Question: Why is Water a purview? Every other purview is some kind of important universal force. Even Animal, because all manner of worlds and dimensions probably have animals. Water is just one little element. It might make more sense if it controlled most fluid states, but it is pretty specific about applying only to water.
This question caused us no end of bafflement. Seriously, we are very confused right now.
What on earth makes you think water isn't an important universal force? It's one of the most important ones across all mythologies - it's water that we come from, it's water that is the most urgently needed thing to survive, and it's water that generally represents life and creation more than anything else. Water being "one little element" isn't a reason to discount it - the fact that all cultures agree on it as one of the core elements that make up the world makes it very clear that it's a big fucking deal. Why aren't you asking why we have Fire in the game, or Earth? They're just one element, too, but they're extremely important - and so is Water.
The fact that there are large numbers of deities expressly concerned with water ought to also be a clue that it's a really important issue for pretty much every culture. Gods represent the ocean; gods represent streams and rivers and aquifers, are in charge of purifying it so that it can be drunk to support life and of keeping it flowing so that the earth can renew itself. Gods like Enki, Sarasvati, Anahita, Oshun and more represent the need for water as a cosmic source of creation and support; there is no mythology that does not involve water in some form as an important element, nor any culture that doesn't care about it.
If you're just thinking of the fact that the Water purview itself has a lot of levels that just seem to be different forms of "make water do stuff", that's a legitimate concern - we've noticed that, too, and while we're always on the lookout for more varied powers that Water might encompass, it's one of the more difficult purviews to diversify. A lot of things that water does representationally in mythology are covered by Health (fertility and the waters of the womb) or Sky (rain), and while this does not make Water itself any less necessary, it does make it more difficult to come up with unique powers for it to include. We're still working on that one. We've considered the idea of Water affecting other fluids, but doing so doesn't make very much sense - usually those other fluids are controlled by other purviews, and water gods very specifically affect water, not gasoline or wine.
But even so, that doesn't make the purview superfluous or unimportant - it's so important that we are literally boggled by the suggestion that it shouldn't exist. Water is one of the great cosmic principles of mythology, has a whole contingent of gods associated with it and is absolutely necessary as an option for Scions. Removing it from the game would be like amputating a necessary organ.
It wasn't me this time, I promise! I am just as confused by this suggestion...this is like saying "why is Sky a purview? The Sky doesn't even exist, it's just light reflecting off the atmosphere!"
ReplyDeleteI actually think this is a science question, because the OP mentions elements.
ReplyDeleteSure, a bunch of elements can combust. Sure, there are probably strange animals on other planets and other dimensions. But, this is a game about myths which are important to us humans, not the entire universe. Water is life to us, so water is life to a whole bunch of other legendary creatures just because we base them on us.
Oh, I didn't even think of that - that they might mean elements in the scientific sense instead of the classical one. Good point.
DeleteI mean, it's still not a valid reason that the game doesn't need Water at all, but I didn't see that angle.
If you're running low on ideas for water boons, would you be averse to us suggesting some ideas?
ReplyDeleteAs a disclaimer, I have to say that I have a vested interest in this, because a character of mine has Water as one of her main purviews, which isn't surprising as she is a Scion of Sarasvati.
Actually, we'd love to see some suggestions if you've got them. We have a log of possible boons and knacks to add that we just haven't been working on lately because we're pouring all our time into the Titans; I can't promise that we'll get to it soon, or that we'll use your suggestions, but we will definitely put them in our list to look at. You can always post stuff here, or send 'em to ampstorytellers@gmail.com.
Delete... Oddly enough, this question makes me wonder what's in the water where he lives...
ReplyDeleteI mean, water is kind of a big fucking deal for humans, or even life as we know it. Water is utterly unique as far as chemical compounds go, its properties make it essential to the origin and maintenance of living systems. Basically, if Animal, Health, and Fertility are Purviews, then Water is a Purview.
It's only one physical compound and doesn't effect other liquids? Solvency, bitch! Changing States some vapor into liquid, dilute it, and start hurling acid at people. A 97% solution is just as effective at melting faces, I assure you.
(And yes, I know that it's mythic game, I'm trying to highlight that his suggestion doesn't even make sense if you look at it scientifically)
Yeah, it's just odd all around. I kind of see his point in some ways - Water is a little more limited because it's an element that you have to have around for a lot of your boons to be maximally effective, and that can be inconvenient, especially before you have Create Water - but it's seriously one of the building blocks of the universe as far as mythology goes and can't just be ignored.
DeleteWhat other fluids are controlled by other purviews?
ReplyDeleteTo use some easy examples, I'd let you stunt controlling bloodflow or saliva or semen with some Health boons, Fertility can affect things like wine, juices or alcohols with boons like Dormant Memory, Earth controls crude oil and liquid/molten rock, and any animal-created liquid like honey would fall under the purview of that Animal. There definitely are liquids that aren't easy to categorize, like gasoline, but I don't think that's a flaw in the system, especially since most of them are modern man-made compounds.
DeleteWater's very flexible, and depending on how much an ST wants to let you do with Purify Water (i.e., how much of a liquid has to be water to let you use that boon), it ranges from "pretty awesome" to "wow, creative awesomeness everywhere".
Would you allow Water to control liquids with high water content, like say, orange juice? Or, for that matter, milk?
DeleteI wouldn't, no. It's the old question of modern scientific ideas of water versus ancient understanding of water as an idea. Modern science knows that milk is full of water, but to most ancient cultures and in most mythic contexts, water and milk are two very separate things that are not related. They don't represent or do the same things and there's no reason they'd be related, so the Water purview shouldn't have anything to do with milk. Ditto fruit juices, which, while again scientifically certainly full of water, should be covered by the Fertility purview because they're part of the symbolic and representative power of plants.
DeleteAs I mentioned in a comment above, though, I'm wondering if it would be worthwhile to let Water gods use Purify Water to "purify" things like fruit juice so that they became just water again and therefore subject to all Water boons. I'm torn, because on the one hand it's definitely playing more on modern science ideals and we generally try to avoid that, but on the other hand it feels to me like something a Water god maybe should be able to do, and furthermore would help give some extra oomph to one of the least impressive of the level 8 god-boons.
So yeah, I'm not sure on that one yet... another thing to put in the SOMEDAY WE'LL WORK ON BOONS AGAIN pile.
While the juices and milk part make sense, I'd probably allow someone with Water boons to stunt controlling the blood inside of somebody's body. If blood falls more under health than water, there's always the excuse that there's a lot of water, straight water, inside of every cell of a person's body. Not to mention the water that somebody could have just drank. It's the whole point behind the 'Dessicate' Boon. So that would make the Water purview -very useful- for a creative player.
DeleteThe more I think about the "transform other liquids to water, so your other water boons will work on them" idea, the more I like it. It's like a water-purview analogue of property infusion, only a little less flexible, and it lets god-level characters get around the main factor that makes Water as a purview so difficult: the boons just don't do much when you're not in a location with a lot of water around.
DeleteEspecially if you take the hardline stance that Water boons only affect pure water (and not, say, Gatorade), I think it's useful for high-Legend characters to have a way to render more liquids usable, so I don't think I have a problem with Purify being used to pull a reverse-Jesus.
(I still think sea-gods controlling people's blood is a little bit too far, though, personally.)
I agree, I wouldn't let blood fall under Water's sway; it's not something Water gods ever do, and the scientific justification that blood has a lot of water in it falls flat for me for the same reason the milk and juice examples did. Your straight water in the body example is what makes Dessicate work, you're right - but blood isn't straight water, so I'd keep it with health.
DeleteBut I think I'm really liking this idea of broadening Purify Water's scope, too. It's certainly never been a very popular boon for the first god-level one in a purview because it's so limited, and I think this might help it be more competitive with the likes of Insanity or Open Underworld Portal.
Water needs a lot of attention, anyway. I was looking over my Water stuff the other day, and let me tell you, that is some sorry stuff.
ReplyDeleteI felt like Old Mother Hubbard, you have no idea, I opened up that purview cupboard and it was bare as hell.
So true. It has moments of shining greatness - Sverrir never wanted to live in a world without Water Mastery and Renewal - but overall it's in need of more coolness. It's at least some a diversification problem; too much "shape/direct water" spread over too many boons. Sigh.
DeleteHow much should we read into that use of the past tense?
DeleteAs much as you want to. ;)
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