Thursday, August 15, 2013

The Golden Age

Question: Wait, Cronus ruled over a golden age of humanity with no want, hunger, crime or sadness? Wut? Does that mean that if Cronus DID reclaim his rule, he would be nice(ish) to humanity? Assuming other factors (i.e., other Titans) permitted it?

Oh, definitely. Check out Hesiod's description of the golden age:

First of all the deathless gods who dwell on Olympus made a Golden Race of mortal men who lived in the time of Kronos when he was reigning in heaven. And they lived like gods without sorrow of heart, remote and free from toil and grief: miserable age rested not on them; but with legs and arms never failing they made merry with feasting beyond the reach of all evils. When they died, it was as though they were overcome with sleep, and they had all good things; for the fruitful earth unforced bare them fruit abundantly and without stint. They dwelt in ease and peace upon their lands with many good things, rich in flocks and loved by the blessed gods.

Or, here's Plato's follow-up on the subject:

Long ages before even cities existed... there existed in the time of Kronos, it is said, a most prosperous government and settlement... Well, then, tradition tells us how blissful was the life of men in that age, furnished with everything in abundance, and of spontaneous growth. And the cause thereof is said to have been this: Kronos was aware of the fact that no human being is capable of having irresponsible control of all human affairs without becoming filled with pride and injustice; so, pondering this fact, he then appointed as kings and rulers for our cities, not men, but beings of a race that was nobler and more divine, namely, Daimones. He acted just as we now do in the case of sheep and herds of tame animals: we do not set oxen as rulers over oxen, or goats over goats, but we, who are of a nobler race, ourselves rule over them. In like manner the god, in his love for humanity, set over us at that time the nobler race of Daimones who, with much comfort to themselves and much to us, took charge of us and furnished peace and modesty and orderliness and justice without stint, and thus made the tribes of men free from feud and happy. And even today this tale has a truth to tell, namely, that wherever a State has a mortal, and no god, for ruler, there the people have no rest from ills and toils; and it deems that we ought by every means to imitate the life of the age of Kronos, as tradition paints it.

Callimachus also points out that Cronus' rule was also an awesome time for animals, and even castigates Zeus for being a jerk by ending the awesomeness:

It was the time when birds and creatures of the sea and four-footed animals could talk in the same way as the Promethean clay... in the time of Kronos, and even before. Just is Zeus, yet unjust was his ruling when he deprived the animals of their speech, and - as though we were in a position to give part of our voice to others - diverted it to the race of men.

Ovid's even more excited about it, and more detailed:

The Golden Age was that first age which unconstrained, with heart and soul, obedient to no law, gave honour to good faith and righteousness. No punishment they knew, no fear; they read no penalties engraved on plates of bronze; no suppliant throng with dread beheld their judge; no judges had they then, but lived secure. No pine had yet, on its high mountain felled, descended to the sea to find strange lands afar; men knew no shores except their own. No battlements their cities yet embraced, no trumpets straight, no horns of sinuous brass, no sword, no helmet then - no need of arms; the world untroubled lived in leisured ease. Tellus willingly, untouched, not wounded yet by hoe or plough, gave all her bounteous store; men were content with nature’s food unforced, and gathered strawberries on the mountainside and cherries and the clutching bramble’s fruit, and acorns fallen from Jove’s spreading tree. Springtime it was, always, for ever spring; the gentle zephyrs with their breathing balm caressed the flowers that sprang without a seed; anon the earth untilled brought forth her fruits, the unhallowed fields lay gold with heavy grain, and streams of milk and springs of nectar flowed and yellow honey dripped from boughs of green.

So here we've got a whole bunch of accounts of Cronus' rule as a time that was totally awesome - no war, no lawbreaking, no pain, no fear, no damage to the environment, no hunger, no thirst, no sorrow, no poverty, no responsibility, and all the animals could hang out and talk to whomever they pleased. It was basically total partytime 24/7, in a world with no crime or unhappiness ruled over by a king - Cronus himself - who loved his people to death. Not generally what people think of when they think of a world owned by a Titan, eh?

Depending on how you want to play it, however, it's possible that it wasn't really all roses and awesomeness. Cronus didn't allow much in the way of responsibility for his people, which was both liberating and allowed them to live happily, but also didn't give them much in the way of self-determination or free choice - both Hesiod and Plato specifically note that the Daimones ruled over mankind rather than letting them make their own rules. Callimachus' assertion that Zeus took speech from the animals to give it to mankind also implies that humanity might have been basically animals themselves, without the power of speech or communication and therefore no true ability to form civilized culture. Cronus' rule might have been totally trouble-free and joyful for everyone, but it could also be seen as a kind of tyranny, with the Titan preventing humanity from ever reaching their true potential due to a misguided desire to protect them from themselves.

Or it was great, and Zeus is a giant bag of cheese-flavored dicks. It's really your call.

In either case, it's unlikely that Cronus would return to a new Golden Age if he were to triumph over the gods. The race of humanity that exists now are not Cronus' people; the people of the golden age were destroyed by the evils from Pandora's box when Zeus took power, replaced by the inferior people of the Silver Age, then the even more inferior people of the Bronze Age, and finally the most inferior people of the Iron Age - in other words, us. It's because the current race of humanity is so far removed from the original and so inferior that we have shitty things like poverty, cruelty, betrayal and suffering, and - at least if you believe Hesiod - the reason the gods left humanity to fend for themselves.

Cronus probably wouldn't even recognize current humanity; they'd disgust him. It's up to individual Storyteller call whether he would attempt to take the sorry mess of the Iron Age mortals and force them back into the wilderness, demanding that they give up all free will and personal power to live as the beasts of his fields again, or destroy them completely in order to clear the field for a new and better race to be born. Considering that Cronus certainly has a very active Vengeance Virtue and that Zeus irrevocably removed his people by lashing back at Prometheus, the odds of him not returning the favor seem very slim indeed.

As usual, the Titans have different priorities and values from the gods, even when they theoretically mean well, and whether or not a given group of Scions agree with them depends on their own personalities and backgrounds. Do they believe that Cronus is the good guy, who presided over a world in which no human was ever hurt or frightened or lost to tragedy, and who was overthrown by his own son who decided to take power for himself? Or do they believe that Zeus is the good guy, who gave humanity pain but also their own choices and the ability to shape their destinies, and who overthrew a corrupt king who killed his own children?

That's a question only the Scions themselves will be able to answer.

26 comments:

  1. And to re-iterate, the view of the golden age as really a hell on earth run by titanic virtues full of rape, stealing, and taking what you want with no law is bullshit from the writers to explain Cronus as the bad guy.

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  2. I can't even think of any Titanic Virtues Cronus definitely has, just lots of old fashioned Vengeance.

    I mean, maybe he has Ambition to overthrow his father and eat his children, but if that is true then so does Zeus.

    And that's only one out of the Titanic Virtues he /might/ have.

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    1. ^ Ambition, Vengeance, Rapacity, and Zealotry. That's how I'd play Cronus's virtues. I usually like to give Titanspawn/Titans three out of four 'Titan' virtues and one virtue unique to their Pantheon of origin. But that's just me...

      AAAND it's basically Assassin's Creed Templars vs. Assassins, with Cronus/Titans as Templars and Zeus/Olympians as Assassins. Cronus created a golden age of mankind free of want, but the people were subjugated and ignorant and ignorance is bliss, whereas Zeus allowed humanity its own choice and allowed them to be their own masters with free will, but thus created chaos and poverty and want.

      (Notice how in the above, Cronus has Ambition, Vengeance, Rapacity, and Zealotry...and therefore NOT Intellect, whereas the Dodekatheon very much definitely do? Think about that...)

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    2. I can definitely see Ambition replacing Intellect.

      Otherwise, could you cite your sources that might imply he has Rapacity and Zealotry?

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    3. I could see parlaying him eating his children into an expression of Rapacity, maybe. Definitely an unorthodox way of getting rid of them.

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    4. Eating your children sounds like a good use of Bezoar.

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    5. To be honest, ANY citations of Rapacity and Zealotry in Cronus will be me totally pulling it out of my ass most likely. I only say he has them because, as I said, my group runs it so that Titanspawn/Titans have Three Dark Virtues and one Virtue related to their pantheon. If it makes more sense to you that Cronus has Expression, Vengeance, Ambition, and Valor, or any combination thereof, there's nothing wrong with that.

      Sometimes our decision to do that works. Apep has Conviction, Malice, Rapacity, and Zealotry, something we feel really fits. On the other hand, Hestia probably has the Dodekatheon virtues totally unchanged, considering she's basically a Goddess in a Titanrealm. She -certainly- doesn't have ambition...

      It's just usually the way we balance between Titans having 'Titan Virtues' which we feel they should have since they're a feature of the game, and them definitely still being 'Gods' of their Pantheons.

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    6. @Jacob: The Templar/Assassin conflict was the first thing that popped into my mind too...probably because I have been watching the AC4 gameplay videos waaaaaaaaay too much lately.

      You wouldn't happen to have a list of those Titanic Virtue sets lying around would you? I find the concept of Titans retaining part of their divine Pantheon's world-view very interesting! :)

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    7. I've only seen the one video (I think from SDCC) where they introduced the Caribbean Open World. It looks good, though I'm worried in the games are going in a new direction and that's always scary!

      We didn't make them for ALL of the Titans yet and I insist that Glenn and I are not mythologists like John and Anne and that we just - like you - thought the concept of Titans retaining part of their divine Pantheon's world-view natural and really important and awesome. We've only done ones that have actually appeared or were part of our first look at the idea.

      -Cronus has Ambition, Vengeance, Rapacity, and Zealotry.
      -Apep has Conviction, Malice, Rapacity, and Zealotry.
      -Fire Giants have Courage, Malice, Rapacity, and Zealotry. Our reasoning for excluding Ambition is that they, by nature, are soldiers of Surtr and fanatically loyal to him (hence the Zealotry.) I'm sure you could change it on a case by case basis.
      -Surtr himself has Courage, Ambition, Malice, and Rapacity.
      -The Rakshasa who has been plaguing the band in my current game has Ambition, Malice, Rapacity, and Piety. (We play the Devas as having Piety instead of Order because they are the most Piety pantheon and their 'Order' aspects are more 'Harmony' in our eyes. Except for Yama, he's pretty Order, but he's the Lord of Samsara so I doubt he deviates from the chief four.) This Rakshasa is in a pretty awful situation because despite his horrible attitude and evil nature, he still recognizes the Devas as the almighty forces of the universe and worships them. Fortunately that does not apply to the rest of the Gods. And the Deva Scion won't 'pick up his phone' (come to the game.) So he can be a dick as much as he wants to be. :)

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    8. Nice to know I'm not the only one who doesn't hate Order for the Devas, though personally I always thought Duty, as the Virtue of carrying out your sacred Dharma was a much better fit than Piety (not that I haven't considered Piety for them too, I just haven't figured out what else to replace and Duty in my opinion is a must have for them). Which has actually always made me giggle, because that way the Devas and Yazata have effectively exchanged Virtues :D

      I really like the choices you've made though. I'm gonna go see if I can't do the same for the Hindu Avatars! Rahu should probably have Endurance instead of Zealotry, but I can't think of the others off the top of my head at the moment.

      And there is just the one video, I've just watched it over a dozen times :)

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    9. Anne actually has already spoken about Piety and Duty for the Devas in this post

      http://johnsscionresources.blogspot.in/2013/05/deva-decisions.html

      asked by yours truly. You might find it interesting.

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    10. Anne Has Spoken, like I'm Zarathustra himself. Ha. :)

      I love this Virtue conversation, though, I'm thinking about all sorts of Virtue possibilities now.

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    11. And I meant 'I'm not the only one who hates Order for the Devas', Gods, my Intellect is going into extremity at that little brain fart.

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    12. I generally assume that almost no Titans have all four Dark Virtues. In fact, I would probably say that your average Titan only has around two Dark Virtues, with a few uncommon fellows having one or three. Since she was mentioned earlier, I could only really see Zealotry for Hestia.

      Meanwhile, I also assume that some gods have Dark Virtues where it is appropriate, though rarely more than one before they start to venture over to the philosophical side of the Titans. Malice instead of Duty for Tezcatlipoca, and Rapacity instead of Valor for Zeus to name a few likely suspects.

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    13. Rahu is the epitome of Endurance.

      I see where you're coming from with the Duty. And I actually forgot that Anne didn't like Piety. Since our little discussion on Vishnu and Ramayana the other week, I've been watching the 2008 version of the Ramayana with Gurmeet Choudhary at home, and reading the Mahabharata at work, so I've been on a bit of a Deva binge.

      AND it seems like the Devas are just SO PIETY. The major difference I see between a Piety pantheon and a non Piety pantheon is that in a Piety pantheon, the Gods generally treat each other like Gods - even to them - whereas in non Piety pantheon they're more on the same level?

      Shiva approaches Vishnu and is like, 'oh holiest preserver, you are the most amazing and beautiful of the gods, beloved by Lakshmi, who sits on Shesha's back, with all the good fortune and perfection, I am unworthy to be in your presence' and Vishnu just nods serenely and smiles and is like, 'oh destroyer surely you have not forgotten the sacrifices you have made for gods and men, your selfless actions, how your blue throat reminds all men always of your great dignity' and Shiva just weeps openly and Vishnu smiles

      They are all up on one another obsessed with how amazing everybody is and that seems REALLY PIETY TO ME. Could you imagine happening over in the Mediterranean? Zeus would be like 'Hera you are so beautiful you are the most amazing you are more beautiful than all the ladies I've banged ever' and Hera's like 'oh just shut up and have sex with me so the Greeks will win' and Zeus is like 'what' and Hera's like 'nevermind.'

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    14. Ok, my verdicts for the Hindu Avatars:

      Rahu has Endurance in place of Zealotry, since I don't think he's particularly dedicated to the cause of the Titans in an organized way, he just wants to eat.

      Aranyani has Harmony in place of Rapacity, which I think is pretty straightforward given her place as Titan of Forests.

      Chandra has Intellect in place of Malice, since in Hindu astrology Chandra is actually supposed to be lord of intelligence.

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    15. I feel you on the Piety issue Jacob, and I think you make a good point. The only problem is...the Trimurti and the Tridevi are all over that 'you are soooooo amazing' stuff, but none of the Vedic Devas are!

      Which got me to thinking...Harmony, as keeping the balance of the natural world, is an important thing for the Vedic Devas, but it's not exactly top priority for the Trimurti and Co, who don;t even believe the natural world exists.

      So, how about if, for the Devas, your Virtue spread differed based on your divine parent's clique? The Vedic Devas have Duty, Intellect, Harmony and Endurance, while the Trimurti and Co have Duty, Intellect Piety and Endurance?

      Perhaps something similar could happen with the Aesir and Vanir? With Vanir Scions replacing Courage with Harmony and still getting to buy Jotunblut at standard cost?

      What do you guys think? Am I just taking too narrow a view on Harmony?

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    16. @Jacob:I still prefer the Ramanand Sagar version though. And in case you're interested, Grant Morrison of all people is making a web video series on the Mahabharata, and I know you haven't experienced that epic yet, so you might want to check it out.

      And seriously, every time one of the Trimurti starts off on a 'no, YOUR dick is larger' dialogues, I start screaming at the screen "there's a fucking demon on the loose eating people, get to the point already!!!"

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    17. First of all, I love the proposed Titan Virtue spreads.

      Second... hmm. While I think you could view the Trimurti and their cronies as having Harmony in the sense of finding their place in the universe and bringing all things into balance with the underlying divinity of Brahman, I also think you have a really great point. The Vedic Devas are not really doing the same things as the Trimurti; they're from the same religion, but from a much earlier era of it when core tenets and ideas were given very different levels of importance. The comparison to the Vanir is pretty apt, too. It sounds like something I'd probably have no problem with.

      (John always wants to run the Trimurti as Titans and the Vedic Devas as the pantheon that spawned them, for giant buckets of reasons having to do with their behavior and fundamental principles... but we don't do that because they're still gods with major and active religions, no matter how suspiciously cosmic and grandiose they like to be compared to their Vedic cousins. :)

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    18. But Samudra... if they didn't compare dick sizes all the time, how would they keep up their enormous and comfortable egos? The Trimurti need to be told how awesome they are as often as possible!

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    19. @Anne: the Aesir and the Devas are the only two Pantheons I can think of that legitimately have a case for Virtue bifurcation like that, where there is a clear division in the Pantheon on the subject of core beliefs, instead of just one or two Gods who clearly don't follow the party line. Are there any others?

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    20. And I'm glad you like the Titan spread! :D

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  3. ^ while I still think Vishnu's not that bad of a guy, I will readily concede he is one hell of a cocky guy. But granted, he can bust out of a pillar as a part-man, part-lion, part-god and tear you apart with his massive claws because he heard you were talking shit. I'd be pretty cocky too!

    The Trimurti DO seem pretty Titanic, especially Brahma, but at the same time they really, really don't. Vishnu's whole purpose is to aid and protect humanity. Shiva's done so much to help people despite his grim purpose. They are most definitely Godly. Again, except Brahma. Brahma could easily go in the Titanrealm with Svarog and family. But if you've got Brahma as a Titan and the other two as Gods, when they've already established they're equal in power, it gets awkward.

    (Yay! Anne liked something I came up with!!)

    The more I think on it, the more I think Samudra's right about Duty being a must have. I've been writing off the commitment to Dharma as being Piety in itself, but Duty fits it better. I still think Harmony is a thing for both Vedic Gods and Trimurti - the Trimurti aren't so much focused on the continuity of the physical world, so much as the cycle of Samsara itself. When something obstructs the cycle of birth, life, death, and rebirth, the Gods spring into action. That seems pretty Harmony to me.

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    1. Anne Has Spoken!

      So glad you like the Duty idea. But if you keep Harmony, what do you plan on replacing with Piety?

      I also say the Trimurti and Co should be playable Gods, not Titans. The only Titanic aspect to them is the ridiculous levels of power they claim to have, and I always put that down to things like having more mortal cultists than any other pantheon giving them insane positive Fatebonds to things they're good at, along with a very healthy dose of ego. Other than that, they are very close to Humanity and interact with them often, and are always working for humanity's benefit (mostly).

      Besides, then we'd have no Kali and half the Scion players who go for Devas would be orphaned!

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    2. Fun fact: never had a player interested in Kali. Players are either terrified of her, or prefer a less frenzied, savage divine patron. We've tooled around with the idea of merely using her Durga personage as the god parent and her "Kali" personage as her war form, or having Parvati and Kali as the same goddess but you take after one side or the other...

      Either way nobody's interested in diving into that bag right now. Pity, since Kali is pretty awesome.

      If I were to take Duty I'd just swap Piety with it. You make a very convincing argument that while the Trimurti adore each other, Indra, Surya, and Agni do really hate each other. Would help my Rakshasa out a whole lot if he doesn't have to worship any Deva Scions anymore! :)

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    3. Technically, if your Deva Scion isn't a God yet, he really shouldn't have to worship him. Should he?

      And maybe I'm just prejudiced towards Kali. I come from the city of Kolkata, and she's our patron Goddess (in fact, the city's named after her).

      I definitely approve of using Durga though (I'm so torn between Avatars and Ultimates and new God profiles just for the chance to see her on the site), but I might point out that Durga and Kali should probably not be treated as personas of each other...unless you rule that Parvati is yet another of those personae. These three Goddesses are kind of in a sticky situation where Hindu mythology likes to say they're the same person, but they clearly have very different roles in myth.

      Durga is the charismatic war leader and strategist, Parvati is the manipulative woman behind the man, and Kali is the horrifying Dark Mother (I just realized, they're perfect poster children for Epic Chrisma, Manipulation and Appearance!).

      I'd suggest Charisma, Appearance, Strength, War and Guardian for Durga, but of course it's your game, you should stat her the way you feel is appropriate.

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