Question: So I understand that if a character buys Protean Understanding, then they can apply their Animal Boons to any and all creatures. But how does this work for associated powers, XP-break/favored-wise? If Tim has Animal (Eagle) as associated and buys Protean Understanding, do all his Scions count Animal (Eagle) as associated, or just Animal?
Nope. Tim may be able to use his Animal boons on all animals, but his Scions cannot; they treat only his totem animal as associated, not all animals by default.
Protean Understanding is there to provide benefits to the person who has purchased it; it makes Animal boons usable on all kinds of creatures, but it's reflecting that you've mastered the animal kingdom to an impressive degree, one which your children have not. Just like Tim had to buy his way up from a single Animal, so his children do as well; they'll get Eagle associated, but if they want to buy, say, Turtle, they'll need to pay the unassociated cost for it since Tim does not actually have any strong link to turtles and is merely so good at animals that he's able to force turtles to behave by using the tricks he learned with eagles.
Otherwise, there'd be no point in gods ever having an animal associated; they'd just all have Animal as a generality, because there are probably few of them that don't have Protean Understanding. While there are some games out there that prefer Animal to be generalized, we're definitely not one of them; if you're the son of Sobek, you've got discounts on crocodiles, not platypi, because Sobek has lots to do with crocodiles and nothing whatsoever to do with platypi.
I personally think this is the wrong approach.
ReplyDeletePart of the reason I think that because very few god-children have the same skills with the same animals as their parentage would suggest. This also applies to gods themselves. There are few instances where more than one god will be associated with the same animal in the same pantheon. The only exception I can think of are Ra and Horus. There could be more that I don't remember, but the point is, it's rather rare.
Solidifying this, in my mind, is The Beast. It doesn't matter if you do not buy Protean Understanding, all Animal Gods have the same pure expression, which lends credit to the idea that all Animal users are channeling the same basic, primal force. It's just that they're doing so through different lenses.
What makes the Animal purview unique (save for Brent's Emotion Purview) is the fact that its wielders are confined to one specific expression of that purview. Even Health users, who can heal and harm, aren't required to buy separate boons to do so. But I think that when a God passes down that Purview, they aren't passing down the affinity for a certain creature, they pass down an affinity for having a totem.
Note that I'm not saying that the Animal Purview should be radically altered. Far from it. All Animal gods, with the exception of Artemis kinda, are gods of one, maybe two animals, three on rare occasions. Even minor "Keeper of Animals" archetypes in folklore tend to have one species they favor or speak through, usually a predator or large herbivore... The point is, Animal isn't a million Purviews with the same basic steps, it's one Purview with a million potential lenses.
And quite frankly, a crocodile fathering a platypus is not even close to the weirdest thing in mythology.
Just throwing in my two bits here. Most of my players oddly enough are not big Animal fans (I have a group of five players, and only our Elohim has it--she's very fond of her cranes), but for the sake of XP I can see wanting a restriction. My own house rule is as follows: if your divine parent has Animal as associated, you get to have as many Animals as they have as associated, but they don't EXACTLY have to match up--for example, Claire, our daughter of Dagon, gets her Animal (Crane) at a break, since her dad has one associated Animal. She doesn't get that break if she decides to buy some Animal (Platypus), because Dagon only has one (Fish). If her dad was Mictlantecuhtli, she could have Crane, Platypus, and one more, since I use John and Anne's stuff for EVERYTHING, and they give the good old lord of Mictlan three associated Animals. This is just me though. I'm probably doing something horribly wrong.
DeleteJeebus knows I don't agree with John and Anne when it comes to Animal, but that approach seems kinda weird. Your totem(s) should be based on your personality. Griff's right, that's not always (if ever) gunna match exactly your parent's choices.
DeleteI don't really get the logic of Micty passing on three free slots, since, again, I think the choice and number of totems should be a really personal thing. Just cause your dad is all about Lynxes doesn't mean you might not be about Tigers *and* Lions.
My solution to Animal is that it's one Purview and for each totem you want, you buy Animal Attunement, a rank 1 boon which is mostly identical to Animal Communication. After you've got Animal Attunement (Jaguar) you can use any of your Animal Boons for Jaguars. If you want to expand out into Crocodiles and Condors, you just buy Animal Attunement (Condor) and Animal Attunement (Crocodile) instead of buying two entirely new Purviews that do the EXACT SAME THING. Which seems really wasteful.
Oh, absolutely your totem should match your personality - but that's true for all purviews. Scions pick up all kinds of stuff that isn't associated because it matches their personality and change those as they grow and change as characters. There's absolutely nothing stopping them from doing that with Animal - as we've said many times before, the associated XP discount is negligible. We've had this conversation many times before, and our stance remains the same: you're not getting an animal unrelated to your parent from your parent's blood. That doesn't and has never made sense to us. Bastet is about cats; she's not about birds, or snakes, or anything else. You can certainly (and should!) get different totems if you want to, because that's easy to do, but Bastet's catlike-ness is not helping out your desire to be a walking stick in the slightest.
DeleteI'm never quite sure where the idea that Scions can only get their parent's Animal totem comes from; they can always branch out, just like they can with all other purviews. Some do, some don't. We've probably had an even number on both sides for those that follow in a parent's footsteps (probably because they chose that god and totem animal for a particular aesthetic or symbolism in the first place) and those who break away to do their own thing. It's a per-player issue, and we don't see anything different between someone deciding to abandon one animal and start another one, and someone deciding they don't want to be an Illusion god anymore and starting to buy up Justice. This is an area where a lot of you have differing opinions, and that's okay, but it's a bit of a dead horse at this point.
You can always, always be about whatever Animal totem you want, just like you can be about whatever purview or style of combat or anything else you want. The only difference when it comes to associateds is a minor amount of XP, and for us that's not only not important, it's pretty much expected. Everybody buys things that are not associated, at least if they want to distinguish themselves from their parents. We have no problem with that in the realm of Animal as well as others.
I had a big long post about why I feel as I do about Animal, but Anne's right: it's been done, been covered. No one is convincing anyone to change their minds, since obviously our ways all work for us and our groups. It IS super fun to debate about, but kinda wasteful of brainpower and wordspace.
DeleteGriff's argument about the Beast Avatar really is pretty compelling for me, and so is the question of how many Hummingbirds one Pantheon really needs. You can have a lot of Sky Gods and Death Gods and Psychopomps, but does any civilization need three types of Hummingbird?
In all the games I have ever played in, I have only ever seen two characters take the animal boons of their parent and never to completion.
DeleteFlipping through the pantheon sections, I cannot seem to find a single child who has the same totem as their parent. (Maybe I am missing a bunch?)
Since almost nobody ever takes the animal boons of their parent, it feels like having Animal Favored does not actually exist except as an academic concept.
Of our main ten, Two had parents that had animal, both of them used the animal of their parent. One of them switched to their own animal at demigod
DeleteVery few have many sky gods or death gods...
DeleteAnd even fewer parents that have sky or death or anything have kids with the same powers. Your arguments explaining how parents and kids don't have the same animals comes up flaccid when compared to other purviews
That brings up a good question. In mythology, how many children of the gods actually demonstrate having similar powers as their parents?
DeleteThat sounds like a giant project that you could have a lot of fun doing.
DeleteIts not really something I have time for, but if you find out, please bring us back your information(im certain its "very few," but actual numbers would be nice.
Also, there is a good chance anne will do this for you when she gets back to the computer.
Similar powers, quite a few - storm gods tend to beget storm gods, at least in cultures that have more than one of those things. The Greeks are particularly notorious about that - Aphrodite's the mother of Eros/Anteros/Harmonia, Hyperion is the father of Helios/Eos, and so on; classical mythology abounds with a ton of little gods that specialize in their parent's broad area. The Hindu do this frequently as well - witness Agni's three sons (three different specialized fire gods), not to mention the same thing happening over among the Pesedjet, where Anubis' children are an embalmer (Kebauet) and a psychopomp (Wepwawet). Plenty of divine children go a totally different direction from their parents, but a lot of them also follow in their footsteps.
DeleteAs far as Animal specifically, however, they usually don't, you're right about that; there's a lot of taking on a similar animal (like Wepwawet's desert wolf vs. his father's jackal), but seldom exactly the same one. This is usually because an animal totem represents something specific and is therefore specific to a god, so they seldom share around, even if they do similar things.
But again, I don't have any problem with them spending a little XP to branch out, just like they would with any other purview.
I was just wondering how much genetics really play a role in mythology, and if the favored system should be tossed out entirely in exchange for something else. I have no idea what else, but it sounds like there is enough gods and demigods running around that do share similarities with their parents that it would make sense to keep the favored system.
DeleteGenetics? None. Lineage? A big one.
DeleteThe similarity of godly purviews tends to be higher in pantheons like the Anunna, Dodekatheon and Pesedjet where the Gods are Gods of Things. It's a lot more confusing in Pantheons like the Aesir and the Tuatha where the Gods are almost as much culture heroes as they are actual divinities.
Take the Sumerians for example: Enki (Water) + Ninhursag (Earth) = Ninsar (Plants). Then, Enki + Ninsar = Ninkurra (Fruitfulness). And after that, Enki + Ninkurra = Uttu (the Spider Who Waves The Web of Life). It's a logical progression of elements combining.
The Greeks have Ares (War) + Eris (Chaos) = Strife (..strife) and similar things. Two elements combine and their kids are the result. Anne already brought up a great Egyptian example with Anubis and his kids.
Passing down an animal totem doesn't really ever happen, at least not that I can recall. Griff pointed out Ra and Horus, but generally, Horus isn't Ra's son, he's the son of Osiris, who has very different animal associations. If a parent passes along Death, that works, but I don't see a lot of situations coming up where anyone is gunna take the exact same Animal Totem as their parent. Meaning that your dad's Animal (Wolf) might as well not be there since it doens't help you with your association with Dogs at all.
There will be similar cases, Jackal and Desert Wolf as Anne pointed out, but the same? It seems like if Animal isn't generalized, then having your parent favor it will never matter, since you'll almost never share their exact totem.
So it doesn't make sense for Animal to apply to all animals because there is no reason why a Falcon god would pass on Trout powers. And, it doesn't make sense for Animal to apply to only the animal of the parent since so few people do it that it might as well not exist.
DeleteThen what is the best solution? Have Animal favored by Order?
I haven't found a solution that works for both views. Pretty much, Anne and John aren't bothered by the second issue and I'm not over-mussed by the first, so we each went the way that solves our particular issue.
DeleteI'd be interested to hear if anyone comes up with a compromise solution, though. Might be cool.
I just noticed that all the inactive characters list who their god parent is both on their character sheets and on the web site. All the active characters do not list who their god parent is on either their character sheet or the web site.
DeleteIf their kids are less then legend twelve they probably do smaller versions of the same things their parents did. If they are legend 12 they probably have mostly different if not all different stuff
DeleteOnly active characters are gods
DeleteThis is a place where I disagree, Source J, because it's a difference between mythology in the ancient world and how Scion dynamics play out in game. Most gods' children don't share their totem, animal, but, just as most players choose a Death god as a parent because they want to play with Death, most choose an Animal because they're interested in that animal. Seldom have I seen a Scion go into the game planning a different totem from their parents; it often happens over the course, but in the beginning, Sangria wanted to roll with eagles and Kebo wanted to roll with crocodiles and Leona wanted to roll with lions. Their parents having those specific associations was a help to them, not a hindrance; the fact that mythologically few children share their parents' totems doesn't mean that Scions can't, shouldn't or won't want to in play. They often do. It doesn't work as a justification for me because it's one of the many places where ancient myth doesn't have a lot of bearing on why players might choose their parents.
DeleteBut you're right, I think we're both solving our preferred problems in our own way. :)
James, characters no longer list their parents when they become gods, instead listing their god-roles; the ten active characters at the moment are all Legend 9 or 10, so they're showing what they're god of now instead of who they came from. In no particular order, their parents are Odin (Vala), Baldur (Sowiljr), Athena (Aiona), Hermes (Terminus), Huitzilopochtli (Eztli), Tlaloc (Yoloxochitl), Vidar (Folkwardr), Njord (Sverrir), Shango (Zwazo Fou Fou) and Baron Samedi (Jioni).
John beat me to it: Legend 12 gods tend to do different things than their parents. Legend 9-11 gods are more likely to be adjuncts to their role, as in the example of Anubis and his children.
Stop crying about xp. This shit isn't supposed to be easy! Work for what you get! It sounds like you guys are trying to weasel in a 2 for 1 deal! You're going from mortal to god! If you want it you have to work on it and not take the easy route!
ReplyDeleteWhen you buy Animal, you should get 1 animal and be specific. If you want multiple, you have to work for it! Please. Your other rules don't make sense! And what the dick is the sound purview about?!
Rant over