Question: Wouldn't Craft make more sense than Command in Know-It-All? Knowing how things were built would definitely help you craft something; there's nothing wrong with having Craft in two knacks since they do not stack; intelligent characters would have more support for certain common archetypes; many types of craft are more about knowledge than talent.
You raise good points, but no, we're pretty solid on Command and Craft where they are, the first in Know-It-All and the second in Jack of All Trades. The important distinction for us is that Know-It-All is only about things you know, while Jack of All Trades is only about things you do. Jack of All Trades involves being so quick on the uptake that you can fake your way through active abilities on the fly without having to know anything about them or have any experience beforehand; in that regard, it's actually the opposite of Know-It-All. Knowing things about what you're doing isn't what Jack of All Trades is for at all - you're doing everything by the seat of your pants, on instinct, rather than having any idea why at the outset. But it is what Know-It-all is for - Know-It-All can't actually do much of anything, but the Scion with it is so intelligent and so well-read that they know a lot of things that they can call up on the spur of the moment. This is why active abilities like Brawl, Craft or Stealth need Jack of All Trades, while passive knowledges like Academics, Occult or Science need Know-It-all.
Craft is almost always a very active ability; it's your skill in actually making or building things, and it's a must for Jack of All Trades (in itself it covers a lot of trades!). Crafting is literally working with your hands to make something.
On the other hand, Craft is not really a knowledge; the knowledge of how to do things with Craft is covered by things like Academics or Science, which Know-It-all excels at. Craft doesn't fit into Know-It-All any more than Brawl does; sure, knowing the principles of motions and human anatomical constraints would help you brawl, but that doesn't mean someone grabbing a dot of Brawl on the fly is learning force physics and anatomy at the same time, because those fall under Academics and Science. It's important to remember that while many crafts in the real world do require knowledge, they are not themselves necessarily knowledges; learning a whole lot about glassblowing technique will certainly help you if you want to be a good glassblower, but it doesn't matter for anything if you don't have a steady enough hand or the artistic talent to do it well. Knowledge is represented in Scion as Academics/Science/Occult and other related fields; it's distinct from the abilities that actually involve doing things.
On the other other hand, Command doesn't really fit into Jack of All Trades because it's not an active ability but more a knowledge of how to get people to respond and obey. Since it's an Attribute (Charisma) that actually puts the punch behind your commands, not an ability like Brawl, it falls more into the knowledge category than the action one.
Those who want to be a brainy crafter archetype are probably better served by picking up actual dots of Craft, and possibly Smith Among Gods, than they would be by fudging Craft into a knack where it doesn't belong. (Or even just getting Jack of All Trades, which only requires a single point of Epic Wits to get access to, after all.)
If we did allow Craft to be on Know-It-All, it would only be to know how to build a table - you still wouldn't actually be able to create the plans for the table or build the table, because Know-It-All is for knowledge, not doing;. You'd still need dots of Craft or Jack of All Trades to actually cause a table to come into being. So it wouldn't be a lot of help for the way you seem to be wanting to use it.
Honestly, I'm surprised that Craft was the focus of this question, considering that the two knacks have other abilities that seem to blur the lines to me more. Craft is definitely not one of the more ambiguous ones.
I have to respectfully disagree with the entire premise of the discussion. All abilities in the game should represent knowledge, while attributes should represent the way that knowledge is utilized. The motive force if you will.
ReplyDeleteGaining a dot of brawl is gaining knowledge of how to brawl. Perhaps a specific martial art, recollections of past fights, or special techniques that enhance your efficiency.
Likewise, a dot of craft can represent past experiences crafting something similar, intense study for blueprints on a subject, or tricks of the trade such as exactly the right grain of sandpaper to use at which stages of creation.
If craft was a part of Know-It-All (and I am not debating if it should be or not, just the core premise of the blog entry), then it would be 2 legend to gain Craft(Table), and 2 legend to gain Craft(Blueprint). You would then roll your craft + dexterity and/or charisma to actually build the table, because attributes are for doing.
We'll have to continue respectfully disagreeing. :) All abilities in the game definitely do not constitute or include knowledge - what's the knowledge quotient of, say, Fortitude? Or Presence? Abilities don't always fit neatly into an overarching box like that, and I'd strongly disagree that all of them incorporate knowledge.
DeleteI do, however, think some of them can incorporate knowledge on a situational basis. For example, if someone were trying to figure out an opponent's martial arts style, I could see allowing a roll of Intelligence + Brawl to figure it out, even though Brawl is not typically a knowledge ability. But then again I might not, depending on how well the player justified the idea - someone who was a career martial artist probably could make that roll, but someone whose points in Brawl came from a youth spent getting into street scuffles probably couldn't. The knowledge wouldn't necessarily accompany the skill. You can easily have Brawl because you're good at it without knowing a goddamn thing about brawling.
Of course, you can solve this issue by specializing all skills - if someone takes Brawl (Kung Fu) or Brawl (Boxing), you'd know exactly what kind of brawling they did and be able to let them roll it for knowledge or action. But that'd be a serious bloat on the system for no good goal, so we definitely don't want to do that - which means we're back to looking at abilities in terms of knowledges and actions, not both.
Look, the real world does this, too. There have been plenty of cases of savantism wherein someone excels masterfully at a field but clearly has no knowledge of it. A carpenter savant may have no earthly idea of any of the knowledge behind carpentry - he may know nothing about planes or angles or measurement or materials, but he can still build incredible things on the strength of instinct alone. Chess savants can play perfect games without being able to do basic math or write in complete sentences - they have an ability but not the knowledge behind it.
I agree that Attributes are certainly the driving force behind things you do, but they're not the only one - and depending on the attributes, some are almost always for knowledge instead of doing, rather than being able to say that all attributes represent utilization (Epic Intelligence, for example, seldom involves doing anything as much as it involves knowledge and understanding). But there's no need to oversimplify down to two things when there are three distinct levels to accomplishing things in most cases: the knowledge of how to do it (knowledge Abilities), the skill to do it (active abilities) and the power to make doing it effective (attributes). You need Intelligence AND Science to make effective formulas, and you need Dexterity AND Craft to use them to create things. Craft alone can't provide the knowledge of Science, just like Science alone can't provide the ability of Craft. Both are necessary.
I am totally happy to agree to disagree. Everything else below this post is going to be purely for the pleasure of discussion and trying to elaborate upon my ideas.
DeleteFortitude could include the knowledge of how to best tense your muscles to resist a blow, how to regulate your breathing to mitigate the spread of poison in your veins, how to slow down your heart rate so you can conserve oxygen in an emergency, or how to focus your attention to avoid nausea.
Presence could include knowing how to stand up straight, knowing to wear certain colors and styles to take advantage of instinctive bias, knowing to act like you are in a position of authority even when you are not, or knowing which angles flatter your personal assets both.
Knowledge is a familiarity gained through all of your senses. You know the texts in your books and the blueprints you see with your eyes. You know the echoing sound of a solid 4x4 stud when you tap the drywall. You know what grain of sandpaper to use on an unfinished piece of wood by the way it feels against your fingers. You know what ingredient is missing to complete the perfect taste on your latest dinner. You know the pizza has finished cooking when you can smell change in the bread.
The example of the streetwise scrapper and the carpentry savant does not sound like a case of someone who does not know a lot about brawling. It sounds like the case of someone who has no idea how to put his knowledge into words that he can articulate to someone else. He may not even be able to understand how he uses his wits to access the knowledge he has.
In my mind, epic intelligence definitely involves doing. It is just doing mental things, such as categorizing the knowledge you possess into meaningful and easily comprehensible structure. You could use Intelligence and Science to explain a formula, but you could also use Intelligence and Craft explain formulas you might know relating specifically to your craft, or if your character is not intelligent then they may not be able to explain any such formulas, or you could just decide to fail that roll regardless of your dice pool because it does not fit your character to be able to explain those formulas.
Fortitude: None of that works without practice. I will give you a book about how to practice your breathing so that you can hold your breath for 2 minutes. You could memorize this book, and you would have NO chance of succeeding unless you practiced.
DeletePresence: If this worked every asshole reading a self help book would become an instant success. It doesnt, those books are bullshit, you need to practice, and have skills.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Ngykt27Wgw
Make a video of you doing that tomorrow and I will eat my words.
But practice imparts knowledge. If you have read several books about something then you probably only have one or two dots of an ability. You require knowledge of real life situations with all stimuli involved in order to gain a more complete understanding of the subject you are learning about.
DeleteOf course, you definitely need to have the physical and/or mental ability necessary to do the things you are practicing in the first place.
That is the opposite of what you've been saying up to this point.
DeleteNot as far as I am aware, and I mean that sincerely.
DeleteYou could practice infinitely, but if you never gained knowledge about what you are practicing (brain damage perhaps?) then you could never get better at the ability you are practicing.
You might get stronger, or faster, or whatever other attribute you are also working in the process of practicing.
Up til this point you've said that knowledge imparts skill(or successful skill rather). But then you said that it was the reverse, that practice imparts knowledge.
DeleteHrrm. I know I said "a dot of craft can represent past experiences crafting something similar", and later said "Knowledge is a familiarity gained through all of your senses".
DeleteLet me see if I can break this down to explain better. For me this is a beautiful concept that makes perfect sense; if only I could just explain it to you the right way then it would all click, and angels would sing from on high.
(You probably feel the same way about your version and hope the same will happen for me)
If you have knowledge about something then you may be able to explain it using your intelligence.
If you have knowledge about something then you may be able to do it instinctively using your wits.
There are many ways to gain knowledge; you can read a book, you can watch someone do it, you can practice doing it, you can think about why it works, you can engage all the other senses I have not already mentioned, and more.
Each way is part of assembling knowledge about a subject. You know how to do something because of the knowledge you have assembled. You can try to do something without knowledge but you are, at best, making an educated guess (not including supernatural stuff in this part of the discussion).
As a separate issue, I have to agree with Anne that craft does not belong in Know-It-All. For me, one of the biggest ways to determine if something belongs in Know-It-All or Jack of all Trades is the importance of muscle memory in the ability.
ReplyDeleteAcademics, Command, Investigation, Medicine, Occult, Politics, Science, and Survival have almost nothing to do with muscle memory except in some very narrow instances (surgery, mudras).
Art, Athletics, Brawl, Craft, Larceny, Marksmanship, Melee, Stealth, and Thrown are rely very heavily upon muscle memory and it makes perfect sense for them to be in Jack of all Trades.
Pssssst... That tom wasn't me....maybe i should set up an account...
ReplyDeleteHa ha, we know, you two have very distinct voices. :)
DeleteSorry for any confusion! I'll call myself Other Tom from now on.
DeleteAlso.... knowing how to do something doesn't mean you can do it. That (like anne said above) is a very important distinction. I'm speaking as a carpenter who has tried to explain projects to people with no skill.... you'd be amazed...
ReplyDeleteI believe that if the person with no skill had all the knowledge you possess about carpentry they would be able to do everything you can do, as long as they were physically capable of doing so.
DeleteWhat you are describing is, to me, the act of trying to share your knowledge with someone and only being able to give them maybe a single temporary dot.
When you tried to explain the project to them, even after you were done they still did not have a fraction of the knowledge about the subject that you do.
Thats just ...not true. Its not even agreeding to disagree at this point. Its just not true. I took several carpentry type classes in college. Some with Real Tom. He has always had more knowledge then me, but I often did have the required knowledge to do the projects. But I could not do them. My hands would not let me succeed.
DeleteI know how physics works. I know where the nails need to go. I know how hammers work. But I would STILL fuck it up. I could draw you a diagram of it, I could explain how my force on the fulcrum of the hammer was going to put the nails in at what angle etc etc etc.
Yet I still cant build a fucking doorframe. Because my muscles are stupid and they refuse to obey.
There are MANY scientists who can explain the physics of doing a back flip. There are VERY few of them who can do backflips.
In my opinion, you are describing a lack of dexterity.
DeleteYou know the angle the nail needs to go into the board. You know generally how to hit the nail with your hammer. You know generally how hard to hit the nail to drive it to the depth you desire.
But you miss. Or you over drive. Or you under drive. Whatever the circumstances may be, your physical attributes have failed you in this circumstance.
Im a gymnast and a wrestler. Im one of the most flexible and dexterous people I know. I have the knowledge, and I have the attribute. The thing I am missing is practice, the skill.
DeleteThis is about to go into a completely different discussion, but I'll risk it!
DeleteI think one of the big problems with the White Wolf system is oversimplification of the attributes and abilities. The academics skill magically includes everything from acarology to zymology. The athletics skill magically includes everything from professional swimming, to weight lifting, to distance running.
Dexterity magically includes everything from fine motor control, to running speed, to long range accuracy, to reaction speed (DV). In real life I do not think any of us have these in identical amounts.
You as a person can be a star gymnast and wrestler, yet be unable to drive a perfectly straight nail or balance upon your toes. A white wolf character does all of these things equally well (until an actual roll is made).
And THAT is exactly why the differentiation in abilities is SO important.
DeleteMaking craft an ability that you do, and athletics an ability that you do lets you represent this gap in logic.
You might have lots of manual dexterity, but if havnt practiced athletics you cant do backflips. You might be a gymnast, but if you dont have actual, practiced dots in craft, you cant build shit.
If you have lots of manual dexterity, you might still be able to do a backflip (or just hurt yourself) but it would be a lot easier if you had the knowledge of how to do a backflip correctly.
DeleteYou can gain that knowledge through practice, so you learn the correct way to position your legs, the correct way to launch yourself, the correct way to curl your body inward, and the correct way to land.
You can study a diagram about how to do a backflip as much as you desire, but this is only a single source of knowledge. Until you gain actual knowledge through your other senses then you are not going to do a backflip as well as you could.
Which brings us back to our original point. Know it all involves things you can do well by just reading about them, not things that require practice.
DeleteWe arent gonna bullshit around with "knowledge" vs "actual knowledge," the game mechanics dont have room for that. An ability gives you all required knowledge of that thing in so far as you can do what you need to do assuming you have the appropriate attribute.
Oh yes. I completely agreed with Anne that Craft does not belong in Know-It-All. I just disagreed with the why.
DeleteWhat I am trying to do (and failing!) is explaining how everything falls neatly beneath the umbrella of knowing (abilities) and doing (attributes).
But in the end you are absolutely right. Whatever method you want to use to conceptualize the mechanics of the game, the important part is that it dramatically helps to have dots of abilities to succeed at your task (or supernatural effects that simulate dots).
Hey other tom,
DeleteJust wanted to let ya know Im moving on from this discussion. Absolutely nothing personal, I would like to continue it, but I dont have the time.
That is perfectly fine! Thank you for letting me know.
Delete