Question: Questions about Water Mastery! What happens when you want to make a stunt to attack with ice? Does Mastery cover that or do you have to use Changing States on top of it? And if you do, do you end up getting triple Water Boons total as autos, or does it count as a different attack? Also, is the damage on both boons Lethal or Bashing? On a different note, how do you handle multiple attacks with it? Is it limited to two like everything else, or can you go all tsunami on armies and the like?
Answers about Water Mastery!
Water Mastery - and all other Water boons, for that matter - affects water only in its liquid state; if it's frozen and solid, it falls under the Frost purview instead. We know that's weird because Science, but by now we should all be used to the fact that Scion's mythological rules don't care about science when it gets in the way. If you want to use your Water boons to attack people and there's only ice around, you'll need to blow Changing States first to get something you can work with.
(Obligatory note from John: whenever we do our overhaul of the elemental purviews, Changing States is probably going to go away, or at least change significantly; right now it's one of those science boons that doesn't really make sense in a mythological setting. But until then, change all the states!)
Once you have some water, you'll use Water Mastery as normal, which means you won't be stacking its effects with those of Changing States (as a general rule of thumb, any time you think you might be getting triple your boons, that's probably wrong and/or broken). So the sequence of events will look something like this:
1) You need water. There's only ice. You use Changing States to turn it into water.
2) You can also hit people in the face with it for the usual Changing States damage, if you want to.
3) You can now use Water Mastery on this water that you've created from the ice, and hit people with it for the usual Water Mastery damage.
Using Water Mastery is a separate action from using Changing States, so you'll need to do the one before you can do the other and it won't be instantaneous. You can use both at once with a double action, but if both are happening simultaneously, the Changing States won't have turned the ice into liquid yet so the Water Mastery will have nothing to target and simply fail. If there was enough water and ice around for you to do both, you could do a double action (with the normal penalty for doing so) and use both at once, but their rolls wouldn't stack; each would deal damage as normal and be soaked by enemies separately.
You can always use two boons at once (or the same boon twice) in a double-action, but I think you're asking more about flooding an entire area and hoping to hit everyone in it. In most cases, we probably wouldn't allow you to make an attack that way; you could certainly flood it and maybe knock people down, but you'll only be able to use the boon to deal damage against a single target. Alternatively, with a good stunt and reason, we might let you try to slap everyone with the water (perhaps with some dice negatives), but instead of being a multiple action, it would be a single action and your targets would treat it like any other area-of-effect danger, meaning they'd roll their Dexterity + Athletics to try to avoid it rather than you just trying to hit their DV.
Of course, if you have Multi-Tasking, you can use Water Mastery a bunch of times simultaneously and totally smack your enemies around with it.
I have a strong feeling that John is going to have lots of things to add to this post... so watch this space.
I think Changing States should stay, but it should be restricted to doing just that: changing states.
ReplyDeleteThe additional 'attack with shards of ice or blasts of steam' needs to go.
I'm torn on it. On the one hand, it generally feels to me like something a water-god should be able to do... but on the other, it's not something any water-god I've ever heard of actually does do, and it infringes weirdly on the Frost and Sky purviews, which are already covering ice and air and their mythical symbolism. It's a boon that I can't justify mythically, but am still kind of stumped on.
DeleteI think the Water Purview will always have problems of this nature because, as far as I know, ALL Water Gods EVER do in with their element in myth is live underwater and flood things. If we were to stick to mythology too closely for this one, we would end up with a Purview that has two Boons: Water Breathing and Flood (and possibly Mermaid's Kiss). As it is half the Purview is nothing but the exact same Boon powered up.
DeleteConsider it similar to the tidal and madness powers in Moon. No Moon God ever literally commands the tides, or madness. but the concepts are mythically related enough for the Boons to exist. Similarly, I think changing Water to its other two states is probably a power Water Gods should have (and again, I stress transformation, not control).
DeleteIt's not like there isn't overlap between sme purviews anyway. I mean, Frost and Sky can both create blizzards.
Well, you would not get much mileage out of using Changing States and Water Mastery as part of a multiple action. Since the actions are simultaneous, the ice had not yet turned into water when Water Mastery goes to check and see if there is any water around.
ReplyDeleteYeah, that's what I was trying to say up there, albeit more clumsily. :)
Delete[Insert obligatory statement about Multi-Tasking being OP]
ReplyDeleteYes, yes, we know. ;) It's still very cost-prohibitive, since using eight Water Masteries at once would cost 40 Legend and 8 Willpower which most Scions aren't going to have just sitting around... but if they could do that and instant-win, they probably don't care about being energy-broke afterward.
DeleteIt's on our list of things to work on.
You know, I am not certain if it is cost-prohibitive. Let me see if I can explain myself! I'll be talking about Water Mastery below, but really this applies to any knack or boon that works with Multi-Tasking.
DeleteMulti-Tasking costs nothing and is always on, so there is no cost to use it in Legend, Willpower, or Actions.
God 1 chooses to use Water Mastery eight times in a single turn. He does this because he thinks it is the most effective use of his actions for whatever reason.
God 2 chooses to use Water Master eight times across four turns. He does this because unless circumstances change from one turn to the next, he thinks it is the most effective use of his actions for whatever reason.
In this example, God 2 uses four times as many turns, spends the exact same resources, and exposes himself to four times as many turns worth of retaliation. The only thing God 2 gains is a chance to observe the outcome of his actions and make different decisions.
BUT! I have to stress the fact that God 1 is only making the decision to use Water Mastery eight times because he thinks it is the best thing he could be doing. He is under no compulsion to use all eight actions and can choose to use whatever number of Water Mastery he thinks will not result in overkill.
God 1 is only risking wasted resources on overkill, and overkill is only going to happen if the character miscalculates. This can and will happen, but the benefit of Multi-Tasking also happens to be tied to an Epic Attribute that is extremely good at judging whether or not it will result in Overkill.
The thing is that this presumes that both God 1 and God 2 have that full 40 Legend + 8 Willpower to burn on Water Mastery. For most PCs I've seen across games, that's almost never true; they rarely have that much Legend sitting around unused, and even more rarely are willing to blow it all at once. It's enormously costly no matter how many actions they choose to do it in.
Delete(Of course, costliness is the drawback of relying on only elemental powers for combat in general, no matter how quickly you think you should be using them. We've only had one player who used elemental attacks exclusively for that reason, and Legend shortages were always his bane.)
Using it 8 times is cost prohibitive. That doesnt really change for either god. Or it should be, if it isnt, we've fucked up costs somewhere.
DeleteThat doesnt change your argument. Multi-tasking is WAY overpowered at god level as is. But a LOT of things are "over" powered at god. At the same time, there are so many things you need "going" at the start of a combat that without multitasking, many knacks/boons couldnt get used. It needs some serious balancing.
Yes, but it is equally costly for God 1 and God 2.
DeleteIf they have fewer resources, then they are going to make different choices. But the end result is going to be identical to the example I wrote above, except that "Eight Water Mastery" is going to be replaced with whatever those gods decide to use instead.
It is like a balanced equation in Algebra. As long as God 1 and God 2 are making the same choices then God 1 has a dramatic advantage in the action economy, his only risk is overkill, and he is well equipped to make choices that will not result in overkill very often.
(Oops, was writing my reply to Anne and did not notice John's post)
DeleteSorry, we did kinda double-team you!
DeleteThe way you just described it....makes it sound like a great intelligence knack though. Im not sure what the fix would be. Remember though, its the same powerlevel as unbreakable, last act, and divine marksmen. They can do some insanely powerful things.
DeleteWhy not just disallow legendary actions (I hate calling them 'supernatural'), and bring it down a tier or two?
DeleteThat is where it started....and it was useless and no one had ever taken it.
DeleteBecause then it becomes super lackluster and nobody's interested in it anymore. I mean, it's nice to be able to play eight games of chess at once or do a complex math equation while also driving your car... but Scions past Legend 3 don't usually care very much. Most of the things they're doing need to be magical, especially once their foes are all doing the same, so Multitasking being relegated only to non-Legendary actions makes it a little too Hero-level-only.
DeleteWe need to find a happy medium... as in all things. Sigh!
And....8 games of chess is something really good chess players can do as mortals.
DeleteThen how about limiting it to Knacks?
DeleteFrom a mechanical perspective, Knacks are generally weaker than Boons, and from a lore perspective, Boons are powers of the Titans, at the end of day foreign powers that the Gods have only brought to heel through Relics. It just seems to me that activating a Boon is fundamentally more than just a mental thing...if that makes any sense?
Anyway, I'm just throwing ideas here.
Definitely an option to think about.
DeleteMy games houserule it allowing strictly mental actions, which for us means only Perception/Intelligence/Wits Knacks and some Boons that roll any of those attributes (or boons that have no roll).
DeleteWe've also houseruled Opening Gambit so that anything that allows more than 2 actions per turn can't be used along with it.
We might be overnerfing them... but so far it's worked pretty well for us... we're nowhere near God level yet though, highest characters we got right now are Legend 7.
Yeah, we could chat back and forth all day about the pros and cons of the current incarnation of Multi-tasking, but it would be a lot more productive if I just fire off some ideas. Feel free to steal anything that happen to like!
DeleteThe following ideas go in whatever tier you want:
1) Removes the -4 die multiple action penalty, and you gain +4 successes on any Perception, Intelligence, or Wits based rolls as you compare and contrast ideas against each other simultaneously.
2) Spend Legend and/or Willpower, then perform three Social or Mental based actions at the usual multiple action penalty (Blitzkrieg for Social/Mental).
3) Gain 1/2/3 bonus actions at Hero/Demigod/God. These can only be used on diceless actions, actions that use Perception, Intelligence, or Wits on their activation rolls.
4) Spend Legend and/or Willpower. Multi-tasking does what it currently does for one round. You skip your next round as you recover from mental exhaustion.
5) Spend legend reflexively at the beginning of your turn, and perform two mental or social actions normally. Next turn you repeat those two mental or social actions, in addition to taking your usual turn. You are responsible for any costs of the repeated mental or social actions.
6) You can take a number of actions each turn equal to your total dots of Epic Intelligence., and you no longer suffer the -4 die multiple action penalty. However, each action after the second must be a mental or social action, and only gains 50% of the total successes made on any activation rolls. (this makes it much less likely to be used offensively, still useful for diceless actions, defenses, and killing mooks).
Considering how terribly White Wolf's system deals with people taking multiple actions, I'd be just as happy to see that ability removed entirely. Each tick you get to do one thing, that's it. You wanna do things faster, lower your Speed.
DeleteCelerity was a nightmare in VtM, Rage actions are a nightmare in Werewolf, multiple attack Charms are a nightmare in Exalted and Scion was doing REALLY WELL by stripping away almost every avenue to take multiple actions in one tick. Then it throws Multitasking back in and POOF, there goes the neighborhood.
I know it's nice to be able to represent being super-super-fast or super-super reactive, but when Hilda gets to take twice as many actions as Gunter, Hilda is ALWAYS going to win. For every whatever Gunter does, Hilda gets to do two whatevers. It doesn't matter if Gunter's whatevers are 150% as effective as Hilda's, because Hilda is getting two 100% whatevers to his single 150%.
Extra action powers are multiplicative in a system where everything else is additive. They just plow anything else over, even if they're cost-prohibitive because they're always, always worth that cost.
Also weird that it is in Intelligence.
DeleteDoing things really fast is Dexterity.
Thinking things really fast is Wits.
Neither of those is Intelligence.
It's not really about doing things fast, though; it's about doing things simultaneously, which is really about concentration and focus. Intelligence is the stat that governs ability to concentrate on things and/or think about them, and thus the knack that has to do with being able to think about several things at once is in Intelligence. Wits allows insane reaction time, but without Intelligence you still can't really concentrate on or think through more than one thing at once; Dexterity allows you to do things quickly in a physical sense, but Multi-Tasking specifically only applies to mental actions, not physical ones.
DeleteQuestion-asker here, thanks for the answer. :) Yeah, the wrong and/or broken part came up in my group when the Water demigod managed to one-shot a relatively sturdy enemy in a single turn by activating both boons at once... we (and by we I mean me, I'm a mechanics monster) have been wondering how it really works, but it mostly makes sense now.
ReplyDeleteOnly one more thing is left unclear for me, is the damage for those Boons lethal or bashing? Since it isn't really specified on either of their descriptions. (I want to say that Changing States is lethal and Water Mastery is bashing... but I'd rather be sure about those as well.)
By demigod, changing states should do....pretty much zero damage to anything of consequence. And I think I think you're right about the damage, although I could also see changing states being bashing. Water getting a "fix" is a top priority though.
DeleteWhile we're on the topic - is the cost of Changing States 1 legend and 1 willpower per attack, or does it make the "water in its new state" a viable weapon for the rest of the scene with no additional cost?
ReplyDeletePer attack. The attack is really the very quick change in states. Once it changes, its still just a normal block of ice(wall of steam).
DeleteIve played a Water/frost guy in the past and honestly Change states is mediocre to me. Ive always liked using Water Mastery since it can use strength to grab someone and since i always have Hrimthurssar’s Touch (Frost * * *) on if in a fight, I would use that to instantly flash freeze a large portion of that water mainly the one holding the person either for interrogation or to make them a stationary punching bag.
ReplyDelete