Wednesday, August 7, 2013

Distinguished Heavenly Gods

Question: So, what gods would you be looking at, if the Amatsukami rewrite won? What direction is Tsukumo-gami going to take? Any changes in the virtues *cough Harmony cough*? Raiden, Izanami and Izanagi - Titans? What is Tsuki-yomi's relationship with his pantheon?

Oh, man, I meant to post this with the recent glut of Discussion of Things On the Poll! The Amatsukami rewrite isn't a frontrunner right now, but hey, maybe the wind will change.

The Amatsukami are a mess in the RAW, as you've no doubt heard us complain many times in the past. Gods that should be there aren't, gods that have no business being there are core members, their PSP is busted, their cosmology is weird, their Titans are nonsensical, and they spend most of their time in our games crying in the corner. We need to fix them ninety ways, and while we are totally excited about them finally getting to shine, the project's been backburnered for a while thanks to John's pantheon-fatigue and the fact that we currently don't have any Japanese-heavy elements in our games so it hasn't been a priority for our players.

Things that we want to tinker with include, in no particular order:

  • Pantheon Roster. There are people on here who should never have been playable gods, with Raiden being the most obvious example; he's an ogre-monster who eats people and has never done anything positive in his loud and destructive life. He's most likely only there thanks to name recognition from the Mortal Kombat series, and you can probably guess how legit we think that should be as a justification. Conversely, several major Shinto figures, including Uzume, Inari and Sarutahiko, are mysteriously absent, which we can only assume is because they didn't fit the original pantheon "parameters" that most of the core six fall into or nobody wanted to bring in one of the Kunitsukami and confuse everyone by calling him Amatsukami instead. Regardless, the entire roster needs cleaning up to introduce those gods who deserve spots and get everyone else kicked back out into the Titanrealms where they belong.
  • PSP. Tsukumo-gami has a very solidly Shinto idea behind it, but it's a pretty sorry mess of a purview that needs some love desperately. It's very underpowered, for one thing, and pretty blurry about what exactly it does and affects when compared to other powers (can you use it on "inanimate" objects that are still living, like trees? what about inanimate substances that aren't objects, like water or fire? does it infringe on other purviews? when you separate a kami from an item, what the heck are its stats?), neither of which is helping Amatsukami Scions do neat stuff with it. We're also currently questioning its core concept as well; the word "tsukumogami" refers specifically to items that have become old and powerful enough to gain awareness and personality of their own, but Scion allows the use of the purview on any inanimate object, which is a little bit mythically dissonant. Of course, we also wouldn't want the purview to only be usable on museum pieces... unless maybe it was really awesome? The idea of the eight million kami is a potent one, covering the Shinto concept of spirits in everything and the neat way that interacts with Scion's usual setup of things either being gods or mortal, and we'd love to let Scions play with it. But no matter what we do, the conceptual purpose of the purview needs clarification. More neat powers, less confusion, better Japanese-ness!
  • Titans. Titans are their own separate project, so this won't be happening all at once, but a lot of the figures on the Amatsukami roster that we'll be removing will probably in turn become Titans. At the same time, their current Titans are something of a clusterfuck; we've already fixed poor Mikaboshi, so he can take his rightful place among the stars instead of being a weird primordial darkness monster from a comic book, but Kaminokaze could also stand to be restored to his actual persona as Fujin, Raiden's equally unpleasant brother.

We probably will also revisit the Virtues, but I'm not sure they need a lot of tweaking, to be honest. I actually love Harmony for them because it dovetails so beautifully with the Shinto ideal of purification and pollution, where rituals and behavior must be carefully observed to preserve the good balance and purity of things and any deviation causes horrible imbalances and problems. It's not the tree-hugging variety of Harmony, but I think it's a good representation of the idea nonetheless. Duty and Valor are probably in there in deference to the samurai ideals of Japan's bushido period, and the first at least I wholeheartedly agree with (jury's still out on Valor, pending more close examination).

As for Tsukiyomi, he'll certainly still be on the pantheon roster, making his surly way across the night skies. His banishment from Amaterasu's presence certainly chafes at him (especially if you happen to follow the version of court mythology in which she was his wife as well as sister), and it probably makes interacting with the entire pantheon difficult, but he's still one of the three August Siblings and deserves the respect that goes along with it. Some of his banishment may actually be ameliorated at the moment, since his skills and presence are probably needed in the fight against the Titans; but then again, maybe not, since his sister is not exactly known for being forgiving or tolerant.

The Amatsukami are not actually in as bad shape as many pantheons; they don't have the total-conceptual-overhaul problem that the Loa did, don't need an entirely new PSP invented like the Aesir and aren't plagued by the character assassination that laid the Aztlanti low. They're just underwhelming at the moment rather than really broken, and need a little spit, polish and loving care.

17 comments:

  1. And here is my question... or, well questions for that matter :D

    My problem with Harmony is one: That it is not part of their official virtue line up. I think with the disembowling of Uke Mochi we have quite the textbook case of a Harmony virtue extremity I think.

    Expression is another one I think is fitting? Susanoo's and Amaterasu's feud started with an art contest, and a dancing women got her out of her cave.

    Duty... not sold on that one, actually. Amaterasu hiding in her case for one thing is as contrary to Duty as it gets.

    And with all the spats and clashes between them, Loyalty is another shaky candidate.

    I am not to well read on them though, so I might be missing critical stories from gods that aren't in the traditional line-up.

    Any literature recommendations?

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    1. Yeah, I'm a big fan of Harmony. We'll need to do a lot of work to get the best setup, though. Sometimes a story of a god doing a thing is a great example of the pantheon having a Virtue, and sometimes it's an example of that particular god having a different Virtue or rolling against his Virtue to misbehave. You have to look for patterns and not just incidents.

      A nice solid place to start for Japanese mythology is Michael Ashkenazi's Handbook of Japanese Mythology, which covers a lot of good ground. You can also read some of the original source materials, like the Kojiki and Nihongi, online for free.

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  2. I will agree that the Psp is very core shinto beliefs.. but then So is Sun, and that's my issue with Animism as a PSP its a central premise to my mythological setups(I Mean that would really cut the feet under Tengrism and even the romans had some touch upon it with House Hold gods, Genus Locii etc)


    I think ritual purity would be a stronger theme for them, while other Pantheons do practice it, I don't think they hit that level of devotion.

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    1. I personally have a large issue with the idea of only the Amatsukami being able to see or interact with these spirits. It brings up really interesting questions like "Why can't I sense them with my epic perception?" and "Why can't I interact with them with my Death/Fertility/Whatever."

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    2. YUUPPPPPPPPP. That was my first and strongest complaint about their psp.

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    3. We allways chalked it up to different perceptions of the universe. Like the Deva understanding that the universe is an illusion and working with it. Shouldn't a character with high enough intelligence be able to see through the illusion as well? No, because it's a perspective unique to the Deva. Same with the Amatsukami and items. I admit this is just an asspull because we needed some jsutification for their PSP to exist, but that is what we went with.

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  3. Now you mention that you and John are suffering from pantheon-fatigue (yep that's a thing now), but wouldn't the Japanese, or Chinese for that matter, at least fit into your Eastern Promises game? Those two cultures were fucked by Europeans back then (along with everyone else) so I think their introduction would be sweet.

    (Totally not one of your Players, most definitely not. ;)

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  4. Concerning your Progress Bars ... is there a reason the secret project is back down to zero or is it a problem similar to when the votes on the polls suddenly disappeared. Also Sangria Fiction changed colour and (I think) also went back a bit ...

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    1. It hasnt changed for me...actually I t hink maybe it changed color but is the same %? But yeah, blogger is just buggy as shit.

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    2. I'm not sure what's up with them. I changed the color on Sangria's bar because it kept dropping to zero when it was red (?!), so it's now yellow. I'm seeing the Secret Project as still having progress on it, though!

      Sigh... I'll dig around later and see if I can find a less buggy alternative.

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    3. Now the Titanrealms bar has gone blank! :O

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    4. Damnation, what are you doing, hoster?!

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  5. oh the Amatsukami, how I'd love to see you in your resplendent glory. Unfortunately, you are absolutely right about them being 'not in as bad shape.' The Celestial Bureaucracy are terrible, the Loa weren't what they should have been (and now are,) and the Nemetondevos are a mess. By comparison, the Amatsukami are still a fully functioning pantheon with a rather poor but still fully functioning PSP.

    So there are other things I'd rather see happening first. (come on lower legend gods, why must you be at war with the Enech Overhaul.)

    BUUUUT in terms of the post itself -
    - I'd like to see Kaminokaze's place in the eventual Sky Titanrealm to be replaced by Fujin and Raijin together as brothers. They're inseparable in myth as they together (Wind and Thunder) make the Storm itself. The fact that they both represent the two parts of the Sky purview is pretty cool too.

    -The Amatsukami definitely have Duty. The argument above about Amaterasu hiding in the cave as an example of why they don't...makes no sense. That myth even more emphasizes the importance of Duty to the Amatsukami, as Amaterasu shirking her Duty is what causes the world to go dark and everybody to be miserable.

    -Harmony definitely feels very Japanese, but at the same time I'm seeing the Devas and the Shen as both having Harmony and I'm just wondering if maybe the pan-Asian Harmony thing might be less Shinto and more Buddhist influence? I see where Anne's coming from with the 'insistence on purity' as part of the religion though.

    All in all I just always really liked Duty, Endurance, Intellect, and Valor as the four virtues of the Amatsukami. I feel they fit very well. Maybe there will be disagreements but when the Amatsukami are one day in their resplendent glory I will no doubt be too bedazzled to care! :)

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    1. There really is a lot of Harmony going on among the Asian pantheons, and conversely not nearly as much of that batshit Courage that the gods of the west favor. Differences in religious philosophy. :)

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    2. I must honestly say Jacob, that we disagree on Duty.
      Her hiding in her cave is in my eyes a clear cut case of her not having Duty as a virtue. Sure, she has the (lower case) duty to let the sun shine, but if she can neglect that job at all for a prolonged time, she does not have the virtue Duty. I hope this is comprehdible, since english isn't my mother tongue, andeven in german I'd have problems of wording it in a way that is clear and not based on sementics :/

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    3. I don't know Jeff. Amaterasu strikes me as the kind of Goddess who would override her own Virtues if she thought it was the thing to do to establish her status as Empress. And that is essentially what she's doing:showing the rest of the Pantheon that she should not be fucked around with.

      Or, she could be the one Goddess amongst them who don't have it (though I have an intense dislike of Gods not following the Pantheon Virtue setup). Either way, given the overwhelming importance in Japanese culture of knowing your place and acting in accordance to its dictates, I definitely think the Amatsukami should have it.

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