 or more Associations, I'm fairly sure it's just a balance thing. I don't like a huge variance in power, and the XP difference will eventually add up to something significant. It just doesn't bother me as much when one God's kids only get 5 things Associated vs another with 8 Associated. It does bug me when someone gets 3 Associated things and someone else gets 13. Aphrodite vs Odin has exactly that ratio. Odin's kids get an XP break on four times as many things. Four times! Just bugs me.
Im not saying they have them all because they have to. Im saying that our gods(the pcs) have them all, because if you are amazing at something you start picking up all the knacks. Why wouldnt you? Itd be almost insane not to.
DeleteThere cant be an infinite number of knacks....that just isnt a concept that is feasible. Why would there be millions of knacks for tracking? The ones we have are rarely used because if you're god of perception theres nothing that you cant track anyway.
Odins kids dont get that though. Thats like saying aphrodites kids get 20 psps cause of arete. They dont. And our houserules cut the odin thing down to 8 anyway, so its only a difference of 5 for us. Which if you havnt made that change yet, you should.
Everytime I read your any stuff about gods needing to be balanced, all I can think is those people need to play with better players. God choice should be about the story, and you should balance as much as possible, but dont ever bend the world of the game to make the rules fit....thats just bad gaming. Itll never be perfect, but it shouldnt be something you feel you have to really worry about. Over time its really just a couple handfuls of xp difference, and neither pc should be parent cloning anyway.
I think it's kinda insane to assume all the Gods would learn all the Knacks. The whole "why would Aphrodite learn the Fugly Knacks" and "why would Athena learn the Telepathy Knacks" is my big thing. Also, it makes everyone the same if everyone with Dexterity Associated has all the Knacks. Some of them are runners, some are not. Some of them have great aim instead of great speed and some of them are weavers with nimble fingers.
DeleteXP you're dumping into Knacks just to buy them because.. well, I can't really figure out why Aphrodite wants to be fugly, that's XP she could be spending on more theoretical hotness. Why would Athena burn XP on telepathy when she could be using that to become smarter?
There may not be a literally infinite number of Knacks, but there are surely dozens and dozens for each Attribute, some of which are just straight up out of place on the character sheet of certain Gods, despite them being all about certain parts of that Attribute. I like that, I really, really do. It creates significant, meaningful differences between two Gods that both have an Ultimate Attribute or a Purview Avatar. It lets them specialize. If everyone has everything, everyone's the same. Not as fun. Especially for PC's, where they're literally on a budget. The XP they're burning on Knacks or Boons that don't really fit their specific concept is XP they could be using in other Attributes or Purviews, or on more Knacks and Boons that take their area further.
Aside from some annoyances with the REALLY extreme Gods like Odin and his 13 Associations or Aphrodite and her 3, my players don't mind at all when someone has more Associated Powers than they do. Doesn't even register. It doesn't bug me the very few times I get to be a player. It only bugs me out of game-context, when I view the system as a whole, devoid of specific characters. Then it bugs me because it just feels off.
I didn't implement your pick-8 rule, I just went through the Gods that had more than 8, peered at them, and realized most of those things didn't really fit at all and got rid of a bunch, bringing them down to 8. The only ones that gave me REAL trouble were Odin and Tezcat because they really do have a buncha shit going on. Crazy buggers. And the dudes with 3 or 4, for the most part I was able to dig around and find something that worked. It really helped adding in Sound, Wealth, Forge and Emotion, though.
That isnt what Im saying though. Im saying that our PCs who are low god already have most of the knacks, and before god im almost certain they'll have all of them in anything associated. Im not saying its theoretical. Im saying that Im watching it happen all around me.
DeleteBut back to theory...ultimate means...ultimate. There is no other higher then you at that thing. A 5 xp knack really really should not change that.
I've got to agree with Source J on this one. While John's players might be the kind of people who want to spend their XP on buying a bunch of knacks, some of them are probably not very thematic and there is no reason why certain gods would ever buy certain knacks.
DeleteAphrodite has no myths bout being ugly, nor does she have any interest in being ugly, so it makes no sense for her to spend experience on being ugly. Fatebonds probably even siphon ugly knacks away from her.
Ares wouldn't have Epic Stamina for the two major times he's wounded in the Trojan War. One by Athena which knocks him unconscious thanks to her throwing a rock at his head; and the other by a mortal soldier and that one sends Ares complaining to Zeus to fix it.
ReplyDeleteI see him have Epic Stamina in the 4-6 range, but definitely not associated with him
Yeah, that's actually exactly our reasoning - if Ares can not only be wounded by a mortal, but wounded severely enough that he can't deal with it himself, he's not rocking the Ultimate Staminas.
DeleteHaha oh the Greco-Roman Pantheon. Of all the things I LOVE about JSR, this is the one that I'm still upset about. Anne up there says Hermes has Ultimate Dexterity - he does not, actually, have ultimate dexterity on his page. I've always wondered why he doesn't. I figured it was the matter of Hermond (he has Psychopomp, that makes him faster than average and can teleport, but he's not physically fast...which I disagree with, but could accept.) I understood Ares only having Strength (I always wondered why he had Stamina!) but I REALLY like the compromise of adding more of Mars' purviews than the current set-up (I look at him and think "Quirinus," not "Ares" and while Quirinus is his Scion I feel like that's like looking at Zeus and seeing Hercules.) I guess it comes down to whether or not you play the Dodekatheon as the "Greek" Gods or the "Greco-Roman" Gods. If it were strictly Greek, Ares would have Chaos. Definitely. But if it's both, then he should have Guardian and Fertility too. Also, I think Aphrodite has a case for Guardian as well. I recall, at one point, Aphrodite actually physically zooming down from Olympus to pull Aeneas from the battlefield. Also, why did you get rid of Aphrodite having Health for Fertility? And why did you get rid of Zeus having Stars? So many disagreements on the D, I just felt like I was getting annoying last time.
ReplyDeleteAnnes writing a long answer right now, but mostly the answer is: because we did more research.
DeleteYeah, mea culpa, I totally bombed on that one; I was thinking of original Hermes, not our new-n-improved. Hermes turned out to not actually have any reason to have Epic Dexterity associated; he had occasional references to his speed, but in general didn't seem to be all that much more dextrous than anyone else. I suspect the modern association has to do with Golden Age Flash and his Hermes accoutrements - Hermes is awesome at getting places in a hurry, but that's because he's a psychopomp and teleporter, not a marathon runner. Bad example was bad, sorry.
DeleteNo worries, we like talking about why we do things. :)
I wouldn't give Aphrodite Guardian based only on that; Aeneas is her son, so it's not like she has to be some kind of guardian goddess to want to go save him, and as far as I can recall that's the only example of her ever doing anything of the kind in myth. There are no particular places, people or things she's renowned for protecting, nor any stories besides the one intervention on behalf of her son of her leaping to anyones' aid. Which makes sense, really, because she's something of an irresponsible goddess (in her Greek for especially; she calms down a bit as Venus) and protecting things really isn't in her skillset.
We also couldn't come up with any good reason for Aphrodite to have Health. She has nothing to do with healing, curing poisons, creating humanity, none of that stuff; the only boons you could claim she has dominion over are Blessing of Health and Virility/Muliebrity since they have to do with sexual reproduction, but she could have both by Legend 5. There didn't seem to be any reason whatsoever for her to have the Avatar of Health, so we took it away.
Fertility, sadly, is like Ares having Animal (Wolf); we had to give her something, and it was the best choice of a bad lot. She is technically a fertility goddess - she has connections to the flowering of the earth and so on and etc. thanks to being a goddess of sexuality, because ancient cultures usually conflate the two - if you have power over one kind of birth, you have power over both - but frankly I am not at all a fan of using that as a shaky justification, and we wouldn't do so anywhere else. There's also a lot of association with various fruit trees and flowers that represent sexuality, but again it's not as strong as we would normally demand. Since there's currently no Love purview in the game, Aphrodite's unfortunately kind of out on a limb when it comes to associated powers; she's clearly too important not to be Legend 12, but goddamn it's hard to find even three solid associations for her. I've actually lately been tinkering with the idea of maybe making a case for Water to replace Fertility, based on the idea of her born out of the ocean foam plus the idea of the womb and its waters, but I'm not sure if it's enough better to bother with.
We originally gave Zeus Stars because he had made people into constellations a few time... and then we realized that so had pretty much everyone else in the Dodekatheon. Hera, Poseidon, Dionysus, Apollo, Athena, Artemis and Hermes all also put people or monsters into the sky to become constellations. We're not going to give everybody in the freaking pantheon the Avatar of Stars, so we're going to have to not count just the constellation trick as justification, and Zeus doesn't have any other stars connotations to back it up that I'm aware of, so we kicked it back out in favor of giving him Prophecy for his widespread and popular oracular cult. (If we didn't love Arete too much to replace it, we'd probably put constellation-making in the Greek PSP, that's how much these jerks all seem to do it.)
Sigh. Greeks.
The annoying thing is that there are only a few specific Gods that have a big variance between Greek and Roman views. Mars and Ares are pretty dissimilar. They could easily be two different Gods. However, Jupiter and Zeus are virtually the same in terms of what they do, though Jupiter's personality is a bit more controlled.
DeleteCeres and Demeter are another example of a significant cultural divergence, and Venus really DOES deserve to have Fertility, whereas Aphrodite is a much harder sell on that score.
But, mostly, they're the same. For me, it was easier to accept the Roman influence and give the full range of Associations for both cultures. Hera got Justice, Aphrodite got Fertility and Ares got both Fertility and Guardian. I keep going back and forth on him having Chaos as well. I think as a result of this discussion, he'll lose Stamina but get Chaos back.
Where is the Mars guardian thing coming from?
DeleteI recall in our conversation that Demeter almost made it back to the playable roster because of Ceres; if you count her, then Demeter ought to have Justice in addition to Mystery/Fertility, and suddenly she's back in play. I think we need to make a more solid decision on which Roman versions we include and which we don't.
DeleteMmm. The smell of revisionism.
No...the reason we had to stop with that was because of egypt. If we do it in rome, we have to do it in egypt, and they are a fuckstorm of bullshit.
DeleteSuper super most amazing hermes thoth suddenly gets odin level power?
We ONLY attempted it for ares cause he had nothing....and you argued I couldnt kick him out...whichi is what he deserves.
DeleteGoddamn you, HermesThoth.
DeleteI stand by my position; Ares and Aphrodite are too important as gods to kick out for lack of associated powers. They're just... so fucking Greek it hurts.
Taken back, what he deserves is for you to let me just have some important 9-11 gods listed as "playable" and he can be one of those.
DeleteAs I recall, you were the one who said no to that, because my response is always, "Okay, then, STAT ALL THE GODS."
DeleteNo...I want to stat all the gods and you said we cant stat them :P
DeleteIs this the day we decided to stat all the gods ever? Are we playing the most dangerous game?
DeleteI dont think you know what that is
DeleteIf you think the two of us trying to stat all the gods ever isn't going to resemble an epic hunt-and-kill scenario that ends in mortal combat, you haven't been paying attention to the last few times we've worked on it.
DeleteI'm not quite sure what just happened, but the idea of you two stating all the gods (and by association likely letting your players have a wider spectrum of playable god-parents) is absolutely delightful.
ReplyDeleteWell, our players have always had all gods as optional parents...they just choose to never have lower legend ones. Which is very understandable. I think if they made pcs more often they might do that, but they've only made characters a couple times over years.
DeleteMostly it would be a slew of new gods being added to the website. A slew.
DeleteI'm actually pretty excited by the prospect, but, darn it, these Titans are not getting done when we keep wandering off to do other things.
Titans are more important!
ReplyDeletethough having Demeter and Hermod as playable would be super awesome I admit - even if Hermod just has Psychopomp.