Hmm. Well, we first got this question and we were like, "Duh, question-asker, it is obvious, they are the opposites, this person was probably drunk when they sent it in," and then we went to go congratulate each other and eat doughnuts and generally be assholes. But then we thought about it a little more and we were like, "Oh, wait, this is actually pretty complicated," so here we are to apologize for our earlier behavior.
The problem with Heart of Darkness is that it seems totally straightforward and easy in its assertion that a Virtue is reversed to its opposite number, but in reality that is actually a totally subjective call, so it's understandable that there's some confusion. While what something's "opposite" is usually looks pretty obvious, it's got room for interpretation, so one man's obvious may be another man's second-best, I-guess-that-makes-sense version of what they think should actually be the Virtue's opposition. One person might say that the opposite of Order is obviously Chaos, moving that person to support entropy, breakdown and madness at every turn; but another might say that the opposite of Order is obviously Injustice, moving that person to intentionally commit crimes, subvert the law and otherwise be a massive pain in everyone's ass.
So here's what we're going to do. We're going to give you a quick table of about what we would consider the opposite Virtues for Heart of Darkness (some of which have been used in our games before), so you can refer to it as a handy reference if you want to. But it's pretty off-the-cuff, so if you happen to be a Storyteller who firmly believes in a different interpretation of a given Virtue's opposite, feel free to go wild with it instead.
| Virtue | Opposite |
| Ambition | Complacency: This person wants to keep the status quo. |
| Conviction | Apathy: This person doesn't believe in or care about anything. |
| Courage | Cowardice: This person is terrified of and actively avoids danger. |
| Duty | Irresponsibility: This person refuses to accept accountability. |
| Endurance | Sloth: This person avoids difficulty and revels in laziness. |
| Expression | Censorship: This person shuts down all forms of expression. |
| Harmony | Excess: This person destroys balance wherever she sees it. |
| Intellect | Ignorance: This person hates knowledge and learning. |
| Loyalty | Treachery: This person looks for every chance to betray others. |
| Malice | Compassion: This person wants to help and take care of others. |
| Order | Anarchy: This person hates rules of all kinds. |
| Piety | Hubris: This person accords respect to no one but herself. |
| Rapacity | Asceticism: This person avoids all sustenance and pleasure. |
| Valor | Sadism: This person revels in the suffering of others. |
| Vengeance | Victimhood: This person refuses to stand up for herself. |
| Zealotry | Divinity: This person opposes the Titans and supports the gods. |
The idea here is not just to have a Virtue with a word that is opposed to the word that represented the original Virtue, but also to encourage those afflicted to behave in ways directly counter to how they would normally act.
I feel like, in that faraway future when we rework Darkness, we will probably end up making a similar table. But in the meantime, this should give you a basic jumping-off point.
Question asker. Thanks for not being dismissive!
ReplyDeleteThe second half is admittedly a little unclear. I'd intended to say, would you replace that Virtue with a pre-existing Virtue that was somehow seen as an opposite. I didn't think so, because when trying to come up with an example, I couldn't think of one (I guess maybe Malice and Valor? Or conviction and Zealotry?).
But yeah, helpful chart is helpful.
I remember, ages ago, I had tried to link up each Dark Virtue with three Divine Virtues to act as it's opposites. In my headcanon, I always just had Heart of Darkness switch the Divine Virtue with the Dark one (I don't let allow Heart of Darkness to switch out Dark Virtues since it never felt right to me). I think the correspondences were:
DeleteAmbition: Duty, Loyalty, Courage
Malice: Valor, Vengeance, Order
Rapacity: Harmony, Intellect, Expression
Zealotry: Piety, Conviction, Endurance
They're nowhere near perfect, but I really liked the idea of Dark and Divine Virtues being more directly opposed to each other. :)
Does someone affected by Heart of Darkness have to roll for standard Virtue Extremities for what he did when he was under its influence of the Boon, once the Boon's effects have ended?
ReplyDeleteDepends on whether or not it's still affecting him or was a major issue for him at the time, but yes, often he probably does. If he has valor and killed a bunch of children, he'll still remember that and ferak out over it as soon as his Valor reasserts himself, and if he has Loyalty and realizes he sold his buddy out while he had Treachery, he'll be in mental agonies. If it's something that he doesn't remember or that probably doesn't come back up again later, he might skip it, or if it's covered by a larger roll - for example, we would make a guy who got his Order back roll for major crimes committed, but probably not for every time he parked in a loading zone during his crime wave.
DeleteOne easy way to solve this, at least on a house rule-basis, is to use TerriblyUncreative's Virtue rules. They are essentially the same as yours, but with an expanded set of 12 Dark Virtues, to complement the normal Virtues.
ReplyDeleteCan be found here: http://www.terriblyuncreative.com/scion/virtues.htm
It's not specifically stated, but I group them according to the handy semi-table below:
Conviction - Apathy
Courage - Cowardice
Duty - Treachery
Endurance - Rapacity
Expression - Destruction
Harmony - Discord
Intellect - Ignorance
Loyalty - Ambition
Order - Anarchy
Piety - Heresy
Valor - Tyranny
Vengeance - Malice
That makes this whole setup more interesting (and a lot less forced than some of my choices above). I have to ask though: shouldn't it be Loyalty-Treachery, Duty-Ambition?
DeleteI like the adjectives, but 12 seems like a lot for dark virtues. Does a titanspawn randomly get 4 of them?
DeleteIIRC, in his setup each Titanrealm has a set of Dark Virtues, similar to pantheons, so where a titanspawn comes from determines its Virtues.
DeleteWould it depend upon which Titan they serve or pantheon they generally oppose? Such as titanspawn traditionally opposed to the Theoi would have Ignorance, Destruction(or Censorship), Tyranny(or Sadism), and Malice(or Victimhood)?
DeleteI see Anne had already covered that so to speak... :-)
DeleteIn response to Samudra's question: Given what the writeups say about each, I have placed Ambition as opposed by Loyalty, as you litterally walk over the bodies of your friends and family to advance yourself; and Treachery as opposed to Duty, as you use and abuse the chain of command to stab your superiors in the back, while generally being derelict in your duties.
DeleteI play it as the opposite of whatever pantheon is most closely linked to the titanspawn in question. That the different Titans had their own Virtue spread was news to me. I shall have to investigate! :)
BTW, from what I've seen so far in his game (this is Terriblyuncreative's brother), Terriblyuncreative also essentially uses dark virtues for non-titanspawn villains who are nonetheless legendary beings, and also to mechanically represent effects that would otherwise effect roleplaying (say, a character becoming a werewolf, and so having Malice as an extra virtue to resist/channel during the full moon). I don't know about titans having dark virtues (since they are so elemental and removed from human motivations), but villains and particular titanspawn, certainly.
DeleteSo, there are 12 because evil motivations are just as diverse as heroic ones.
When I first wrote this stuff down, I didn't have a hard and fast set of rules for how they opposed one another, just a general guideline in mind.
DeleteJohannes, you were pretty much right on the money with how most of those paired up!
John/Anne/Shawn, I originally did set up a specific set of four Virtues (not all of which were necessarily Dark) for each Titanrealm as the default Virtue set. As I've played around with this further, I think that individual Titans (being, you know, individuals) will likely have four Virtues that may or may not align somewhere in between their Pantheon's default set and their Titanrealm's default set. (So, Surtr might have Courage, Destruction, Rapacity, and Tyranny, while Prometheus might have Destruction, Intellect, Rapacity, and Vengeance - not trying to start a debate over specifics, just throwing out an example).
Samudra, I think that I'd stick with Loyalty/Ambition (advancing others before yourself vs advancing yourself before others). I originally had Duty opposed to Tyranny (you are in service to a higher ideal vs enforcing your ideals on everyone else), rather than Treachery. Valor was opposed to Treachery (fight fair vs cheat to win).
Vengeance (which is plenty Dark on its own merits, if you ask me) and Malice aren't really good opposites, but they were the only two left so they ended up just sitting in the corner perpetuating a horrible cycle of endless violence against one another.
(Whoa, Tim's here! Hi, Tim!)
I like to think of it as Vengeance doing horrible things to people because you feel they deserve it, whereas Malice is doing horrible things to people because you can. It's a subtle distinction, yes, but given that both are kind of horrible Virtues, I think that's kind of a good fit. It's the subtle differences that make it that much more horrible for the Scion who gets them. They might not even realize it.
DeleteI just might go with your original plan regarding the placement of Treachery and Tyranny. It kind of makes sense.
(Also, thank you for making these. Makes having demi-titan player characters (just the one, mind you) that much more fun. Yes. I am indeed mad.)
I decided to check. So, since the activation roll is Manipulation + Empathy, the only gods who have Darkness, Manipulation, and Empathy canonically maxed, at least until more pantheons get included on your site, are Tezcatlipoca and Eshu. And both are also Magic, so they have Shape the Soul. Could that make Heart of Darkness effects permanent?
ReplyDeleteI cannot think of two figures who would use this power more responsibly.
(sidenote, I got this idea from thinking "Hmm, Tezcatlipoca has Malice in your games, and probably should in canon depending on how they work Virtues in 2e. I wonder if he got hit with this and became Compassionate?" So I decided to see who might be candidates for doing this and making it work. The only decent one was Eshu, so the answer is no one)