Question: You know how there's that prophecy that says Zeus will be killed by a child of his? How many examples of this sort of situation exist in myth? I ask because I'm using Comprenion as a major antagonist in a game, and destined deaths of gods are a big part of the antagonistic Fate Titan's agenda.
Ooh, neat. Enforcing Fate, even when it's horrible and unpleasant (or especially then?), should always be on the Fate Titan's agenda. It doesn't care about your squishy little feelings. It cares about destiny.
There are actually a lot of examples of the foretold downfall or death of a major figure in mythology, but Zeus' case is rare because it hasn't happened yet. Most of the time, the prophecy comes to pass within the same myth that it was delivered, meaning that there are very few open-ended prophecies of death lying around. One example would be Balor, who upon learning that his daughter was destined to bear a child who would kill him locked her up in a tower, only to be thwarted by Cian's wizardly powers and eventually killed as predicated by his grandson Lugh at the second battle of Maige Tuiread. The prophecy is immediately followed up by myths that show it coming to pass. Another would be Ra, who forbade Nut to have any children after foreseeing that one would overthrow him, only to fail when she sought Thoth's help to give birth and thus created Isis, who stripped Ra of his power, and Osiris, who took his place.
There's actually a great reason for this; it's because such myths, which progress from foretold doom to realized fate, reinforce the idea that destiny is inescapable and incontrovertible. By showing the unlucky main character's understanding of his fate and attempts to avoid it, the final moment when he fails reminds the audience of the tale that one's fate can never be avoided. Often, the actions taken by the doomed person are what actually causes his death (such as when King Laius abandoned the infant Oedipus in order to avoid the prophecy of his son killing him, thus making it possible for the child to grow up without knowing him and later kill him by accident), also suggesting to those who hear the tale that trying to avoid your destiny only makes things worse.
Most prophecies are storybound, so it's rare for a prophecy to still be unfulfilled - in essence, that means that your Scions are still in that story, and they've entered it in medias res somewhere in the middle between the speaking of the prophecy and the eventual end which hasn't happened yet. It's easy to do that with new prophecies you make up for your game, but harder to find ones that were part of some other as-yet uncompleted story.
However, your biggest and easiest targets for this are the Aesir, sort of en masse. The prophecies of Ragnarok are very clear that they are going to die, and give very specific details of how; Baldur will be killed by Hod as a result of Loki's interference, Nanna will kill herself out of grief, Hod will be killed by Vali in retaliation, Loki will be exposed and bound underground until he escapes to lead the fire giants into war against the pantheon, Odin will be eaten by Fenrir who will in turn be killed by Vidar, Thor and Jormungandr will kill one another, Tyr and Garm will kill one another, Heimdall and Loki will kill one another, and Freyr will be slain by Surtr because he lacks his famous sword, which he long ago traded away in order to woo his wife Gerd. These prophecies are exactly that kind of "in-progress" story; the foretelling has already happened and the Aesir are aware of their prophesied doom, but it hasn't yet happened (although some of the groundwork, such as Thor's established enmity with Jormungandr and Freyr's loss of his sword, has already been laid).
Keep in mind also that many cultures don't conceive of prophecy and predication the same way - it's mostly Europe that is fond of very definite "This is going to happen" prophecies. Many cultures in Asia prefer an if-then model - if thing A happens, then thing B will happen - meaning that disaster can be staved off as long as thing A is prevented (which can be a long time but is usually not forever - they may have a different concept of Fate, but it's still usually triumphant in the end). Among the Orisha, such strict prophecies are almost unheard-of, and nobody ever has a destiny they can't avoid; their concept of destiny is that it is something that is ever-changing and must be worked at hard to be achieved, so they have their hands full trying to make sure their Fate does come to pass, rather than trying to avoid it (and they believe that failing to realize their destiny means that they've generally failed at their entire life). Comprenion must encompass all of the ideas of Fate expressed in various mythologies, so don't leave these guys out just because they're doing it a little differently.
The Titanrealm of Fate loves enforcing destinies. It's what it does, and if it's mad at a pantheon, heaven help them (see: Aesir, all dying, prophecies of). We love involving PCs, especially ones who dabble in Fate purviews themselves, in those great foretold events so they can see it in action firsthand. Tell us how it goes!
Have i missed something?
ReplyDeleteThere was never a writeup of the fate titanrealm released right?
You didn't miss anything! We use Comprenion as the Titan of Fate, opposed to the Nemetondevos, in our games, but we've never released an official writeup of it. It appears on the Scent the Titanic table and in our games.
DeleteEhh....we dont really use the nemetondevos in our game....not really
DeleteI must admit a lack of knowledge here.
Deletewhen i search the web for the word Comprenion, they want to translate french. If i add ''mythology'' then the top sesults are this blog.
Where would i go to read about this titan? which books should i search? and probably much more important: to which mythology does he belong?
Comprenion is the reconstructed Gaulish word for "destiny"; it comes up as French because the French language borrows a great deal from that older one, and currently uses the word comprendre, meaning understanding. Comprenion's not a person, just the name of one of the Titanrealms we use, so you won't find any myths about a person by that name.
DeleteLike most Titanrealms in Scion, Comprenion's a game convention, not a mythological one, so you won't find it any more than you would find anything searching for Keku or Ehekatoyaatl. Because the Gaulish pantheon, as written by Biblioteque Interdite, did not have an opposed Titanrealm and was instead fought back against by agents of fate, the Titan of Fate became their major enemy in some of our early chronicles. We have slowly stopped using the Nems for much, but Comprenion itself is still there, and still spends its time Fate-antagonizing all those people out there who think they can get away from or change their fates.
The ambiguity of the word "Titan" strikes again!
DeleteWould Fate be one of the titan-realms that we will see on the page when you finish the ''new titanrealms'' project?
DeleteNeg, itll be "beast" and "illusion/trickery"
DeleteGotcha
DeleteAbout the Orisha- is there a fate titan that enjoys how they are constantly seeking to improve/fulfill their destiny instead of avoid or delay it?
ReplyDeleteTheir strongest Fate-aligned people are members of the pantheon proper - Orunmila, Oshun and Eshu - and I don't know of any other Fate-aligned figures I would call Titans for them. But the Titanrealm of Fate as a whole probably both loves them, because they're always trying to fulfill their fates, and hates them, because they think their own actions have an impact on that instead of being based on teh whims of Fate itself.
Deletesince there isn't an Orisha writeup on the download page, do the Aiser and Orisha but heads over one group seeking to escape fate and the other seeking to fulfill it? In other words, what is their relationship as if it was in a pantheon writeup?
ReplyDeleteI think it's likely they just don't understand one another very well. The Aesir think of fate as this incontrovertible, awesome proclamation of what will happen in the future, so they wouldn't understand the Orisha idea that you can fail to achieve your fate at all; they think fate happens to you, not that you have to achieve it. They might think they're kind of stupid for reaching for a destiny that's inescapable anyway, or just not understand what they think they're doing.
DeleteThe Orisha probably think the Aesir, who are all about avoiding their Fates, are pretty irresponsible - after all, if you fail to fulfill your destiny, you've lived a wasted life in their opinion. They would probably think that the Aesir need to get more divinations, find out more about their destinies and take a more proactive role in what they're supposed to do, instead of moaning and groaning all the time.
Other than that, they've got similarly warlike tendencies and both love a good tall tale, but the Orisha are a little more vicious than the Aesir, which might lead to some conflict if members of one pantheon cross someone from the other.
Dear John and Anne,
ReplyDeleteIt was a noble idea giving us a poll to vote upon, but I would like to ask you to consider taking it down. Or at least the major project one. While I personally hope Enech will win, it makes me sick to think it got there because of blatant cheating. I have no doubt that the recent surge in lower legend gods is similar cheating.
More than being idealistic about cheating, watching the progress of the polls plays havoc with my feelings. When the things I like are winning my hopes soar, and when its competition gets a giant bucket of votes my hopes crash. I miss the old days when every finished project was just a pleasant surprise.
Who knows. It might even cut down the number of inbox questions you get every week.
Awww, it's saddening that some of us users of the page feel that way.
DeletePersonally i like the option to vote on whatever i think should be ''the one'' thing to be chosen, and feel like i made a difference.
But even if some cheaters, which i want to believe is not the case, are controlling which subjects are winning, i still am allowed a glimpse at all the different goodies that might happen in the future!
as right now, i have voted for Enech, but i can see that John and Anne have thought about doing lower legend gods and avatars too! and that excites me!
and even if something i am not so exited about -like asha- would win, i could be like ''cool! i wonder what they put on the list next time to replace that, and mabye asha becomes something i would look at with more favour in the future, thanks to the update, than i do right now.
Hey, anon, thanks for letting us know. Feedback's always helpful from all of you guys.
DeleteThe basic bones of it is that there are a lot of things we want to do, so sometimes we look to you guys to help us decide which to do first. (Other times, we do stuff you didn't vote for because we need it for our games or wanted to do it more, too.) It's helpful to us to have a general barometer of what people are interested in, because otherwise sometimes we get paralyzed by all the things we need to do, or end up working on something that turned out not to be very useful for very many people.
But, we do get your frustration. Online polls are always cheatable, and despite these ones being better than the old ones, they can still be gamed. We ask people not to cheat, but we also know they still do and there's nothing we can really do about it. It is frustrating to see that your favorite project isn't coming out next, and double frustrating when you suspect it might be because of cheatery. (Although, since we can't tell when cheating happens, it could also be legit. It's invisible either way.)
We like involving you guys in the community, because it feels good to do things that are useful to others as well as ourselves, and it's fun to get to have a dialogue about what people want and how they use it. But we also recognize that we can't make everyone happy all at once, and that there will be disappointments. And that sucks, and we're sorry for it.
We have been talking lately about whether our polling systems and voting systems need to change, and whether or not our current way of deciding on projects is working.
If nobody was cheating, then I think I would feel better about it. If there was only a little bit of cheating, then I think I would feel better about it.
DeleteBut Lower Legend Gods jumped up thirty points in about two days, and Enech jumped up twenty points in the same amount of time. Nothing about that seems honest.
While there might be cheating from time to time, it honestly seems like the favorite wins most of the time regardless. And honestly, not to be rude, but you need a better backbone if that depresses you. Or just don't pay attention to the polls and see what happens if watching it upsets you. If everyone wants something then let the majority win, be happy for the people who want it. Its silly to ask someone to talk down a poll because one person doesn't like it, its selfish to ask that in my opinion.
ReplyDeleteHey, let's not be rude to anon. S/he's giving honest feedback. We appreciate it from them and from you both.
DeleteThe majority doesn't win, the side with the most cheaters wins.
DeleteShould I gather that the anonymous poster has seen their choice lose out in the polls, and is somewhat upset by this? Look at it this way - if Pantheon A [e.g. Inuit, Hittite, K'uh, etc] is voted for by a majority [honestly or not], and wins, then they are off the poll, and another pantheon [or project, or fiction] has a chance to win, It may simply be that some pantheons/projects/fiction subjects aren't popular enough with the majority of readers to ever win. It's tough, but that's the way it is, honest voting or not. Are you suggesting there is a core group of "cheaters" who select a particular topic and conspire together to vote it to the top each time? That seems a wee bit unlikely to me. But at any rate, please; let's not let the matter of the polls ruin the enjoyment of what should be a fun topic and a great website. John, Anne, please keep up the great work, and don't get discouraged by this matter.
DeleteI think this is a situation where everyone is right. Anne and I have had the same discussions listed here on both sides. We probably wont get completely rid of polling cause anne finds it useful and people find it fun. But will will strive to find ways to cut down or eliminate cheating whenever possible.
DeleteThe main problem with cheating is not so much one person cheating so much as the ESCALATING WAR OF CHEATERS.
ReplyDeleteAnd related to the actual post, if you want an Aztec-centric Comprenion problem, then the sun is totally falling out of the sky and destroying the world (possibly localized to Central Mexico) in a massive earthquake
I appreciate the polls, because at least it gives us a measure of choice over which items we want to see appear next on This Fine Site. It may be that there is some multiple voting going on, but I figure it evens out over time, and if one group can do it, so can another. I doubt it really matters that much overall. Consider this a vote to keep the voting. :-)
ReplyDeleteYeah, it's always helpful to have input from you guys, and polls are an easy (and quick, and fun for voters) way of getting it. It's definitely something we wouldn't want to totally get rid of.
DeleteI wasn't trying to be rude, its just tough love lol. I'm bad about putting my foot in my mouth, so I apologize if it came across mean. But something related to the actual post, another prophecy that comes to mind is the one where Astraea is supposed to return to earth to usher in a new Golden Age in Greece, not a dark apocalyptic prophecy but a prophecy nonetheless. Of course, I've seen that story on multiple websites, but I'm not sure if its a real myth, or just a modern legend that's popped up.
ReplyDeleteI'm sure you weren't. :)
DeleteI don't think that's a prophecy that appears in any Greek myth i know of (although as usual, if someone's got sourcing, jump in here!). Astraea left at the end of the Golden Age, or somewhere in the Silver/Bronze ages depending on the version, because as a representative of purity and the rightness of law, she could no longer handle the depths of depravity people sank into after the end of Cronus' rule. It'd be nice to think that she might come back at some point because we're getting better, but I don't know of such being predicted anywhere.
There are nice prophecies out there, though - the return of Arthur when Britain needs him most, for example.
It's one thing if, say, an option goes up 60 points over a week or a few days. That's cool, that's neat.
ReplyDeleteIt's another when it goes up 60 points in less than two hours which is not as legit; and yeah; if it wins through simple rigging the systems then that's just blah.
(especially because lesser gods are like super easy to do people.... *whispers*)
Okay, that's just screwy. Who has the time/inclination to IP-hop enough to add that many fake votes? Is someone getting all their Facebook "friends" to cheat for them? This happened with the Inuit/Australian pantheons in the last poll there, and it's more than a bit weird. I just don't see the logic in it - why wait until it gets this far, then suddenly dump a bunch of votes into one topic, when the poll isn't even close to being closed? A suggestion; maybe we should vote by emailing John and Anne, and anonymous votes don't count? That way, there would be a vote, but less likelihood of cheating and vote-bumping? You guys could list the topics, and we could vote, but we wouldn't know what's winning until you published the results. Because now I agree - this is getting silly.
DeleteI actually wonder if someone right now is doing it just to try to highlight the flaw in the system - clearly nobody's winning tonight, but someone might be dumping giant numbers of votes into it just to point out that it's broken. Which, of course, we already know.
DeleteWe have talked about doing votes by email or commenting before; we've always balked because we hate to exclude all the anons out there, because we know there are people who just don't feel like making an account or who don't want their info in the Google system and so on.
We've been talking about what to do with it in the future a lot this week.
Yeah, it's odd that it happens right after the whole "I hate the system, I like the system" debate took off. I think you may be right about it being deliberate. But all it does, Anonymous Phantom Voter, is bugger it up for the rest of us! Is there any way to reset the polls to pre-today levels?
DeleteHumm, unfortunately not. I'm poking around in its innards, but it looks like I can reset it to zero, but not to a certain point in time. We'll have to make some decisions about what to do with it.
DeleteI see several scenarios as being possible:
Delete1) They sincerely think those votes will count.
2) They are testing you to see if those votes will count.
3) They want to highlight the flaw to stop all voting.
4) They want to discredit lower legend gods.
A combination is also possible. Someone might want lower legend gods to win and dumped a bunch of votes into it. If you allow the votes to stay, then lower legend gods wins. If you removing voting, then there is a decent chance you would choose to work on lower legend gods anyway. Win-Win for the cheater.
5) They could be trolling for the giggles.
DeleteIt's also happened in the Pantheon poll - the Australians shot up today by quite a bit. I want them to win, but not by blatant vote-mongering.
Delete