Question: One of the other players gets seriously upset whenever anybody uses supernatural persuasion on any of her characters. When another player does it, she gets grouchy and holds a grudge for weeks. When the storyteller does it, she complains so loudly about losing agency and not being able to play her character that the storyteller has become afraid of doing it to her. What should we do?
This isn't a fun situation. You have my sympathies. Unfortunately, there's no way to fix this one in game; the Storyteller (or the whole group, if you think that might make this player more comfortable) needs to sit down with her and have a serious out-of-game discussion about the issue.
Let this player know - gently, without accusations - that you've noticed her discomfort with this element of the game and want to talk about what to do to make everyone's playing experience better. Make sure she understands that when anyone, Storyteller or fellow PC, uses social or mental powers on her character, it's not an act of out-of-game malice that she should be upset about; after all, she isn't getting upset when the Storyteller sends physical goons after the band, so why suddenly feel attacked personally when the goons have social powers? Make sure you listen to her as well; sure, she may not sound like she's making much sense to you, but her emotions are still valid and she may have some insight or way of looking at it that you hadn't thought of. Get everybody on the same page.
Past that point, deciding what to do will be the real clincher. Your group obviously doesn't seem inclined to throw out the social or mental aspects of the game wholesale just to make her stop complaining, nor do I think you should, since they're easily two-thirds of what's going on in the Scion universe and that's extremely unfair to the other players. Instead, suggest that if being socially assaulted bothers her so much, her character should invest in trying to avoid it; buy up Integrity (and Arete especially, if she's Greek!), grab those knacks or powers your game uses to boost resists, seek out relics or magic items that might add to resist capabilities, and make herself as teflon against that kind of meddling as possible. I'd stress that that still doesn't mean it'll never happen - even Eztli gets successfully whammied in our games once in a while - but it'll happen less often and she can feel like she's taking active steps with her character to get what she wants.
In the end, the most important thing to get across is that Scion is a game that is about more than fighting. You're gods with godly powers, and a large percentage of those are going to have to do with mental or social manipulation of others; it's not fair to the other players to tell them that they can't use their godly powers unless they have nothing to do with her, and it's not fair to expect the game to only throw challenges at her that are easily solved with brawn. That's not how myths and legends go, and trying to force them into that narrow mold removes a huge chunk of the gameworld that nobody in the group gets to enjoy. Try to explain, if you can, that someone using Bacchanalia or Overt Order on her isn't a contravention of her control over the character; it's a reasonable facet of the gameworld. After all, a bruiser beating her into unconsciousness would be at least as much of a removal of her control, but it doesn't seem that she's thinking of them as the same kind of idea. Point out all the awesome opportunities for roleplaying that come from social and mental powers; her character certainly doesn't have to like them, and what she decides to do after or as a result of them can be a fun personality adventure all on its own. If she's only willing to roleplay her character in a vacuum, it doesn't sound like she's willing to accept any challenges in her roleplay, and it may be that she just hasn't thought about how those things enhance the character roleplay experience, not detract from it.
The most important things to do here are to make sure everyone understands everyone else, and to stress that those kinds of powers are not just fun in Scion, but that they are necessary and removing them is unfair to the other players and therefore not an option. It may be that she'll decide she dislikes the idea too much and can't play anymore, but at least this way you're making sure that everyone's on the same page and that the game isn't suffering for the whole group as a result of one player's attitude.
"It may be that she'll decide she dislikes the idea too much and can't play anymore, but at least this way you're making sure that everyone's on the same page and that the game isn't suffering for the whole group as a result of one player's attitude."
ReplyDeleteOh man, is this question memory-inducing. We had a player just like this in Missing Pieces and (un)fortunately, she left. We're still feeling the ripples of her passing though; we're now just tentatively stepping back into the world of semi-PVP and not afraid of when others use powers on us, NPC or PC.
I mean, do you have any idea how frustrating it was/is to be a social character and unable to talk her down when the character does something completely silly via knacks/roll offs because every time you looked at the dice she screamed foul? *shudders*
It's almost too bad, because I'm sure she started out as a great assets to the group and if she had got over that little ... issue, she'd have continued to be part of the team.
Yeah, it's one of the worst player issues to have come up in Scion, and the thought of it makes me cringe. We've been lucky in that most of our players are all about the PVP when it suits the story and don't take it personally, but we did have one player who got rattled because he felt like it was picking on his character too much. He mostly kept it under control and left the game after a good long run with no hard feelings, but it could get tense, and those were the same concerns we always heard from the other players: that it wasn't fair that he could go off the rails and destroy things they'd built in the game with his craziness, but then throw a tantrum if they tried to use their powers in-game to stop him because it was infringing on his personal rights. Sigh.
DeleteI think a lot of that kind of player attitude comes from carryover from games like D&D, where all powers are pretty much directed at the monsters and there's really no element of intra-party argument because most of the time you all have the same goals. Not that there's anything wrong with that style of gaming, but it's not very compatible with Scion. At all.
As a career roleplayer, it makes me very sad to see that be the rallying cry for this sort of thing, because it usually marks a player who has the right idea but hasn't yet realized that being in control of their character doesn't mean they get to control what the world around him or her does, just how they respond to it and try to change it.
I completely sympathize, for the most part it seem all of my players (I'd assume myself included when playing, but it hasn't been yet put to the test) are like that. We've actively avoided doing ANYTHING PvP, combat or otherwise, because it's in the past been a surefire way to make sure the game stops and never continues, and pisses people off.
ReplyDeleteMind you, we're making a change in our newest game, and thanks to inspiration from JSR one we hope to last for a while. In that PvP is there, just extremely subtly, where even the Players aren't quite aware ooc that anything is going on.
It's a totally different matter when it's a whole group - it might be frustrating for the ST, but if everybody's having the same reaction, you're probably right to make that an element of the game that isn't present or is only present in ways that don't trigger your players. You want it to be fun for them, after all, so something no one finds fun (no matter what the reason) is probably best left aside. I still sympathize, though - it's frustrating to have so many doors closed to you in a chronicle. Have you thought about maybe introducing those sorts of things very gradually, to see if they can be eased into it?
DeleteAccidental PVP is sometimes the best PVP. It's Sowiljr's freaking life story.
I'm a member of Glenn's group, and to try and find a PvP where it isn't nearly so triggering I always make it so that you can't say 'I'm a social character - I'm going to Charisma + Command to make him stop!' I feel that if the character's player can't convince the other character's player out of character that what's going on is a bad thing, then I feel like the character's player isn't convinced and they are going to try their damndest to try and get right back to doing what they were just doing, even if 'in character' they should be calmed down. Overt Order or Hard Sell, on the other hand, or Charisma knacks such as Benefit of the Doubt, however, I am completely cool with. If the character's player doesn't feel convinced - the -character- isn't really convinced either. It just happened supernaturally and they have to either accept that or try and roll off against it. It works pretty smoothly, for the most part.
DeleteThat's a good way to approach it, I think - simply rolling stats against each other is pretty lame for forcing other PCs to do things, but powers are powers.
DeleteIt is important, however, to remember that social characters can't be measured by their player's social stats in real life; someone with five Epic Charisma is incredibly charming, and someone with five Epic Manipulation is stunningly, effortlessly persuasive, and these are factors in their characters that are always active, even if the player isn't necessarily able to articulate them fully with their own roleplay. Which is not to say that other PCs never have any chance to say no to them - they do, of course, particularly if it's on a subject that's very important to them - but it never hurts to remind players that those PCs with high social stats are as convincing as it is possible to be, and ignoring that is every bit as unfair as them pretending you couldn't lift anything bigger than a breadbox despite your five Epic Strength would be.
We generally do one friendly reminder per story, or when a PC crosses a threshold of Epics that seems appropriate, just to make sure that social characters don't get left in the dust. "Remember, guys, when Vala suggests wackily insane things, they sound like really good ideas" or "Okay, everyone, Mohini just hit three dots of Epic Appearance, so keep in mind that she is pretty much just a constant distraction and you are all on self-control alert around her". It helps remind players to roleplay the effects of those stats.
Yeah, we've come across this on several occasions. Mostly because I (Terminus) like to be a smart ass to Sowiljur. Then when he tells me something i don't want to do, John ever so kindly reminds me. I don't like it. But then i remember, it's just a game and it shouldn't seem like my personal want should out-weigh his XP expenditure. He's worked hard at it. And it's just a game. Did it mention it's just a game? It's so important to remember that...
DeleteWhat happens when your players get to the point where being on self-control alert no longer cuts it? The point where your players have so many automatic successes that there is no hope that their unmodified resistance roll can stop them from lusting/obeying/agreeing with everything your social characters say?
DeleteIts a tough spot. I think a lot of player trust, especially in the ones with the epic socials...but when it comes down to it. They are who they are. No one talks back to zeus, baldr is loved among all people, Aphrodite is able to wreck social situations in her own pantheon and almost never suffer repercussions. At that point the psychical characters can throw ships and move mountains(eh, almost), battles become insanely epic. The social characters actually have to shine even more.
DeleteBut it definitely is difficult, and you sometimes will have to talk with players and remind them of things. But when sangria really flips out and becomes a problem, she does get engendered love, and all the players are generally thankful for it.
If it seems that she's not responding to helpful nudges, then it's like anne said earlier. You've got to sit down with her (I'd recommend 1on1 personally) and figure out what's going on. Does she feel targeted? Why? How can she bolster her character's resist? Is there an intervention a god in the story can perform? Is she ultimately disruptive to the flow of the group? Worst case scenario, does she need to take a break from the game? If 5 out of 6 players are cool with what's going on, then I'd think you need to cater to the group when one person is being unreasonable. I dunno. It's a sucky situation.
DeleteThis is one of those situations that requires a gentle reminder to the player in question that role-playing is a collaborative effort. Sometimes it is easy to forget that said player isn't the only one whose opinion matters, especially when something affects the character's "free will".
ReplyDeleteSeems like Tom/John/Anne covered the rest so I'll avoid restating it. Trust is a key issue here.