Question: Are there ANY gods that could be considered wholly 'good' by today's modern standards and definitions, or are they all just giant dicks?
Well, this is really an unanswerable question, because there's no such thing as "today's modern standards" as an umbrella term. Different cultures worldwide have very different ideas of what is and is not morally okay, and since we do not yet live in the Utopia of Earth (come on, Star Trek, hurry up and happen already!), there's no universal constant or definition for good and evil. Some countries consider killing in any form completely immoral and abhorrent; others, including the United States, still practice capital punishment. Some religions consider balance in all things to be necessary to life, and others strictly prohibit some behaviors and pleasures in pursuit of righteousness. Some parts of the world think of circumcision (for either sex) as a horrifying mutilation of children, and others merrily continue with it as an institutionalized and ubiquitous practice. Even within the same society, there are still vast differences and arguments on these and many more subjects, and without the distance and focus of being able to look back at history, we can't make too many generalizations about what "modern people" think is right and wrong. (Well, not without probably being inaccurate, anyway.)
I think you're mostly asking about the basics - are there any gods who don't indulge in things like murder, rape, theft, coercion, treason or assault? And the answer is sure, there are definitely a few, including Guanyin of China and most of the Yazata of Persia. But even they could be argued by some to be not wholly good; are the Yazata really good when their religious fanaticism leads them to label an entire other race as evil demons? Is Guanyin truly good when she offers enlightenment and compassion but doesn't use her divine powers to actually ease anyone's material suffering since she wants them to learn from and escape it? Different people are going to come up with different answers. Morality, in history as well as now, is always a continuum of grey that every person sees in different shades.
As a generality, the overwhelming majority of gods are, as you put it, giant dicks. That doesn't mean their people thought of them that way, but rather that they came from cultures with radically different values and morals than we may be familiar with or willing to accept. And even within those cultures, often they're giant dicks - see Odin and Loki, Yam and Baal, Set and Horus, or any other gods that intentionally do things they know are not okay for their own ends. These aren't the omnipotent, all-loving gods of the monotheistic religions; they are personalities, and like every personality, they don't always make the best choice they could.
Basically, ancient gods were generally conceived of by their worshipers as people - giant people, incredibly powerful people, awesome and beyond comprehension people, but people nonetheless. And, just like their own mortal worshipers for whom they functioned as giant mirrors, they made bad decisions, acted out of selfishness or greed or anger, turned to violence, refused to consider the feelings of others, and every other sin most of us commit at some point in our lives. Like humans, they are never "wholly good", because like humans they have emotions and desires and motivations that don't always lead to perfection. From an ancient perspective, they could be nothing else - how could they represent and control a whole society of people who acted that way, if they did not act that way themselves? Where else did humanity learn jealousy or covetousness or wrath, if not from the gods who shaped them and their society?
So no, none of them are "wholly good". But neither are any of us, nor the Scions we play, so that's perfectly okay.
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ReplyDeleteWhat do you mean by 'screw around'? The Aesir pretty much expect every Scandinavian to live up to their virtues constantly. The Deva are the same. Meanwhile the Dodekatheon prank/torture their people a lot, but generally allow a lot more social freedoms.
DeleteAutonomy is a major part of the virtues of the Dodekatheon. Expression and Intellect are all about being the best you can be at your profession, and changing the world, and Valor is all about being the best soldier you can be, being an example of glory and heroism upon the battlefield. You can't be these things if you don't have the "social freedoms" to achieve them. Even slaves, and lower class people, were encouraged to prove their worth and be great to earn their liberty and become freedmen, or to rise in status and be powerful in their own right.
DeleteBut Vengeance is a virtue too. If you don't avenge yourself or your family, you are a coward and worthless and the Gods forsake you. (To be or not to be, when the Orestian choice of "avenge yourself against yourself or your family" inevitably comes up.)
All Gods expect their mortal worshippers to adhere to their virtues, that's the whole point behind the virtue mechanic existing in Scion - it's a major part of who they are and what they expect of people. Whether or not said virtues are strict in law or religion or totally lax and humanist is...completely irrelevant. Gods are Gods being Gods.
The pantheon that screws with mortals the least is the Bogovi. Because it's illegal!
DeleteMaybe I am more lenient towards Gods who only do "dick" things for the greater good...mostly because they are Gods and they generally understand the greater good better than we do. I mean, even Jesus Christ, who by modern day expectations (at least in most of Europe and the Americas) is the paragon of all that is moral and good, Virtue Extremitied at the sight of merchants in Solomon's Temple because it was disrespectful to God, and condoned taxes and imperialism and corruption simply because, "why do you even care? Be good and humble and you will go to Heaven where none of this exists."
ReplyDeleteSo yeah. Gods just see things on a higher level than we do. It's the basis for my Vishnu argument the other week, and I stand by it with Guanyin as well. If pain and suffering are necessary to reach enlightenment, and enlightenment is eternal and painless and Guanyin's -job- is to help you reach that, then it's less "dickish" and more "tough love."
Sure. But then again, I'm sure many of the Titans would say that wiping the universe clean of things they don't agree with and replacing them with their own stuff is also "tough love". The world isn't going to get there on its own. Everything will be better afterward. Sometimes you have to do unpleasant things for a good end result.
DeleteMorality is, as always, subjective to the person looking at a given situation.
So John is a Titan?
DeleteJohn's more like a God looking out for the greater good I think. After all, he decided that the Industry fix was more important and we got Artistry out of it.
DeleteBut my counter argument to the Titans (and given...other arguments going on right now, I just wanted to take some time to say I respect you and your opinion and I see where you're coming from and I'm only arguing out of a sense of healthy debate) - I feel like the difference between the Gods and the Titans and their idea of the greater good is that Gods will actually deliver and get you what you what if you follow them and their virtues. Vishnu will preserve you and protect you. Guanyin will help you reach enlightenment, if you're willing to endure material suffering in the meantime.
The Titans just want to destroy the world for their own purposes and are so far beyond humanity that even if they think they know what is "best" for them, they're probably wrong. Not that there aren't Titans who might be morally right...just as there are a plethora of Gods who are definitely, definitely, morally in the wrong (Zeus, Odin, every King God as previously stated.)
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ReplyDeleteDude, Norse gods cause ceaseless wars that kill thousands of people. Freya's endless battle is one of them; the war between the Langobards and Vandals is another, which was really just a front for Odin and Frigg to try to prove who had the bigger manipulating-people dick. And speaking of Odin and Frigg using manipulation to argue with one another while mortals die over it, check out the part of Grimnismal where they decide to have a competition over whose human foster child is better, which ends in said foster children and their families being dead.
DeleteAlso, I would not bring up Rind, my friend. That story ends up with him getting into her room in disguise, tying her to the bed and raping her. It is not a story of non-abuse.
I think the actual distinction here is not that the Aesir are nicer to mortals, but that they just don't interact with mortals as much as some pantheons, and therefore have less opportunity to be jerks to them. Greek gods interact with mortals all the time, so there are of course many more stories of them being huge dicks to them than there are for the Norse gods, who actually almost never talk to anybody except giants and each other. There are more stories of Greek gods being nice to mortals than there are for Norse, too - it seems like an issue of quantity to me.
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ReplyDeleteMy point is that they both do those terrible things. The fact that the Greeks have the Trojan and Indian wars doesn't somehow make the same behavior out of the Norse excusable. I'm not sure how you think the wager between Odin and Frigg is fine because they're a "warrior culture", but the Greek gods doing almost exactly the same thing - puppeteering a war of mortals for their own conflict regardless of how many die - is somehow worse. They're a warrior culture, too. It's why they have so many wars.
DeleteIf you want to talk about modern mores, Odin's rape of Rind is in no way "less of a bastard" because he did it as a means to an end instead of because he wanted to have sex with her. No motivation for rape ever makes its perpetrator more ethical. In fact, treating Rind as not even a person but a mere object he had to use for his own ends by raping and impregnating her is one of the most vile things I can think of. I don't give a shit about Fate telling him to do that; Fate also tells him to die at Ragnarok, but he's not volunteering for that. And no matter who told him to do it, it's his moral failing - his EPIC moral failing - that he made the choice to go ahead and do that despicable thing.
Those Norse stories absolutely do have symbolic value and mythic resonance! Mythology is awesome that way. But the stories of the Greek conflicts also have symbolic value and mythic resonance, so it's not much of an argument to bring up one and not the other.
Also, just an aside, but the story of Odin and Rind isn't in Volsunga; it's in the Gesta Danorum. Vali's birth is mentioned the Voluspa, but without explaining the events that surrounded his conception.
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ReplyDeleteIt's completely fine if you find them more palatable. It's also completely fine for you to prefer them, play with them more, or anything else you like.
DeleteIt's not fine to insult my powers of comprehension, though, so cut it out. I understand what you're saying perfectly. I just disagree with it.
My comments and this whole discussion is because I am a pagan and find the Aesir more worthy of worship than the Dodekatheon.
ReplyDeleteThat's not very objective...and honestly not really that excusable. In fact, it offends my Roman sensibilities. That phrasing is really rude, especially. "The Aesir are -more worthy of worship- than the Dodekatheon." This is a whole other debate, one that is honestly too heated for a JSR comment thread.
DeleteThat's totally fine - far be it from us to tell you who you ought to worship. But you also need to recognize that there are plenty of people on here who don't share your religious views, and that they therefore may be approaching a conversation from a place of scholarly study or game mechanics or different religions altogether. It would probably help everyone not offend one another if you mentioned it when you're making a personal religious call.
DeleteAlso, while we totally want to respect your religion, please do everyone else the courtesy of the same. I know for a fact there are Hellenistic Reconstructionists who frequent this site, too, and who worship the gods of ancient Greece and Rome, and they probably don't appreciate you saying their religion isn't worthy of worship any more than you would appreciate a Christian or Buddhist saying the same thing about yours.