Question: From what I understand, sacrifice to the Aztecs is an important part of maintaining and powering the universe. How do they react to pantheons like the Celtic ones, for whom sacrifice is a matter of simple veneration? Do they see it as needless luxury, or out-and-out blasphemy (since the other pantheons aren't actually being powered up by sacrifice)? A betrayal of their people? Or would they be fine with it?
A lot of this will probably depend on the specific Aztec god in question, so we're going to give you a few different approaches and let individual Storytellers figure out which one would make the most sense to any given god of the Teotl.
If you're talking about a Teotl god who isn't particularly bright, who hasn't had much interaction with other pantheons before, or who just has a poor grasp of the occult or a healthy opinion of how important and universal his own pantheon's practices are, there may be no conflict at all. Gods are, at their hearts, pretty much all egomaniacs, and those who are community-focused like the Teotl tend to extend that to their entire culture - i.e., Mexicans are best, everyone else probably does exactly what we do, because why would they ever do anything else? Under such an interpretatio mexicana, some Teotl may simply assume that other pantheons are getting power from their peoples' sacrifices. That would look normal to them, and if they're not particularly good at understanding how magic works, it may not occur to them that those other pantheons have different powers instead or that the entire universe doesn't run the same way that it does for them at home. Those gods probably totally approve of bog-body sacrifices or mummified mountain sacrifices; to them, those are the only other pantheons who are being even vaguely responsible. In fact, they probably severely dislike, or at least look down upon, pantheons who don't practice human sacrifice, because to them it looks like those jokers are just a bunch of gods being assholes and refusing to help prevent the entire universe from falling apart. What dicks.
On the other hand, those who have interacted with other pantheons a decent amount and understand that they don't get any power from their worshipers' sacrifices may have mixed feelings. Mortals giving up their very lives in sacrifice to their gods seems like it's right and familiar - after all, to the Aztecs, that's what they're supposed to be doing and it's hard to not automatically accept that. But at the same time, the Teotl are deeply invested in and loyal to their people, divine and mortal alike, and wouldn't dream of hurting them if they could help it (certain shining malcontents like Tezcatlipoca aside). It's the fact that the community of the Aztec world is so loyal to one another and the greater good of all that makes the deaths of its members a sacrifice at all. So from that perspective, some gods might see it as a rather unforgivable abuse of worshipers. Killing off some of one's worshipers to make sure everyone in the universe doesn't die is a noble sacrifice, putting the needs of the many before the needs of the few, but killing them off for no reason at all is being straight-up disloyal to the very people you're supposed to be taking care of. Gods coming from this point of view might be shocked, appalled or even furious with deities of other sacrificing pantheons, who they might see as being massively irresponsible or oppressive to their own people.
Of course, it's also a pretty entrenched idea among the Teotl (or at least the mortals that worshiped them) that the Aztecs are in fact the best humans in existence and every other people is lesser and therefore existing only to be conquered and/or sacrificed for the good of the world, so they may not be that upset about it. I mean, it's unfortunate that those other pantheons are jerks to their constituents, but their constituents are clearly not as important as the Teotl's constituents, so it can only be so much of a tragedy.
And finally, there may be some Aztec gods who simply don't care at all what other pantheons are doing. Especially if they realize that other pantheons can't get power out of sacrifices, they may just shrug and go on their way, probably with a side order of shaking their heads and talking among themselves about how only they are really doing anything to help the world not slide into destruction and it would be nice if those other, obviously lesser gods someday learned to do the same. They might see mortals practicing sacrifice anyway as being well-meaning but ultimately pointless and not really care about it much; it might also be a popular opinion that those other pantheons are obviously crippled or sub-powerful in some way, because their worshipers are doing it right but for some reason their gods just can't seem to benefit from it the way they're supposed to, which probably means something is wrong with them. Or, perhaps some might hold the theory that other races of mortals lack sufficient amounts of chalchiuatl, the precious water and source of energy carried in blood, and so killing them just isn't as helpful as killing an obviously much more important Aztec person would be (although this theory is probably held more by homebody gods, as any Teotl who go jaunting abroad will find it just as easy to murder and Australian or Tibetan person for Legend as they would performing a sacrifice at home; and ancient Aztecs definitely did sacrifice members of other ethnic groups they encountered, so maybe this is more of a people-who-aren't-Mesoamerican-are-inferior kind of thing instead of specifically Mexica-only). I mean, if you kill someone who isn't Aztec and therefore doesn't matter to your Loyalty- and Duty-bound view of the world at all, was it really a sacrifice?
The one thing in your question I would say probably nobody thinks is that those other pantheons are indulging in a "luxury". If the sacrifice literally doesn't do anything, it's not really a luxury at all - that would be like buying a box of literally nothing, and then claiming that this was a "luxury" that you kept in your house. One possible approach might be that other pantheons are just so powerful that they don't need sacrifice to keep the universe going and therefore sacrifice could be considered an unnecessary luxury... but I doubt very much you're going to find many Teotl who are all about deciding that everyone in the world is more powerful than they are. No pantheon is in ever in favor of that kind of interpretation.
So really, it depends on a particular god, how much your story has them gallivanting around the world and what sort of personality and idea of the powers of various pantheons they already have. Someone like Quetzalcoatl, who probably understands other pantheons' practices pretty well and doesn't like killing people to begin with, might be horrified by such blatant destruction of people for no reason at all; someone like Tezcatlipoca, who is completely happy with murdering people if he thinks it's funny, probably has no problem with it at all or is amused by how stupid those other pantheons and their inability to get power out of such actions are; and someone like Huitzilopochtli, who is likely none too bright and fully invested in how important and powerful he and his people are, probably assumes that everyone else also does it his way and would have no concept of gods who were receiving sacrifice without also receiving power. Mix and match as necessary.
What I know of bog bodies and the other evidence of Celtic sacrifice doesn't suggest to me that the sacrifices were made lightly or for no reason. They just weren't intended to fuel the universe with the vital power of living blood. They had other purposes. Y'all know that I've taken a stab (heh) at a Gaulish PSP based on their forms of sacrifice, but even if you don't agree with that idea, the sacrifices were seen as pretty important things. The Inca mummies, too, from what little I know of those.
ReplyDeleteThey were more important to the *mortals* than the gods, but it's not entirely crazy to suggest that they could be seen as a responsible action, though still very alien (and thus badwrong) to the Aztec mindset. Hurray, xenophobia!
Yeah, it's all about the xenophobia. :) I didn't mean to suggest at all above that those sacrifices aren't extremely important, meaningful and sacred to their cultures, just that the Aztec mindset would find them useless and therefore confusing. Tons of cultures sacrificed for very important reasons; they're just mostly different ones from the Mesoamerican the-blood-is-the-life idea.
DeleteWhere can we find your Gaulish PSP, Source J?
DeleteRight hurr: http://tinyurl.com/gaulishpsp
DeleteIt used to be on the White Wolf Forums, but did not survive the transition, and it was posted months and months ago.
Thank you. I don't know enough about balance to rate it on that scale, but it has a much Celtic feel than the original Deuogdonio. Have you considered having it added to "Fan-Written Scion Material" thread on the new forum?
Delete(Previous reply deleted due to a small typing error.)
I could add it there (that's my thread), but I just never got around to it. I generally preferred adding polished, sexy things to that thread, and a bunch of GoogleDocs aren't polished and sexy. I suppose there's no harm in putting it up, though.
DeleteQuestioner here. Thanks for this one! Been looking forward to it. And I'm sorry if I gave off the impression that I thought the sacrificial practices of non-Aztec cultures were frivolous. That wasn't the intention. I wanted to know if the Aztecs would think they were frivolous.
ReplyDeleteThe Aztecs probably think everyone who isn't Aztec is frivolous.
DeleteGoing through the Teotl tag it is hard to see where the Aztec gods stand when it comes to this whole sacrificing business.
ReplyDeleteI'm not going to deny that they did it, but it's hard getting the scope of it. Like in the Scion books it's implied that gallons of blood must be sacrificed daily or the gods get upset and the universe stops working. Other times it seems like only a couple sacrifices here and there during the year is fine.
There are levels of different need and practice involved in traditional Aztec sacrifice. Frequent sacrifices were offered, but they didn't all need to be massive kill-twenty-people events; autosacrifice (giving themselves a small bloodletting cut or piercing, usually in the mouth or genitals and done with a thorn or small knife) was a common way for mortals to frequently provide some energy and respect to the gods but not actually do crippling damage to themselves or anyone else. The Aztec religion was founded on everyone sacrificing and doing their part to help keep the universe running, but often that just mean that every little bit helped, and the average guy on the street could give a little and know that because everyone else was, too, things would be all right.
DeleteLarge show-stopping sacrifices were more infrequent, for obvious reasons - it was harder to get a lot of people to kill, and the Aztecs didn't want to kill off their own community all the time since that would be counterproductive. Disasters were a common time for this kind of thing - for example, if there was a drought, a large number of children might be sacrificed to Tlaloc since it was understood that he must be having trouble keeping the rain going, or if there was a solar eclipse, several people might be sacrificed to Huitzilopochtli to ensure that he fought off whatever disaster was trying to destroy the sun. Most of the gods also have specific ritual times that they receive more sacrifices - for example, Tezcatlipoca's ixiptla sacrifice, Huitzilipochtli's offerings at Panquetzaliztli and so on - which were more concerted efforts to make sure those most important gods had everything they needed to run the cosmos. Wars were especially bloody times, since captives were usually sacrificed (always better to sacrifice someone other than your own people, right?), and the war deities needed more juice to continue carrying them to victory anyway.
So there are times when it's rivers of blood and everyone is panicking that the universe might end tomorrow without sufficient sacrifice, and times when everyone's just giving a drop or two here or there and things are working as intended. They might need gallons of blood, but when your whole civilization has a lot of people in it who regularly give just a little, they add up to enough when there's nothing particularly out of the ordinary going on. (Which, incidentally, is what the Reception of Sacrifice boon is modeling!)