Question: What is the general attitude of the pantheons towards Scions who choose to espouse different virtues from their own core four? Also, do you think the reaction would depend heavily on the virtues(s) being swapped in and out? For example, I could imagine Thor letting his child get away with having Valour instead of Courage, but not with exchanging Loyalty with Intellect.
Indeed, I think you've hit the nail on the head - it depends a lot on the god and the Virtues in question. While most gods won't know exactly what Virtues you have (unless they're rocking Brehon's Eye or Psychic Profiler), they will notice how you behave, and those who don't share their pantheons' core values are usually not too difficult to pick out for the more perceptive among the gods. As a generality, pretty much no pantheon is going to be very happy about a Scion swapping out Virtues from their own; deviating from the pantheon's Virtue setup is directly deviating from what they consider the most important and integral values, so it's going to be pretty rare that a god thinks that's a very good idea.
But individual gods might be fine with it. Thor probably can't tell the difference between Valor and Courage anyway, and a calculating figure like Tezcatlipoca might want his Scion to have a different Virtue (say, Endurance instead of Duty) if he were planning to send them to do something that might go against the grain for a normal Aztlanti Scion. The Vanir in our game actually collectively conspired to give Sverrir Duty, hoping that it would help motivate him to restore his people and their kingdom rather than just hanging out with the Aesir all the time (and it worked!).
But most gods would probably see a swapping out of Virtues as a defect at best, making the Scion less effective than he or she should be, or as a betrayal of the pantheon's principles at worst, possibly even up to a point of active treason depending on what Virtues were swapped and how that came to light. Odin didn't really give much of a damn about Vala having Intellect instead of Courage - that was useful for him, since he wasn't planning on using her as a footsoldier anyway - but Manannan mac Lir was so offended by Dierdre not having Intellect that he dropped a permanent Virtue geas on her to make sure she did from now on. It's possible to hide your swapped Virtues at low Legend, when it's usually pretty easy to ignore them when it's not a good idea to get all wigged out over something, but they can't be hidden forever, and Scions with radically different outlooks from their parents' or pantheons' will inevitably end up clashing with them over something or other.
Unless, of course, you're Bogovi, in which case they're probably thinking, "Well, duh."
ReplyDeleteWell, yeah. Unless you happen to some how lose your Piety, then there might be some problems.
DeleteSo my character is a Homicide Detective and a Scion of Zeus (Hero level currently), and I was thinking about swapping intellect for Order. Since you know, Justice gods like them some order.
ReplyDeleteWhat would you think the big man would think about that?
I think the big man would probably not have a huge problem with that - he likes enforcing order! Especially his order. In most cases, I wouldn't think Zeus would have much of a problem with that Virtue swap.
DeleteYour Scion would probably have more trouble with the more Intellect-oriented members of the pantheon - people like Athena or Apollo might find his lack of interest in affairs of the mind disappointing. And god forbid he does something that damages or upsets Intellect when around other gods - Zeus may not care much in general, but if your Scion goes blowing up museums, he's going to start caring really quickly. He still has Intellect himself, after all.
OR DOES HE!......
DeleteNo you're right he probably does.
I think order is indeed an easy one for a homicide detective. However, I think it actually makes a slightly more interesting character(if you're able to play hero through god fully) to not have order. Instead it can be a struggle your character has between his virtues and his morals.
Situation: You are in a Fahrenheit 451 esque political situation. You are charged with burning a bunch of books. You are a man of the law, and you want to follow through with this.
You have order: too easy. Not only do you want to do it, but your virtues urge you to do it. Its book burning time.
You have intellect: Well now you have an interesting and problematic situation. You want to do your job, but your virtues compel you to save that knowledge. Now you have to struggle and make choices.
Really basic example, and I meant to give more, but that other poster wore me out. Im sure you can expound from here.
TLDR I dont think Zeus will care, but you may be making a character decision that robs your character of depth in exchange for ease of play.
And don't forget that switching a virtue adds 1xp to the costs of your psp. In the greek's case, that is an enormous ammount of xp.
DeleteHere's a question:
ReplyDeleteIf two parts of the equation to a character (an NPC in this case) are:
1: A Scion of Huitzilopochtli who toes the pantheon line behaviorally.
and
2: A complete sociopath with no conscience who does not, and cannot, understand or acknowledge that other people (or beings as the case may be) have any worth beyond what they can do for her.
Then, what to do about the Loyalty Virtue?
Her sociopathy is one of the major traits of her character, her complete inability to see other people as worthwhile, which includes an inability to form any truly meaningful connections with any other person, mortal, divine, or Titan.
On the other hand, she's also immensely devoted to Huitzilopochtli, one of the Aztec Gods I think would be least likely to tolerate Virtue switching at all (Second only to Tlazolteotl). So, while replacing Loyalty for this character with, say, Endurance (although truth be told Ambition is more suited for her) makes more sense for the character, it's likely not going to go over well with daddy dearest. And she is not willing to piss off Big H.
(I don't think this personality type is incompatible with Duty. She still has to operate in society, whether mortal or divine, and she serves that society and her divine father in ways that suit her whims. Duty means she's playing a role in society. Loyalty means that she generally cares, or at least respects and values, other people.)
Not only huitz, but the entire pantheon would probably squash losing loyalty. Its just so much a middle finger to all of them. Plus from a usefulness standpoint, losing loyalty is makes her less then useful. We added the magic spell that lets gods change virtues of little heros for this very reason. Sometimes the elders of the pantheon cannot let this shit fly, and changing virtues around is much easier, makes much more sense for them then just outright killing them(and makes better stories for the pcs instead of the ST having to find ways for the gods not to just smite the them).
DeleteThis character sounds a LOT like sangria in basic layout. What kept sangria as a playable character(in part) was her loyalty. Without that raging sociopaths are very difficult for group play. Yes this is a game where you can make any character you want, but you have to give some thought about how a character would work in a group setting, and how a character can balance their value as an asset vs their value as a hindrance. And keeping that little bit of loyalty as a "leash" to the party and the pantheon can be a very important trait towards making that delicate balance work.
Anne can probably shed some more light on the subject as sangrias player. But I probably wouldnt allow it.
This is not the way JSR does it, but personally, this sort of situation is why I like to interpret Virtues as not really being part of a Scion's natural personality, but being a divine force, externally imposed.
DeleteSo I might be, for example, a cowardly backstabber. And if I get Visited by an Aztec god, I'm suddenly a cowardly backstabber with Courage and Loyalty among my Virtues. And that doesn't change my personality-- I'm still a cowardly backstabber-- but now I have a conflict between my natural personality and what is essentially a divine familial compulsion to contradict it. I'm going to still want to act the way I always have, but I might not always be able to do so.
In the short term, this is going to be a great source of fun internal strife. In the long term, maybe it's a catalyst for some kind of change (of Virtues, or of personality), which is after all one of the main ways to grow and stay interesting as a character.
I think the idea of a sociopath with a compulsion toward Loyalty is a potentially fascinating element, really.
I think Brent makes some great points about Virtues versus what would be easiest for the character - sometimes that struggle against what's inborn in you versus what you personally want is an interesting facet of the character. After all, gaining Virtues is something that falls into all Scions' laps, not just those deviating from their parents' setups; they didn't have Virtues as mortals, and even those Virtues that match their personalities are probably going to be surprising and hard to deal with for a while. Virtues that don't necessarily agree with their outlook on life are even spicier.
DeleteI don't think sociopathy is incompatible with Duty, as you note, and it'll probably help at least some with dealing with Huitzilopochtli - not being personally loyal to him doesn't mean much since, as the pantheon's head honcho, your Duty will usually be telling you to do what he says most of the time anyway. But, as John says above, it's a much bigger issue with the dynamics in her band itself; a sociopath with no Loyalty and no strong ties to other people is going to have a hard time finding reasons to stick around and help these other people, particularly if it gets inconvenient. Personal loyalty - even if it isn't a cuddly, loving kind - goes a long way toward explaining why such a cold and unconcerned character would do things like save her bandmates from death, heal them with Health or protect them with Guardian, or ever listen to anything they say.
Of course, you can find ways and reasons she does those things without Loyalty, but it's very, very difficult for a true sociopath. Sangria only manages it (even with Loyalty) because she's married to Geoff, which doubles her Duty up on top of the situation as well; she'd probably have killed off every other member of the band a long time ago if it weren't for that.
No, what Brent mentioned is exactly how we handle virtues
DeleteHe did say that it was an NPC, so the 'not playable as part of a group without Loyalty' is kinda moot. Though the rest of your points do stand.
DeleteOops, good point.
DeleteThis is all excellent. And yes, as said, she's an NPC, specifically a rival/enemy to one of my characters, so Band dynamics ain't too much in the cards. She's in an NPC Band, yes, but that means nothing to her.
DeleteAnd, yes, she does sound a lot like Sangria, although they differ on a number of salient points (namely being a lot more outgoing and intelligent).
I like the concept of Loyalty being supernaturally forced upon her. She only has a dot of it, so it's not going to impact her as severly as some of her other Virtues might. It also explains why she hasn't just killed the PC (a rival biologist and ex-lover) for whom she's designed as a foil.
Hmm... I can even see the concept of loyalty as being frightening and confusing to her. Years of seeing people as tools to get what she wants means she likely sees caring for others as something wrong with her. And this could have something to do with the PC in question. He was the first person she felt Loyalty towards. She thinks he did something to screw her up.
Thanks a whole bunch!
There are rocks more intelligent and outgoing than Sangria.
DeleteAwesome! I particularly like blaming it on the PC - it gives them both some cool interpersonal stuff to work with.
Then again, I usually like blaming stuff on PCs.
Some of my stuff doesnt apply, but this sentence
Delete"She's in an NPC Band, yes, but that means nothing to her."
Really would push me towards her needing loyalty to give her more depth.
I had a sort of similar experience with Vivian and her Piety. Aside from the first seven years of her life, she didn't spend a lot of time believing in or being devoted to any higher powers. But when she recently had a meeting with the other Loa and Shango demanded she make them all chicken steaks for dinner before she gave her boring woman speech...dammit, she had to do it.
DeleteThat's right. Sacrificial chicken steaks for her sexist god king. Piety.
It seems to me like there are some Gods out there who themselves have swapped out virtues. While which one he swapped out is up in the air, I find it hard to believe Thoth, the Master of Knowledge, Creator of Magic, and Father of Scholars does not have Intellect just because it's not in his Pantheon set.
ReplyDeleteWe do run with some gods having deviated in their Virtues, but only when there's a reason in the story for that to have happened (i.e., they got corrupted by a Titan or are trying to move to another pantheon, etc). For the most part, gods of the established pantheons should have their Virtues, because that's one of the major things that pulls them together as a unit; if you're deviating, there should be a reason in the story that you're upsetting that status quo. I'm not saying it's impossible or even bad, but it should be used very sparingly.
DeleteRemember, while your Virtues shape your personality, you are fully capable of having parts of your personality that do not come from them. Sangria doesn't have Vengeance, but she still makes sure to hunt down and murder anyone who has ever threatened or hurt her family members; it's something she considers common sense, not a Virtue compulsion, but it's something she does nevertheless. Folkwardr doesn't have Duty but one of the core facets of his character is his duty to defend and take care of Vala, and so on and so forth.
So just being a very intelligent god doesn't necessarily mean you have to have Intellect. It just means you happen to like the smarts for their own sake, not because your pantheon as a whole considers them the best thing ever. And after all, Thoth is certainly a proponent of the Harmony of the universe as demonstrated by his gambling with the moon to convince it to behave, a fan of Order as evidenced by his role judging the dead, and I doubt, after having served his pantheon faithfully over the millennia and occasionally spent years in the wilderness looking for missing homicidal goddesses, that anyone could really call his Conviction or Piety into question. They're all just as reasonable calls.