Question: Titan question. How do Titan Avatars work? Do they have associated epics and purviews, like gods do? Do they even have stats in the traditional sense at all? Do they just have a bunch of unique custom moves based on who and what they are?
Man, every day our Titans aren't done yet is a day someone reminds me that they'd like to see them. Honest, we're on it!
When we're putting Titan Avatars on paper, we usually choose some associated Epics and purviews, and the Avatar then has All of That Thing that has ever existed. Surtr, for example, has Fire powers that even Fire gods probably don't have; he's one with Fire itself, after all, an expression of its primordial power in Muspelheim. As I mentioned in an earlier post, gods can take on that kind of power temporarily by going to purview Avatar form, but Titan Avatars are closer to just having it all the time. A Titan Avatar might manifest this idea by just using Fire boons that are familiar to players (in a very potent manner, of course), or by using crazy superpowers that even gods can't do. We're still working on details on an Avatar-by-Avatar basis, but we tend to have Titan Avatars have powers that are just always on - just being around them causes reactions in everything nearby, because they are things that are seriously Too Big to hang out with, metaphysically speaking.
Special Titan powers can be anything within the purview of the Titanrealm they're aligned with, and they're an area where things being super overpowered and insane is very much expected. If coming up with unique powers is challenging, often just customizing an existing boon can do the trick. A Titan Avatar of Muspelheim might use Dragon's Breath that is actually relic-destroying lava instead of normal fire; a Titan Avatar of Justice might have a shield that not only prevents you from striking them but reflects all the damage you deal back onto you.
So it's a combination of associated powers and special powers. More to the point, however, is to keep in mind how unbelievably monstrously powerful Titans are compared to everything, even the gods; if your PCs are less than god-level, any Titan Avatar could squash them without breaking a sweat, so what exact powers they have doesn't really matter as much as the flavor of their realm and your description of what's happening. Non-god PCs - or even low-level god PCs - can't win against a Titan on their own (remember, entire pantheons almost can't), so it's more important that you give a badass description of how they either die or barely live than worry about by how much the Avatar is schooling them. Once your PCs are high enough (Legend 10 if they have other divine friends helping, probably higher if they don't) to survive a few rounds with a Titan, then you can worry about having to know the nitty gritty of their stats.
And when it is time for your PCs to decide they want to jump Gaia head-on... heaven help everybody and good luck all around.
So in the interests of opening up the conversation, I thought I should talk about the thought process that led to me asking this question.
ReplyDeleteI was brainstorming ideas for a possible upcoming game, thinking about antagonists I might want to use, and it struck me that everyone interesting is too tough for Hero-level play. For a game with such a long and drawn-out arc of progression, it's especially frustrating to me that a major premise of Scion-- going toe-to-toe with Gods and Titans-- is inaccessible until after you've been playing for a long time. I'm frustrated with exclusively using other Scions, minor-league Titanspawn, and other stand-ins as adversaries during the lengthy early game.
So I got off onto a little bit of a tangent with this question about Titan stats. But what I am trying to wrap my brain around is a way to use them early, or to at least make their presence felt directly (without totally squashing the PCs), so that divine heroes can strive against something more meaningful than whatever dumb kiddie-pool bullshit the stupid ST made up as a way of stalling before bringing out the antagonists we actually care about.
So. Thoughts? Advice? Invective?
A chain of command. Servants of the Titan. Servants of /those/ servants. So on and so forth.
ReplyDeleteCan't fight Surtr? Muspel Giants. Can't fight them? Fire Giants? Can't fight THEM? Thralls to the Fire Giants. Have them sporadically appear while having either an actual Fire Giant or someone related pulling the strings.
I'm taking this from a game my group had just done, actually. There was that, a bunch of mortal Aten cultist being led by what was a Rashep Warrior (they're mooks in the God book, but make excellent bosses for Heroes to fight, though I don't know if it was toned down or not), and the Giant Loa Lobster. A nemean lobster possessed by Mami Wata (or something serving her), also it could talked (though that one was a bitch and a half to fight thanks to ridiculously high soaks, so I'd tread lightly using something like it). That's three titans worth of antagonists right there, and I'm certain our ST had more planned even still.
CAN'T EDIT FOR SPELLING. FUCK. *it could talk
DeleteI think Brent is asking about ways to make Titan Avatars the primary antagonists for a hero level party without using low ranking proxies. He wants to get right to the good stuff without playing for years to get to god.
DeleteJames has cut to the heart of my issue.
DeleteSure, I can always use servants of servants of servants of Titans; that's what I believe most STs default to when their PCs are low-Legend.
I am lamenting that fighting servants of servants of servants of Titans lacks a certain something (informally termed je ne sais quoi, scientifically documented as the "Shit Yeah, Bitches!!" Effect).
You might say that I am trying to arrange parameters so as to isolate the SYBE variable and maximize its value.
Have you considered starting out a game at God or Demigod? I have long entertained the idea of a group of minor Legend 9 Gods, forgotten by all but the most obscure of mythologists, using the Titan War to finally gain the respect of their higher-ups. The only reason I haven't done it yet is because I'd prefer my players eventually reach God the standard way first, so the sudden COMPLETELY EXTREME power-up doesn't blow their minds.
DeleteThought about it all day(and have been thinking on and off since I emailed you), Im just not sure its possible. With that said, I think itd be great if it was possible, but I just cant wrap my head around it.
DeleteAnd I think part of that, is because its unprecedented in literature, movies, everything(please prove me wrong if I am anyone). The heroes always ramp up before dealing with or being able to handle the big bads in some way.
The other problem is world stability. If the titans are something the heros can directly deal with, it would be something the gods could deal with without blinking. So there has to be some reasons the gods arent dealing with it. When its titan spawn and other servants, its because they are infinite and probably arent worth the gods time. When its the actual titans though, thats important. The gods should probably clean that up if they can.
Also there is a bit of power creep problem. If the pcs can deal with titans so early, what do you do to make them grow? How can you challenge them later.
Its very challenging, and while Im not sure Id use it in my games(I enjoy LONG games with enemies far off in the distance), hopefully we can crowdsource some answers or ideas.
And then because I have to say it even though its not helpful.
DeleteThe job of the ST is to make all the antagonists interesting and meaningful. It shouldnt be waiting for much later to have meaningful antagonists. The "kiddie pool bullshit" needs to be just as meaningful and have just as much impact. No, they arent saving the world. They arent saving the 9 realms, but they are saving people, risking their lives, making meaningful connections and relationships.
The idea that the things the pcs are doing is only a matter of perspective when you look at the things happening with the gods and the world. To the PCs that stuff should all be super fucking important. If it isnt, at least most of the time, then something is wrong.
Ok. I understand what the problem is...except I don't understand what the problem is.
ReplyDeleteEven servants of servants, or opposed (or corrupted) scions can have the same effect. It just takes giving them personality, making them memorable. Showing that they are still extremely destructive, despite being but a hint of the Titans themselves (which will be impossible to face without either A: Dying, or B: Fucking over typical player mindset. Show them an antagonist and they'll want to defeat them asap. Even on the off chance they have to push that off it's still normally a priority. Show a bunch of heroes a Titan Avatar face to face often enough, and you'll just be causing frustration as you're giving them something they can't hope to face for a LOOOOOONG time. Though having them pop up once in a blue moon might be a good idea, that has a chance to overshadow more immediate antagonists).
It's like making starting antagonists for any game, though.