Question: What qualifies a human for Legendary Mortal status?
This is a question that the original books never really clarify fully, so we all have to muddle through on our own. Actually, we don't have a lot of Legendary Mortals running around in our games, but they are theoretically possible, so we have a few general suggestions for them.
There are only two times the books directly give us a way for a mortal to become a Legendary Mortal. The first is in Scion: Ragnarok on page 43, where it notes that a mortal who escapes death by willing his own survival after someone uses The Best Trick on him becomes permanently Legendary, and the second is in the Scion Storyteller Screen on page 8, where it says that any mortal who sleeps with the legendarily virgin goddess Epona becomes Legendary in his own right. Beyond that, mechanics for Legendary Mortals are never addressed; Scion: Demigod mentions that they exist, but never says anything about how they get to be what they are.
So it's sink or swim, Storytellers! We have actually never officially codified what creates a Legendary Mortal in our games (other than obvious things like the Bestow the Mantle of Fate boon). Mostly, we haven't worried about it because it's more of a setting issue than a game one; Legendary Mortals are out there in Scion's universe and useful for explaining the actions of a few rare legendary figures who don't make sense as either Scions or normal humans, but they don't make appearances in games much. Of course, some of you guys may have Legendary Mortals running in and out on the daily, but for us it's seldom a front-and-center issue.
However, while we don't have directly outlined rules for this, we do have general guidelines. The idea of Legendary Mortals is that, once in a great while, there may be a human who does something so incredible and myth-worthy that Fate itself notices her, and as a result she is woven into the story and remembered in a way that most mortals could never aspire to. She still can't ever rival the powers of the gods or their children, who are divine in their own right, but she has become a legend among humans and so impressive that even the gods might remember her name. Legendary Mortals must also be legendary in their own right - that is, they must be legendary because of their own actions or abilities, not simply because they're in close proximity to someone else who is already legendary (like a Scion). Average humans, or even extraordinary humans, are not made Legendary simply by doing things within the normal human scope, nor do they become Legendary themselves when their only claim to fame is the actions of a Scion or Titanspawn near them or involving them. However, in most cases a Legendary Mortal must also be in some way involved with or be able to affect the supernatural or divine. They must touch something that is already Legendary, but also be worthy of that Legend themselves.
This is all super subjective, of course, so different Storytellers will probably have different standards of what kinds of acts warrant a mortal being elevated to Legendary status. Normal feats, even though they are awesome for humans, don't cut it; lifting a car off a trapped friend, cracking an ancient language's code in spite of decades of failure from others before him, or managing to orchestrate a government's downfall with flawless manipulation and leak tactics are all impressive, but they are things that humans at the top of their game can do. A simple brush with the supernatural won't do it, either, or else every human who barely manages to survive a vampire attack or creates a work of art after being inspired by a Muse would be Legendary, too. But a mortal who defeats a Scion in single combat in front of his divine parent, and is rewarded by becoming his bosom companion is a Legendary Mortal; a mortal who catches the undying love of a god and marries him in spite of her human fragility is a Legendary Mortal; a mortal who destroys a divine treasure that had been hidden for thousands of years and is cursed with immortality as a result is a Legendary Mortal. Stuff like that.
It sometimes helps to look for figures in ancient myth that appear to be Legendary Mortals, and base your assumptions on them, as well. One of our favorites is Odysseus, who despite having some divine blood way back in his family tree is too far removed from it to be anything but human and has no special powers, but who still manages to turn the tides of a war fought by the gods themselves with his cleverness and escape many supernatural trials to find his way home. Another example might be Beowulf, who manages to fight and overcome supernatural creatures despite not being supernatural himself, and becomes a hero remembered in legend forever in spite of eventually dying at the hands of a monster he could not hope to defeat. Lugalbanda, the mortal father of Gilgamesh who married the goddess Ninsun and was posthumously said to live among the gods as a king forever because of the renown of his son, might be a Legendary Mortal, or Kunti, the mortal woman who through ritual managed to summon down the god Surya and then bear his child in spite of being a virgin.
Finally, the most important thing for deciding that someone is a Legendary Mortal: just like a Scion, his or her deeds must live on as myth. What they do must matter enough to be remembered - not just front-page news this week, not just remembered as a landmark case in education for a few years, but enduring, retold stories. That's how Scion measures Fate paying attention to and caring about someone, and a Legendary Mortal must do something that matters enough to become a legend. That's why they're so special, after all; even though they aren't themselves magical, they still did something that made them remembered along with the creatures and divine beings who are.
Don't one of the Norse PSP boons turn the subject legendary?
ReplyDeleteGift of Battle Eternal does, but it turns humans into giants with Legend rating equal to half the Scion's, not Legendary Mortals. There are various ways in the game for powers to turn humans into legendary not-humans (Titan corruption also happens pretty frequently), but they just make new legendary creatures, not Legendary Mortals.
DeleteSimon Telamon, a sample Guide on pg. 64 of the Scion Companion, is also a Legendary Mortal.
ReplyDeleteIf Epona is a legendarily virgin goddess, then how do mortals get to sleep with her?
The Nemetondevos supplement suggests that she has to break her vow of chastity once in a very great while to have Scions to help fight the Titans. We aren't fans of that approach - the fact that Scion adoption is possible means that no god or goddess who prefers chastity or monogamy should ever need to go mess around with humans in order to be useful - but it's what's in the book.
DeleteI can't say I'm a fan of that approach, either, but don't the Nemetondevos have a unique problem among the pantheons where they can't adopt Scions due to Fate disliking their PSP or something like that?
DeleteOh, man, it's been so long since I read it I'd completely forgotten! You're right, it says on page 4 that they can't adopt Scions, because they piss Fate off way too much with Deuogdonio for it to allow them to transfer their children over.
DeleteExplains why they do it that way, at least. Although, since they're also supposed to be all about reincarnating their Scions instead of having new ones all the time, Epona would probably only need to have one biological child ever, even if an ST rules that she has to reproduce the old-fashioned way. (Unless that kid's genealogical line manages to all die off, but I'd assume she'd probably take especial care with that if she's invested in avoiding dudes.)
What does it take to be a Scion descent-wise? Ajax the Greater is the great-grandson and great-great grandson of Poseidon, the great-grandson of Zeus and the great-grandson of Chiron (?!?) Is that enough ichor to make him a potential Scion? The same thorny descent path is true of Diomedes, who, although the second greatest Achaean warrior in the Trojan War (Ajax was the third) beats out Achilles (the first and more normal Scion material since his mother is a third-rate goddess) as far as being a bad-ass goes. He wounded Aphrodite and Ares. Which is pretty impressive considering, ya know, the Epics they have, the Boons, the Ultimates and the Avatars. And Diomedes, by the lights of Scion being just a Legendary mortal...
DeleteI guess my point is that the first game is Scion:Hero and these guys definitely are Heroes. Defined as such in the mythology from which that distinction is made. Maybe not as directly related to the gods as Theseus, Jason, Heracles (or Orpheus or Achilles by gods of Legend less than 12) but still quintessential Heroes.
Same applies to Odysseus. He has the divine connections 3+ generations back, but he is doing the kinds of things Scion-type Heroes do. Up to and including going past mortality and becoming immortal (then he retires to hang out with Calypso for eternity... sucks for Penelope after all her loyalty). (From myth cycles we don't know directly since they have been lost in the interim but we know about them from other writings).
Are Legendary Mortals sometimes Scions pre-Visitation (at least sometimes)? Are the (sometimes) mortals of divine descent for whom the ichor just isn't thick enough for a Visitation?
Along with the other geneses that Anne describes. Which, BTW, argues that Hitler was a Legendary Mortal....
Scion's rules there are pretty easy: grandparent or parent must be a god, full stop. Great-grandfather or farther away doesn't cut it, so despite the genealogy that says Odysseus was at one point descended from Sisyphus, he can't be a Scion. (We've talked about how we like Odysseus better as a non-Scion before - despite his adventures, he's a symbolic representative of humanity in its struggles against the divine.)
DeleteThis is for a few reasons, but the most important are that otherwise in some cultures everyone's a potential Scion - for some mythologies, all mortals are descended from the gods - and because we want Scions themselves to be special, rare and closely associated with the divine.
Scions and Legendary Mortals are never the same - LMs can never gain Legend and are not the children of gods. Theoretically, Scions could be Legend 1 before Visitation, though - they are usually more awesome as mortals than the average bear, even if they never get a Visitation. The game doesn't start actual Scion play until Legend 2 because having only one point of Legend to spend isn't much to work with, but I could see an ST ruling that pre-Visitation Scions are Legend 1. They get to go up in Legend if they get a Visitation, though; LMs never do.
Hitler (who in the original books is set up as a Scion, but ugh, no thanks on that take) lacks the connection to the divine that LMs need, so we wouldn't consider him one. He did things that are remembered by history, but not in a legendary sense. His fame is strictly mortal, where a LM needs to be touched by the divine.
Mortal historical figures that aren't Legendary are important, too - it's always good to remember that humanity may not be magical, but they do have the ability to make lasting change and drive their own destinies when the divine is not directly interfering with them.
funny how you concede the point for Epona, but there have been legendary fights in the comments over Hera and Athena.
ReplyDeletewe didnt concede anything, we just said "that is whats written" cause it is. We dont use it. We're just highlighting how few times its brought up in the books.
DeleteNot to mention the fact that while Epona is called a virgin goddess in the Nemetondevos supplement, there's no evidence in Gaulish mythology that they thought of her as a permanent virgin. Considering that we know of some hieros gamos rituals involving a horse goddess that is probably her, she was probably understood to not be one.
DeleteI assume that the Nem supplement made her a virgin partly because she doesn't have a divine consort, and partly because they were trying really hard to have the Nems mirror the Greek gods, who do have famous virgin goddesses (especially Artemis and Athena, both of whom may have influenced Epona's Roman cult) among them.
But if we did consider her a virgin goddess, we would also consider her to only adopt Scions like all the other ladies (and a few dudes) who can't or won't reproduce the normal way.
Is there any evidence at all that supports the idea of the Gauls considering Epona a virgin? I was under the impression that the Romans invented the idea for her because they used her for their cavalry and wanted to invoke the old virginity = invincibility thing.
DeleteNot that we know of. It's possible, but most of the books we have that discuss her tend to refer to her as a mother goddess, in fact (often symbolized by a mare with foals).
DeleteOf course, one could be both. Both Sarasvati and Anahita are virgin mother Goddesses, aren't they?
DeleteI think there's a whole dissertation on the difference between different cultures' perceptions of what a "virgin goddess" really is, too, because it's not the same across the board. For some, it means never having sex ever; for others, it means never having sex with men; for others, it means not being married; for others, it means being symolically maidens or young girls forever; for others, it means that their sexuality is their province alone, and cannot be understood or controlled by men. Different cultures have very different ideas of what "virgin" means in a religious and symbolic context.
DeleteSo in some cultures, a virgin goddess could also be a mother goddess, and in others, she couldn't. But that's like this massively crazy topic that involves worldwide sociology... and it's only noon for me right now, I'm not ready to take that on. :)
Do you think Scion: Origins will deal better with legendary mortals?
ReplyDeleteI think that depends a lot on each persons version of "deal better." I think it will definitely address them more often.
DeleteI would assume that since Origins is dealing mostly with things at the mortal level, it will probably do a lot with the idea of what powers and/or capabilities various kinds of mortals might have in the gameworld.
Delete