Question: Do you guys have any special rules for vehicles, or do you basically go by the RAW?
We do have special rules. Like you guys wouldn't have suspected that.
To begin with, where the original books always use a Dexterity + Control roll for driving a vehicle, we always use a Wits + Control roll instead. There are a lot of reasons for this; one is the ever-looming fact that Dexterity, which gives you both attack capability and DV, is already doing plenty in the system and doesn't need to be even more a stat that nobody can live without, but the other is that we think Wits just plan makes more sense. Driving is not usually a very athletic or motion-filled event. You move, of course, but it's all very small repetitive movements, confined to a small space (at least when talking about the majority of vehicles a Scion will be driving). Even little old ladies can physically move fast enough to drive reasonably, so we don't see any reason more Dexterity will make you better at this. However, what really does matter in driving is reaction time - being able to see obstacles or signals in time, being able to avoid dangers or decide in a split second whether or not you can jump something, and so on and so forth. Driving - at least, driving where your stats matter - always happens at high speed, which means that if you don't have the Wits to make decisions in the blink of an eye, you may crash and kill everyone. It's also nice to have two different stats covering different ways of moving quickly; Dexterity is for those who want to move quickly on their own (via speed knacks or things like Marathon Sprinter), while Wits is for those who want to move quickly by using a vehicle instead.
So we never roll Dexterity + Control for anything anymore, really. Maybe in an occasional situational way, like if a giant was trying to delicately drive a tiny car using only his thumbs or something, but not for normal driving situations. This goes for planes, trains, automobiles, boats, chariots, tanks or anything else that normally falls under the umbrella of Control. Incidentally, we also have players use Wits for Control rolls involving live mounts (horses, donkeys, cavalry bears), but usually also pair it with a Charisma + Animal Ken roll to see whether the animal will put up with any of their shit.
As for the stats on vehicles in the books, we ignore them and you should, too. Like the stats for everything in the original books, they're arbitrary, don't always balance well against the capabilities of Scions or antagonists' stats that are provided with them, often contradict comparable stats given in different books because they were written by different authors, and are a big old ugly mess. Instead, we recommend statting a vehicle based on what you believe it should be able to do and survive, with perhaps a tiny touch of cheatery toward the durable to make it more possible for Scions to use it in epic chase scenes or whatever else they have in mind. A normal automobile should require mortals an extended period of time with weapons to demolish, but should be easier to break for a Scion and still easier for a rampaging monster, so give it soak that can withstand mortal averages but not necessarily divine ones. Average speeds for various kinds of vehicles can be easily found with a quick internet search, and if your vehicle is magical in some way - it's a chariot drawn by magic horses, let's say - you can adjust up from there, again taking into account what you think Scions should be able to do with and to it. Feel free to be creative, and don't think you can only use the stats the book normally does. Is it old and out of power steering fluid? Slap a -2 penalty on that thing! Is it a state-of-the-art prototype that's very fast but still untested? Up its speed but give it a 1 in 10 chance of exploding if the Scions go above a certain RPM! Do whatever makes sense and is neat for the vehicle's scene and purpose in the story.
If trying to do that on the fly makes you uncomfortable - and it would for me, so I'm with you - do up some basic vehicle stats ahead of time, whether based on those in the book or tweaked to what you think is more reasonable. Have basic capabilities written down for a normal car, sailboat and helicopter, so you can reference those quickly if your Scions go bananas and start commiting grand theft auto in the middle of their mission. You can also use them as quick bases for other kinds of vehicles - for example, if they're making their getaway in a school bus, use your car stats but give them a maneuverability penalty to their Wits + Control roll and a soak bonus from all the extra steel and seats.
Other than that, I don't think we do anything particularly special. Vehicles straight up trying to outrun each other is still an opposed Wits + Control roll from each driver, although some vehicles may be different enough in base speed that even a Scion's madcap driving skills can't win the day (for example, a moped is not going to outrun a jet, even if the moped's drive is way better at the roll). And, of course, we have a tree of custom driving-based knacks in Wits, which can help a Scion push his ride to the limits of its mortal maker's dreams and beyond.
What about health levels? You've mentioned before that they're pretty absurd in the books, so how would you recommend balancing them?
ReplyDeletePretty much the same way - figure out how much punishment you want a given vehicle to be able to take, and maybe run a few test rolls outside of game to get an idea of how many shotgun blasts/axe strikes/whatever it takes to break it. Rickshaws should have fewer health levels than car, cars should have fewer than tanks, and so on.
DeleteIf these are mortal objects, they should be pretty reasonably breakable - a mortal steel ship should not be harder to destroy than a god, so remember to compare to the health levels of living things. If it's a relic or supernatural vehicle, start with what its mortal stats should be and adjust up for its level of legendariness/importance to the story or band.
While we're on the topic about vehicles - how does it work when an enemy is trying to attack a vehicle you're driving? Or attack you inside of it? Are they targeting the vehicle or you? Does the vehicle have a DV or is it considered a DV0 inanimate object. Logic dictates a car moving at 100mph is going to be difficult for an average human to hit with some gunfire, a rocket, etc, but I'm not sure how to decide an appropriate DV...plus that gets messy when Scions can run that fast; they don't get DV bonuses for doing so, so why would a vehicle?
ReplyDeleteAssuming the vehicle is hit, how does damage work for the passengers? Does the vehicle work as armor? So if it has a soak of 5, and gets hit for 13, would the passengers take 8 damage - further soakable by their own soak?
All the questions!
ARggg.....was bitching about how it took forever to answer this....cause its a hard question to answer....then got almost done with a giant answer.....and misclicked a link and it all deleted....raggeeeeee
DeleteThat's the worst. I can resubmit it as a proper blog question if it helps, to give you some time to get back to it.
DeleteCavalry Bears?
ReplyDeletehttp://static2.fjcdn.com/comments/and+once+you+ve+proved+your+dominance+you+get+the+saddle+_5e1984a735eef01e5a01a6c1b050aea0.jpg
DeleteAlso...just google image search "bear cavalry." You are welcome.
Gotta love those Russians...
DeleteI definitely agree with you that the primary roll should be Wits + Control. But I've been thinking about Dexterity + Control a bit more and wonder why you guys do not use that as a secondary roll the way attacks require dexterity to hit and a secondary roll of strength to damage?
ReplyDeleteWits definitely represents how fast you can think and mentally react to external dangers. But no amount of mental speed will make your physical body react fast enough to the commands your mind is telling you to make. You need to turn that wheel at exactly the right moment, and exactly to the right degree.
And that's just for a mundane car. That doesn't even include supernatural vehicles that would be designed for people capable of making faster movements.
My guess is because it 1) adds superfluous rolls, and 2) Dexterity, as they mentioned, is already a super stat.
DeleteItzhak's pretty much correct. Dexterity is already crazy powerful in that it's used for a whole lot of stuff, and doesn't need to be inserted into the game in more places unless there are rolls for it that we genuinely think are needed. And we really don't see the need for a second roll here for vehicle driving; no other general action requires double rolls except for combat (which is handled differently for a lot of reasons including potential for fatality), and we're not excited about bogging the game down with a bunch of extra rolling. Doing that would open the door to all kinds of extra, pain in the butt rolls - sure, it would make sense when someone is doing research to make them roll Perception + Investigation and then Intelligence + Academics to represent them both seeking the information and comprehending it, but in practice it would be a lot of extra boring rolling that didn't add anything to the game.
DeleteWe do sometimes have people do extra rolls for extraordinary circumstances, such as when a vehicle is set up in such a way as to make driving more difficult or specialized than usual or a team effort is required (sailing a large ship, for example). But we wouldn't want to make that something that's basic to all driving rolls - it's a pain that doesn't add anything and slows the game down in general.
Don't you have two rolls for every social attack as well? One for the attacker and one for the defender?
DeleteBut either way, based on what you said I think the easiest way to handle this kind of issue is just establishing a baseline. "You must have this much dexterity to do this stunt. Anything less, and you get a penalty on your Wits roll / the difficulty of your Wits roll is higher".
Yes, but that's not the same system? One person rolling two rolls for the same action isn't the same as one person rolling once and their target rolling once. Time-wise, the second is faster because both rolls occur simultaneously, and mechanics-wise, the second isn't comparable to the combat-based mechanic you're proposing. In combat, the attacker rolls twice (once to hit and once to damage), where the defender's "resist roll" is just replaced by DV. For almost all non-combat actions in the game, the person taking the action rolls just once, not twice.
DeleteYour suggestion sounds fine here, though I wouldn't put a specific number on it. I'd play it by ear as the ST - if you know a character is pretty low on Dex or is trying something normally outside their physical capabilities, you might want to make them roll to prove they can physically handle the stunt, but otherwise I'd ignore it in favor of cool stunts and not spending any extra time on math or extra rolls.
Sounds like an ST crunch style preference, though!