Wednesday, May 23, 2012

Meet My Better Half

Question: For your Animal Purview, how do you determine what counts as a specific enough category? For example, when it comes to fish and some birds, would you require that the player choose, I don't know, Animal (Piranha or Flounder etc,) or Animal (Sparrow or Blackbird, etc.), or would Animal (Fish) and Animal (Smaller Birds) be enough as long as the player didn't go nuts with it?

Your question sparked heated debate between John and myself during a long car ride, which came to verbal fisticuffs and declarations of war. The landscape trembled at our passing; the vehicle went faster in the hopes that we would get out of it sooner. You contributed to the epicness of our day.

But, anyway, the most important rule for Animal is this: is the animal being chosen specific enough to actually be a mythic totem animal? The Animal purview is designed to allow you to choose a totem animal that you identify with or that represents you, so if your chosen Animal specialty isn't doing that or is doing it poorly, you may need to rethink it.

For example, Animal (Piranha) and Animal (Sparrow) both sound awesome, because they show a player choosing a specific creature as their totem; they're choosing something because it has a certain feel to it, whether it's the piranha representing their small size but ferocious might or the sparrow representing their quick thinking and light-wingedness. A player doesn't necessarily have to be that specific, but neither do they want to be too general; Animal (Fish), for example, includes a huge range of other fish who really don't resemble the piranha and its symbolism at all, so I'd rule that it wouldn't work to try to use it as an umbrella there. Animal (Fish) would cover any fish that was just a general sort of fish: flounders, trout, perch, anything that in a myth would easily be reduced to "you know, a fish". Piranhas, on the other hand, are quite specifically about teeth and scariness, not about the normal qualities of fish, so I'd rule that if you want piranhas, you'd need Animal (Piranha). Similarly, someone with Animal (Fish) wouldn't have any power over sharks in our games; sure, science may know that sharks are a kind of very big, very toothy fish, but as a totem they're a distinctly different creature with distinctly different associations, so they're really not the same for purposes of the Animal purview.

Birds are trickier, because while there are umpteen bazillion kinds of birds, they aren't all easily distinguishable and don't all need to be their own animal (unless a player wants them to be, in which case I salute them). It's important to be clear with the player what exactly their purview does and does not cover - for example, I'd sit down with a player taking something like Animal (Small Birds) and point out that while it would cover sparrows and finches and robins and so forth (because for purposes of storytelling, they really aren't particularly functionally different), it would not cover other birds with distinctly different symbolic connotations, like crows or parrots, no matter what size those other birds might be. The important thing is the animal's function as a totem; if it's too general to be a reasonable totem, then you probably need to narrow it down. If it's trying to include several things that are obviously distinct totems on their own, it's trying to do too much.

Some examples from our games:

Eztli has Animal (Bat), which allows her control not only over the bloodthirsty American vampire bats, but also over the gigantic fruit-eating bats of Asia. It doesn't matter that they don't share the same general behavior or come from the same part of the world; anyone who sees either is going to know it's a bat, because bats are universally recognizable and are perfect for a totemic symbol. Bats are bats are bats, whether they have fuzzy orange fur or gigantic echolocation ears.

Jioni and Chicahua both have Animal (Spider). They tend to express it very differently - Jioni usually takes on the aspects of the myriad tiny black spiders of her swampy homeland, while Chicahua is all about the bright colors and rigid fur of tarantulas. They can both use (Spider) as a general Animal without needing to specialize, because spiders are another symbol that anybody can look at and immediately recognize - we all know what spiders are, and what they usually represent, and it doesn't matter if they're big and orange or small and brown. If Chicahua had wanted to specialize into just Animal (Tarantula), he'd definitely have been welcome to; it would be a matter of flavor, but not a requirement.

Saki has Animal (Fox), which she needs to communicate and misbehave with her little fox Kawaii. She needs the specificity of (Fox); we wouldn't allow something more general like (Canine), because different kinds of canines - wolves, dogs, foxes and jackals - all have very different symbols and ideas attached, so they can't be under that same umbrella. Saki can, however, talk to tiny desert fennec foxes just as easily as to the large red northern foxes.

Sowiljr has Animal (Bear); it applies to all bears everywhere, unless they are specifically different creatures (like pandas or koalas). While there are a bunch of different kinds of bears in the world, in mythic terms humanity basically always treats them the same (usually some variant of "oh shit, a bear"), so he's equally as at home with the spectacled bears of South America as he is with the brown bears of northern Europe. There's no need to lock him to a specific species of bear; the bear is a powerful totem that doesn't need to be narrowed that way.

Vala has Animal (Blackbirds), which includes things like ravens, crows, magpies and rooks. Those are birds with very similar traits and similar symbolism, so they fall under the same umbrella. She can't just use Animal (Corvids), however, because that symbolism does not include all members of the scientific family of corvids, however - for example, bluejays are corvids, too, but they are obviously a different bird for totemic purposes, so Vala has nothing to do with them.

Zwazo Fou Fou has some Animal (Lobster), incidentally one of the most entertaining animal totems ever, and it specifically applies only to lobsters. The fact that lobsters are technically arthropods does not mean that he also gets to talk to cockroaches, since those are completely different creatures, symbolically speaking; he also doesn't get to hang out with shrimp or mussels or crabs, which are noticeably different from lobsters. We would not have allowed Animal (Shellfish) or similar, simply because there are too many varieties within that that can represent or symbolize too many things. It wouldn't be a totem, but rather a category, so it's out.

Yoloxochitl is buying Animal (Axolotl). Axolotls are so specific and unique as creatures that she can't get away with just Animal (Salamander) - one of these things is just not like the other.

You're right that it is always a concern that players aren't trying to game the system by choosing the broadest category they can get away with; things like Animal (Hoofed Animals) or Animal (All Birds) are usually obvious attempts by players to get more versatility out of the purview by sacrificing the intent to provide them a totemic animal association. It's not hard to spot those attempts, and it's usually pretty easy to say, "That's a little too general; what did you have in mind more specifically?", or maybe just sit down and explain the mythic concept of a totem animal and why it's cooler to have one that's unique to you than to try to cheat yourself out of it. And, of course, you don't want to have your player with the super-cool Animal (Scarab) feeling gypped because someone else has Animal (Insects) and is running roughshod across the entire bug kingdom.

If you'd like a general rule, we usually recommend keeping Animal at Family (or lower - Genus and Species as necessary) level of scientific classification, which usually gives you a good idea of similar and related animals but doesn't give you too much of a huge umbrella that might include obviously different creatures. It's not a hard-and-fast rule, though; there'll always be exceptions (families that are too specific, or that contain too many things that are clearly different totems), and each player's idea for an Animal specialization is considered on a case by case basis in our games. The last thing we want, after all, is a rule that screws someone's really cool idea, or enables someone else to cheat on a technicality.

Watching people come up with cool Animal totems is one of my favorite things about Scion. Other personal favorite greatest hits from our game have included Gila Monster, Hummingbird, Jellyfish and Wasp.

28 comments:

  1. Oh! Animal! The Purview I both love and hate so much!

    As we've discussed previously and elsewhere, I tend to be much broader than y'all when it comes to picking and allowing Animal associations. I'm totally cool with stuff like Animal (Fish) and Animal (Canine), though I do agree with what your basic, underlying point is.

    Unity of image. The choice of Animal has to support and enhance the Scion's own imagery. So say you've got someone who has Animal (Lepidopterans) and they want to use it on both Moths and Butterflies. That works for me. Now lets say they're a bit more specific. They're a Moon Goddess and the reason they wanted Animal is because of the Luna Moth. When the character activates Animal Feature, Animal Aspect, etc, they're going to display traits related to the Luna Moth. That's their default form. However, they'd still be able to talk to, command and even turn into other Lepidopterans like the Monarch Butterfly. They wouldn't be quite as good at it and it'd be less instinctive. I'd probably impose a dice penalty on the activation roll for their Boons when using the Purview for that type of thing.

    Animal (Mollusks) would be too broad for me, because the imagery is too diverse. I can't see any kind of mythical connection between snails and squids, but I wouldn't have any problem with Animal (Cephalopod) or Animal (Gastropod). Animal (Bivalve) would just be... kinda weird.

    Some more extreme examples of broadness that still has an underlying unity have been Animal (Equine) and Animal (Caniforms). The Equine character is a white knight type of guy. He wants to be able to ride the fanciest four-legged things around. The Caniform dude is connected to large, furry, land-dwelling scary things with sharp teeth and claws. Bears, wolves, wolverines, honey badgers.

    Their imagery is diverse, but consistent. One guy is all about riding pimped out, pretty-looking things with four legs and manes. The other guy is about scary, furry beasties with sharp claws and teeth.

    I think it's too fiddly to make someone buy Animal Form five different times just so he can turn into a zebra, a unicorn, a pegasus, a horse, and a tarpan depending on what kind of fancy animal he wants to be that day. However, I think it is reasonable to make it more difficult for the character to be that flexible. If he wants to turn into a white horse to go with his white knighthood, he's all set. That tarpan, however, is going to be pushing his borders. It'll be harder. If he wants to be a super-fancy zebra, he's not too far off. Trying to be a fancy tapir, though, is right out. It doesn't fit his imagery.

    Scary Animal Guy can be a bear, a wolf, an angry wolverine. If he tries really hard, he can be a dog. But he can't turn into a fox or a coyote. They're more closely related biologically, but they don't fit his imagery. They're tricky, sneaky animals. The opposite of what he is.

    Your Pirana example is a good one too. Someone with that totem could probably also turn themselves into an Alligator Gar, or a Barracuda or a shark. Scary, toothy fishes that eat your feets. They'd have a harder time turning into a catfish, but they might manage. A goldfish? Right out.

    It's an incremental thing, I think. You should have a core image that is your 'default'. The real, central totem that shows up through everything. The basis. But, you can extend beyond that. It's a little hard, but you can do it. You're not quite as good at it as you are the central image, but there's a connection and you can make it work.

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    1. You keep agreeing, but then in your explanation you disagree a lot. Its very strange. We definitely wouldnt allow most of your examples. They go completely in the opposite direction of what we're talking about here.

      The giant argument anne and I got in was about allowing hawks and eagles as the same animal, and I was on the more liberal side of the argument saying we could allow both of them.

      Bear and wolf in the same animal though? Thats something completely different. And lends itself WAY too much towards "i do whatever I want cause i picked the most broad category-ing".

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    2. We agree that Animal needs to be about totemism, but we disagree strongly on what that means in terms of specificity. I'd never allow (Caniforms), because having fur and sharp teeth is not nearly strong enough for a totem for me - a bear is, or a wolf, or a wolverine, but not all three. That's not a totem; it's a general idea, and is best saved for later (or best served by picking up two or three animals, maybe, if a Scion really wants a range of options early on). Similarly, I wouldn't allow Piranha to share space with Barracuda or Shark - sure, they're all fish with teeth, but they're very different in flavor and mythic connotations, so they'd need to be their own things.

      We do allow some extending, as we talked about back in the Animal-for-legendary-creatures post, but we're going to have to agree to disagree on degree, I think.

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    3. Specific animals have such specific meanings in each and every culture that (IMO) to even remotely consider grouping them together in such broad forms is ridiculous.

      I have a book of symbols that I keep around so that when specific things come up in a game, my character has the chance to use the right symbols and the right animals for the right culture. Hell any character with Intellect/Piety/Expression and the intelligence/occult to notice should have a shit fit over any of those being used incorrectly.

      Animal Canine? DUDE! Are you telling me the imagery of a Pitbull and the imagery of a Yellow Lab are even remotely close? They represent such different things
      in the minds of everyday people.

      "I think it's too fiddly to make someone buy Animal Form five different times just so he can turn into a zebra, a unicorn, a pegasus, a horse, and a tarpan depending on what kind of fancy animal he wants to be that day."

      Disagree 100%. I understand increasing the difficulty as an attempt to balance it out, but It makes it WAY too easy. You're characters are becoming GODS. It's bound to be (and again IMO supposed to be) REALLY REALLY hard. So much so that they have to give over part of themselves (xp/time/effort) to becoming what they aspire to.


      This (becoming different animals without buying the purviews for the individual animals) also seems like something you'd use Illusion for instead of Animal.


      I have a book of symbols that I keep around so that when specific things come up in a game, my character has the chance to use the right symbols and the right animals for the right culture. Hell any character with Intellect/Piety/Expression and the intelligence/occult to notice should have a shit fit over any of those being used incorrectly.

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    4. I'd probably just roll with Beast Shape if you want a bunch of different animal forms without the muss of buying up the purview several times. That's pretty common for mythic shapechangers who don't otherwise have much to do with animals.

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    5. Animal may be very powerful, thanks to its ability to add stupid amounts of dice to pretty much anything, but it's very narrow compared to the other Purviews. There are a multitude of ways to express Earth without buying the Purview multiple times and it's free to swap from a God of Desert Sands to a God of Volcanic Glass or a God of Green Crystal.

      Fertility, Water, Sun and Sky are all similarly flexible. Even Fire, to a degree. Only Animal comes with this idea that the ability to change the visual dressing of your Boons (pretty much all you're doing, except for Communication and Command) should have a dementedly heavy XP cost.

      The God of Fish That Bite Your Feets has to buy Animal (Pirana), Animal (Barracuda), Animal (Shark), Animal (Viperfish) and a dozen others to fully represent his concept. The God of Plants just needs one Purview to fill a much broader role. His single purchase covers everything from trees to flowers to fungi.

      So, I am in favor of limiting Animal to those critters that share a consistent visual and conceptual identity, but I am also in favor of defining that identity in a broad manner and allowing Animal Gods to work on the edges of that categorization.

      The actual *power* of the Animal Purview isn't really affected by this because of how its strongest Boons (Aspect, Faunaphagia, Feature) work. Animal Aspect isn't going to be better for someone with Animal (Canine) than it is for someone with Animal (Yellow Labradors); in fact it'll be the exact same level of power.

      Someone like Thoth who has two totally different Animals (Baboon and Ibis) isn't gaining two different sets of powers. He's got one power that he manifests in two different ways. It seems really lame that Thoth has to buy a single Purview twice because ...well, actually I don't even have a good reason as to why he should have to buy it twice. I still constantly argue with myself over Animal even needing to be subdivided as it is.

      Yeah, Sobek is a Crocodile God who hasn't got any reason to turn into a Bear, but then you've got folks like Artemis running around who hasn't got any reason not to turn into *any* Animal. Plus, folks like Dionysus who is ALL ABOUT some ivy and grape vines, but what in the world is he doing commanding cactuses and slime molds?

      I have complex feelings regarding Animal is what I'm saying, and as a result, I almost always work with it very liberally. I do support the idea of ALL Gods (not just Animal Gods) having a consistent theme to their powers, but that theme should be something that exists as part of the character's identity and personality. It doesn't need to be enforced by the way a single Purview works. None of the other Purviews are so harsh.

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    6. Actually, I strongly disagree; the God of Fish that Bite Your Feet doesn't need to buy six different kinds of fish that bite your feet. He only needs to buy one, and then build his Legend from there. The other fish are totally unnecessary to his concept.

      The concept itself, by the way, is a perfectly fine goal for a Scion, but it's not something you find in myth already - gods are in almost all cases associated with a single totem animal not "all fish that can bite your feet". Scions can trailblaze whatever new concepts they want, of course, but there's no reason to invent powers for things they're inventing in-game - if he wants to be god of bitey fish, more power to him, but I see no reason at all that we sould dilute the Animal purview as a result. He doesn't need his Animal purview to do everything ever represented in whatever concept he wants. That's not what Animal is about, at least in my estimation.

      Issues of gods that aren't Scions are trickier - I'm not sure where I'd stand on the issue of whether or not gods have to buy an entire purview twice to have two associated animals. I'd be more inclined to say that you'd only have had to buy one up, and could just buy the Avatar again if you wanted a second - by that point you theoretically probably have Protean Understanding already, so there's no conflict for me there.

      Actually, I'd argue that Artemis doesn't have a reason to turn into any animal, ever. It's not something she ever does. She has no such stories about turning into animals, or commanding animals, or creating animals. The only thing she does with animals is kill them, which is why I have no problem whatsoever with her not having Animal in any dimension. Her animal associations have to do with being goddess of hunting and the wilderness, not being a true goddess of animals.

      It's interesting that you bring up Dionysus - we've discussed the possibility of specializing Fertility before, but always ended up discarding it. It's the opposite pole from Animal - while there are a few gods who are involved with specific plants, the vast majority of them are generalists who are associated with the bounty of the earth and the growth of life, so we ended up feeling that there was no need to make it weird for the many in order to cater to the few. (In reverse, I see no reason to generalize Animal for the few when the many are overwhelmingly specific and totem-based.)

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    7. Please name me a god of X concept of animals. Scary animals, bitey fish, etc. Anything. I cant think of a single one. When it comes to gods, their animals are VERY specific.

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    8. It's all about symbols. Otherwise what the hell would the point of Animal Aspect be? You are becoming that specifically. It's a part of your character. Such broad concepts are ridiculous because you could change your aspect on a whim. No deal Source J.... it just makes no sense

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    9. If by "change your Aspect" you mean suddenly use Animal Aspect on Appearance instead of Charisma.. no. You couldn't. Because you define what Animal Aspect affects when you buy it. So if you have Animal (Pirana) and buy Aspect, it might affect Strength. If you have Animal (Bitey Fish) and buy Aspect, it still is only going to affect Strength. You can't suddenly in the middle of the game say "Hey, Bitey Fish are also really FAST. I'm gunna use Aspect for Dexterity!"

      I admit, the idea of a God being the patron of a "type" of Animal isn't very common. There are some examples, mostly of water thingies. Sedna is the goddess of marine life, not just orcas or seals specifically. I think Mama Cocha is also a general "fish and watery things" goddess. However, there ARE a lot of Gods that have multiple different animals. And they have this issue just as much as someone who wants to be the God of Fish That Bite Your Feet.

      It just seems incredibly punishing to force someone interested in Animal to buy the same purview over and over for little to no mechanical benefit just because they want to be a bear AND a wolf or a baboon AND an ibis. Or six kinds of fish that bite your feet.

      Say you're a Dualistic God and one of your aspects is associated with the night and one with the day, you might want to have a diurnal and a nocturnal animal totem. In order to represent that, you'd need to buy Animal twice. Which seems really, really silly because if you wanted to represent being a dualistic God of both Burning Deserts and Cool Caves, you only need Earth the one time.

      So, no, it isn't a common issue. It is an issue, for me at least. I don't like making people buy the SAME power over and over, for virtually no mechanical benefit. I don't see it being a power issue, because the guy with Animal (Scarab) gets all the same changes to buff himself and summon hordes of bugs and whatnot. The only measurable benefit is in what can be Communicated with and Commanded.

      The rest of the Purview system is set up to provide a huge amount of freedom and creative wiggle room. Animal is the only one that comes to mind where that isn't the case and, in fact, such freedom is severely restricted.

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    10. Usually(if not always) if a god has 2 animals it is because those animals represent VASTLY different things, not because they are close to each other.

      If you are a dualistic god, you're buying both sun and moon, or sun and darkness. Why is it ANY different to buy Bat and hawk to go along with that?

      They do different things, they represent different things, they're different purviews.

      Then you go on to talk about two aspects of earth....but its still earth. You control two types of earth, but its still just controlling earth.

      Animal provides exactly the same amount of "wiggle room" as other purviews. However you have to start by realizing its about one animal. As soon as you do that, you'll see you have the same amount of wiggle room as ANY other purview. If you are god of hawks, you could have two aspects, noble kingly hawks, and dangerous murdering hawks. If you were bears you could have cuddly bears and ferocious bears.

      If you start your logic by seeing animal as being all animals, then yes it seems restrictive, but if you start the logic as Animal:Owl the purview effects owls. Then it isnt restrictive, its the obvious effect of the purview. I wouldnt expect Fire to spray water, so i dont expect Animal:bear to give wolf powers.

      Also...its my players of their own volition arguing with you. Tom specifically has characters with small amounts of 5-6 different animals on one character. But he doesnt seem to mind being "punished" and neither do my other players. They just see it as logical.

      The animal: x purview is NOT the animals purview. That is the main divergence of our conversation. You're arguing for the animals purview, and that doesnt exist in the game(at the moment at least) or in mythology. So we keep missing each other in the communication because we arent talking about the same purview.

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    11. I'm not sure why you argue that there is no benefit from actually buying more than one animal. It seems to be it would be more beneficial. By your logic, a person can have all these different animals of one type, but with no mechanical differences. Whereas, if you were to buy two animals, you could have two different sets of animal aspects, giving you more power. Lets use your mention of "Scary Animal Guy" as an example. Say I bought Animal (Bear) and had strength for an animal aspect. I could also buy Animal (Fox) and use it for animal aspect Dexterity, something that would not really be associated with a bear. The whole Totem animal aside (which is an excellent reason why this doesn't work as well), why would you want to mechanically limit the power?

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  2. What about the whole issue of extinct Animals? Is it ok to pick something long gone but with modern themes(like the Trex)

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    1. I think we did a post about this a couple months ago. Anne might be able to link to it here. Basically we're fine with it, if the player doesnt mind his purview being useless for a long long part of his career.

      But that its probably easier to take animal lizard and later in your career make dinosaurs.

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    2. He's referring to this post a little while ago, about using Animal for Legendary creatures. Basically, we'll totally let you do it if you're willing to work with the fact that your purview doesn't do a whole lot for most of your Hero and early Demigod career.

      Being god of something extinct and crazy can be pretty awesome, especially if you bring it back into the world. Scions are awesome trailblazers like that.

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  3. Johannes EyjolfssonMay 23, 2012 at 5:41 AM

    The problem with extinct animals, in my mind, is that they are, y'know, extinct. Barring time travel, and unless you can specifically create some at higher levels of Animal, or find some survivors in a Titanrealm or something, it's going to be next to useless at lower levels. Of course, if you want to reintroduce them, that might totally be worth it! :)

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    1. Exactly. I don't mind a player going for it, but they are setting themselves up with a few more obstacles than a player who doesn't. (Which, in my opinion, merits being rewarded by the ST with cool story now and then, but they still won't be able to use their boons most of the time until they get to the Animal Feature and up range.)

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    2. Being the crazy type of dude that I am, I'd let someone take Giant Lizards as a Purview and command dinosaurs as well as komodo dragons and monitor lizards. Though I might require something a bit more specific like Carnivorous Giant Lizards or even Non-Flying Carnivorous Giant Lizards. I dunno.

      Is it wrong to have the God of Giant Lizards turn into a brontosaurus, a pterodactyl, a tyranosaur and a komodo dragon?

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    3. If this was a super hero game, probably not? But thats just not something that gods in myth do. Obviously not the dinosaur part, but more importantly the vastly different animals part. Hell, ancient people probably wouldnt even think pterodactyl and apatosauras(there was never a brontosaurus, that is a misclassification) are the same type of animal in any way.

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    4. Yes, so very wrong. Its as thematic as "Animal:Mammal" because they are all covered in fur. I wouldn't even allow Lizards since they have some vast thematic differences.

      Look at Chameleons, Geckos, and Komodo dragons. One is a master of disguise, the other regneration and running up walls, the third a relentless slow death(much like a zombie) and that's just lizards.

      Now you are giving said person the regal predatory power of a Trex, the cunning speed and stealth of a Raptor? The strength and power of a apadosaurus? That's before giving him Flight

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  4. Ah, Animal. My favorite Purview and a potential source for many headaches.

    I am personally of the opinion that while the player should pick a totem and stick with it, but I also believe that Animal Communication and Animal Command (And maybe Ride Animal. MAYBE) should be a larger umbrella. Basically, the first and second dots are more general, the higher dots are more specific.

    Let me use an example near and dear to my heart. Anyone who follows my posts knows wild cat species are on my mind always and forever. Let's take three hypothetical Scions, each picking a different felid for a totem. One picks Lion, one picks Cheetah, one picks Asian Fishing Cat. For their first two dots of the Animal Purview, they're basically identical. It doesn't matter if they're interrogating a housecat who witnessed a murder or trying to keep the starving tiger from eating them, their introductory powers work on cats. I may raise and lower the difficulty on Command rolls depending on their totem, but it'd still be possible to use those boons on related animals...

    Third dot and above, however, becomes punishingly specific. I'd never allow someone with Animal (Cheetah) to use Animal Aspect to up their Strength or Stamina. Cheetahs are fast, but they're fragile. If you want to use Animal Feature to grow a mane to protect your neck, it's lion or nothing. Want to turn into the fishing cat to better catch the Salmon of Knowledge that once bit Finn McCool? Then you'd better pick the right animal.

    In summation: If the Boon focuses on interacting with animals in the setting around you, I'd allow the Scion a more general definition of their totem. If the Boon focuses on the spiritual or transformational aspects, I'd require a specific definition of their totem.

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    1. Mostly agree. We played the first few levels more specific before, so I wouldnt change it for ours. But I think your interpretation is excellent. Im not sure about housecats and big cats being the same, but I can get behind it.

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    2. I think what would really help those with exotic totems to have other options at low level. Communication is nice, but there aren't many Tigers in Georga for example.

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    3. I routinely allow players to purchase a 1 dot Relic that expands the first two levels to Animal (Everything). Though I can easily see just making that part of how they work.

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    4. No....thats like 10 steps in the wrong direction. All animals?

      It really sounds like we're arguing about 2 different purviews at this point. Animal is a totem purview. You want something that is NOT a totem purview, so you can possibly write one. But stop trying to shoehorn a totem purview into what you want. Its not gonna work and you're gonna keep having problems with it.

      Plus all the time you spend shoehorning could be time spent on working on a new purview that you'd ultimately like better.

      Because there arent any(nearly any?) gods of "all animals" we will never see a need or reason to work on a purview for that.

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    5. ... a 1 dot relic to replicate a 10 dot power? Really?

      When I said that the first two dots should allow for more general, I didn't mean to go that far. I wouldn't allow someone with a feline totem to communicate with a falcon or a crocodile. I wouldn't even allow them to communicate with a hyena!

      My main purpose is to, as Jomoru suggested, allow players at lower levels have more options to use their cool exotic totemic-powers even if they're in a different location from their totem.

      Of course, certain totems would still be difficult. Picking a Tasmanian Devil totem means that lower-level Boons aren't gonna be useful unless the game is very provincial, or you have a birthright creature.

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    6. This is what I meant way back at the beginning of the conversation - we're not going to agree on this, because we use Animal as a totemic purview - i.e., you have a totem animal and it's about you and your totem animal - and you're using it as a generalized purview about all animals. Animal in Scion is narrowed to totems specifically because totemism is so vastly widespread and important in world myth; other purviews aren't, because they don't have the same kind of specialization going on. It's not a case of Animal being bizarrely restricted when other purviews aren't; it's a case of Animal being about totem animals specifically, because that's what the overwhelming majority of gods in myth do.

      You can absolutely do whatever you want with your general Animal purview - I know it works for you and your games, and that's great. But we're not being narrow-minded or punishing in using it as a purview that has to do with totem animals; that seems (at least to me) to be the clear intent behind the specialization system that comes out of the box, and furthermore it makes a lot more sense in context of world myth. I can think of maybe two gods that would need to have a bunch of animals; I can think of countless that have only one or two. That's how totems work.

      So we are probably not ever going to start de-limiting Animal to be about a bunch of animals or a phylum of animals or anything like that; we want it to stay specific to a Scion's totem animal, not all animals they wander across.

      (Incidentally, whoa boy would I not allow a relic that made Animal work on everything, even if it were only the first two boons. That's specifically what Protean Understanding does, and again it runs totally counter to the idea of a totemic purview. I'd instead encourage PCs to remember that they can communicate generally with all animals with high enough Intelligence + Animal Ken and/or Charisma + Animal Ken scores, like a mortal horse whisperer or animal behavior therapist can, but obviously much better because they're Scions. Just because they can't have a verbal conversation doesn't mean they might not be able to find creative ways to get their point across.)

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