Question: In your games how does Hades feel about being screwed out of ruling the universe (as the oldest son) by Zeus (the youngest son)? (I read Max's fiction.)
Oh, nobody screwed anybody out of anything. The three brothers agreed to cast lots for their kingdoms, which means that they chose them randomly - Homer doesn't give the exact method, but it was most likely drawing sticks or using dice. There's no mention anywhere of Zeus cheating, nor, in fact, of Hades feeling that he'd been gypped; the heavens, the seas and the underworld were considered three equal kingdoms, which the brothers ruled as equal kings, while the earth and Olympus itself are considered common ground that they all three have a right to. This is why Zeus can't do anything to force Hades to let someone out of the Underworld, for example; he's not king there, plain and simple, and Hades makes the rules, not him. All he can do is ask, and then shrug his shoulders at Demeter when Hades says no. The idea of Hades having gotten the short end of the stick is a peculiarly modern interpretation of the situation; because humanity is afraid of the underworld and doesn't particularly like it or its king, modern readers often assume that Hades would rather have been the lord of the sky or the ocean, but there's actually nothing in myth to suggest he feels that way. He was still regularly sacrificed to and respected (if feared), and the underworld also includes a lot of pleasant real estate like the Elysian Fields (some of the modern idea that Hades must not like being in the underworld also comes from syncretization with the Christian Hell, I think, and the assumption that it must suck for everyone who has to live there). Kingship of the underworld is as valid as kingship of the heavens; he has no reason to be upset or jealous of Zeus in that respect, because they're equals with equivalent spheres of power.
As far as becoming king of the other gods goes, the situation's not clear-cut there, either. Hesiod point-blank says that Zeus becomes the leader of the gods because they unanimously decided he should be, because he was the one who saved all his siblings from Cronus and then led the battle against the Titans; as in the story of the lot-casting, there is no hint anywhere that Hades and Poseidon aren't okay with this (in fact, it's implied that they agree along with everyone else). The fact that Hades is the oldest brother makes it easy for us northern-European-steeped folks to assume he was next in line for the throne and therefore might be upset about not getting it, but it's worth nothing that royal succession in ancient Greece actually didn't always follow in a patrilineal father-to-son line; often brothers, nephews, sons-in-law or completely unrelated dudes could succeed to the throne just as easily as blood sons when the old king died (this varies from kingdom to kingdom - Sparta tends more toward the father-to-son model with rare exceptions, while Athens and Argos have a long history of only following a patrilineal line when they feel like it). It's a bit of a leap to assume that Hades is upset about Zeus' rule when there's no suggestion of such a thing anywhere and he might not have expected to be handed the kingship in the first place anyway.
And, of course, there's always the philosophical switcheroo that Greek myth loves to pull with Zeus and his siblings: Hestia and Hades may have been born first, but Cronus vomited them up last, so in a sense they are the youngest (having been "born" last the second time) and Zeus, who was never devoured, the oldest. Lawyered.
So, anyway, Hades is not actually upset about Zeus' position; he really doesn't have any reason to be pissy about either of his brothers being kings, because they're all equal monarchs in their own right. Now if Zeus starts meddling in the underworld, making demands or trying to lay down laws, there's going to be a problem - it's not Zeus' show down there, and Hades is likely to get very cranky indeed and probably start hostilities that nobody wants to deal with. But for the moment, all's well; the three of them politick against one another like any kings do, but there's no grand scheme to overthrow each other in the offing (or IS there, players?).
Hades' cryptic statements to Max reveal that he has some plans and ambitions for the future - but what those might be is still a mystery. Max is certainly very aware that he's being groomed to take over at least some of the running of the realm, but what that means for Hades himself is just one of the death-god's many secrets.
(Personally, I always figured Hades' marriage to Persephone was probably politically weirder than the division of kingdoms - how weird is it to have your older brother as your son-in-law?)
so is persephone a vapid maiden or is she more conniving that people giver her credit for? and are she and Hades a happy couple (at least as happy as any goddess can be in greek patriarchal culture).
ReplyDeleteI wouldn't necessarily call her vapid or conniving - she didn't try to get Hades to kidnap her, but that doesn't mean she has to be stupid once she's down there. We generally assume that Persephone is pretty comfortable and happy in her role now; being Queen of the Underworld is pretty much the best arranged marriage out there, and Hades is pretty devoted to her, so I doubt she wastes much energy on being mad at him (in fact, if unfortunates like Minthe are any indication, she's at least invested in him enough to be jealous when she thinks his eye might be wandering). She's been queen - a very prestigious position which comes with its perks, I'd imagine - for thousands of years at this point. If she hasn't tried to kill him or find a way to make a run for it by now, she probably isn't going to.
DeleteThere are, of course, various theories about Persephone's marriage - that she ate the pomegranate seeds intentionally to avoid being forced to stay out of the Underworld is a popular one (and I'd note the fun side symbolism of pomegranate seeds being considered a contraceptive in ye olden days, too). Some scholars view the story as representing the necessity of a young woman leaving her mother and marrying a husband, which can lead to them casting Demeter in a controlling and overbearing light as someone who was actively preventing Persephone from pursuing adult happiness (by consistently turning down suitors, etc). On the other hand, the idea of Persephone as a hapless kidnapping victim who is kept prisoner half the year has been popular for a long time, so her exact feelings are best left up to the Storyteller and the flavor of your specific game.
We assume that, even if she was probably pretty justifiably upset when it first happened, she's likely to be pretty comfortable now. Being second only to Hera among goddesses is nothing to sneeze at, nor is a husband who generally avoids the philandering the pantheon's known for, murders dudes who try to kidnap you and owns all the wealth of the world. Of course, there may be the occasional Vengeance-motivated tantrums, but that's what Hades signed up for when he decided not to try flowers and candy first, so he has only himself to blame.
I know you probably hate Hercules: The Legendary Journeys, but there was an episode based on her kidnapping that portrayed her and Hades as already in love and having a secret affair behind her mothers back. An interesting story might be that She was the one who pursued her uncle in secret long before her "kidnapping" in order to both get out from under her mothers thumb and get a good husband. Considering How Demeter choose to abandon the gods for the titans due to her daughter staying in the underworld all year round due to fimbulwinter I would say your Demeter is a bit overbearing and in the underworld is the only time persephone can be an adult. I would not be surprised if it was her choice to stay in the underworld full time using the great winter as an excuse
ReplyDeleteI love that show(its a bad show, but watched it every week as a kid).
Delete"I don't understand, Demeter is a great mom!" - Kettila
DeleteThat kid needs to be confiscated by divine CPS so badly.
DeleteThey just put the whole show on Netflix - I'm wondering how long it is before it unduly makes my Scion campaign sillier.
DeleteThis morning Iolaus turned out to be one of the Three Wise Men.
Yes very silly
So do you agree that in the Underworld is really the only place that Persephone can be an "adult" and her own woman away from her mothers domination?
ReplyDeleteIt may have started out that way, but I would imagine that after thousands of years being the Queen of the Underworld, Persephone is comfortable enough with her authority that she can stand on her own feet no matter where she is.
DeleteYeah, I imagine it's sort of like anyone having an overbearing mother - she might have been able to run your life when you were a teen, but by the time you're in your thirties you pretty much just put up with her to spare her feelings and go on doing what you were doing anyway. I doubt Demeter has an authority to forbid Persephone from doing anything at this point; she might try, but if Persephone says no, there's not a lot she can do about it but go on another winter rampage - which is the kind of thing Titans are known for, sadly.
Deleteso in a way Being upducted by Hades was the best for her. It was probably scary at first being kidnapped and held hostage by her uncle (depending on how you want to tell the story), but she got one of the three great gods of the Dodekatheon as a husband, her own kingdom and equal standing with Hera, and she gets to play with whoever she wants in the upper world for four months out of the year (because she isn't Hades wife then. Adonis anyone). It isn't perfect, but then again life isn't perfect even for the gods.
ReplyDeleteWell, she's still Hades' wife then. She just isn't living with him. She can take her chances on messing around (Adonis especially! though during the summer months, presumably he's hanging out with Aphrodite instead), but I'd personally be pretty paranoid if I were aware that my husband had the power of perfect invisibility. Sure, he's got things to do and he's probably not right behind her... probably.
Deleteso I guess you don't follow Hades write up when it says she isn't his wife during the summer months so he doesn't care who she screws around with?
ReplyDeleteNo, because that is dumb. Marriages in ancient Greece didn't dissolve just because one spouse wasn't home, and there ain't no ancient Greek husband who doesn't care if his wife messes around (especially one as cranky about his wife as Hades). It's the same kind of silliness as suggesting that Hera sleeps around - the book is doing it in an attempt to give them a reason to have Scions, but it runs counter to the myths it's supposedly based on.
Deletehttp://gothambynight.com/scion/hades.htm
DeleteThis doesnt seem to say anything about that....you must be reading a write up that is horrible and wrong.
I was wrong, it is her write up in demigod. I just thought of something. How terrifying it would be to see such a beautiful maiden goddess become the reaper.
ReplyDeleteProbably pretty terrifying - you don't get a title like Iron Queen for nothin'!
DeleteI imagine she could also take on a benevolent sort of seeming for the Reaper, too, though - soft, gentle, comforting death, etc. It'd make a nice contrast with Hades, who is definitely a scary dude.
why did you take away psychopomp?
ReplyDeleteBecause she is so bad at pyschopomp that she cant leave on her own, and instead must rely on hermes to get her to olympus even though sometimes he rapes her during the trip.
Deleteit that in the myths? Is it actually hold you down and fuck you rape or is he forcing sexual favors out of her as payment for transporting her? and if he does why doesn't she tell her husband. Yes Hermes is important, but Hades is one of the three kings.
ReplyDeleteIt's mentioned in myth, yes, though it's ambiguous about how exactly it goes down. I don't imagine either option is better for her, to be quite honest.
DeleteOur PCs have not explored the situation, so what exactly is going on there and who knows about what is still a mystery. I'd point out that kinslaying is a massive Furies-and-Nemesis no-no in Greek myth, though, so Hermes may be banking on the fact that he's Hades' blood nephew.
remember in the myths the olympians are immortal and invincible as are most gods. Only the Aiser are gods specifically said to be able to die. Hades doesn't have to kill Hermes. In fact death is to simple compared to the imaginative punishments the Dodekatheon can come up with as punishment. I'm sure Hades or Zeus can come up with something nasty to do to Hermes to punish him, though the biggest part of his legend is coming out of every scrape smelling like a rose.
ReplyDeleteThey certainly don't kill each other in myth, you're right, but that doesn't work for Scion at all - they're presented as immortal and invincible, but that's in comparison to humans. It's entirely possible to kill other gods in Scion, if sometimes difficult. (Also, lots of other pantheons have gods who die - the Devas, the Shen, the Aztlanti, the Pesedjet, the Tuatha, etc. The Aesir are far from having a monopoly on the idea.)
DeletePfft, death is not even close to a simple punishment - if Hermes dies, Hades gets him, to do whatever he wants with him forever with no possibility of parole or anyone being able to get him out with Hades' express permission. Staying alive is actually pretty imperative for anyone Hades is mad at - you don't want to get stuck down there at his mercy for all eternity.
Death gods who are mad at you are the worst.
(Just got linked here from your latest post on Hera) I agree death gods are some of the worst to have mad at you.
DeleteHowever if I was Hades...Slip Hermes some pomegranate seeds and force the Messenger of the Gods to spend time in the Realm of the Dead where Hades is King....
Considering that pomegranate seeds were used as contraceptives, and the act of swallowing seed(s) is pretty goddamn symbolic, and that Hermes is young enough to function as an eromenos figue for Hades... wow, that is a lot of subtext, is all I'm saying.
DeleteI never thought of or even knew of that symbolism...but I am grinning right now.
DeleteYou can always count on the Greek Gods (in certain things.)
Your right. In fact it seems that the greeks are the exception rather than the norm in being unkilliable. In all the myths I've read I've never head of any of the olympians actually being killed. Even Ixion was condemned to tartarus when he was still alive. Why do you think that the greek gods seem to be completely invincible compared to other pantheons?
ReplyDeleteIn Scion? No, definitely not. I'd imagine the fact that they'd rather torture people than kill them is probably a function of their Vengeance rather than a symptom of them being unkillable. They're exactly as easy (and hard) to kill as any other pantheon. To do otherwise would be seriously unbalancing to the game.
DeleteIt's probably more of a cultural thing; they had humanity in Greece completely and totally convinced that they couldn't die, so that's an assumption they've been rolling on with for thousands of years. A nice rep for a set of gods, even if the other gods know it's mostly just hubris.
Whoa whoa whoa. There is a break in logic here. Tartarus is the underworld. Greek gods/titans/everyone dies. They go to tartarus if they have die and are to be punished for all eternity.
DeleteLogic doesn't really hold in myth. It never says the titans or any god locked in tartarus "dies" Only that they're imprisoned. It happened to the Cyclops and hundred handers at the beginning of time and Zeus released them and they weren't dead. The titans were imprisoned and it is never said they were slain. On the contrary it gives the impression that since the titans and gods are immortal/invincible Tartarus is the only place that can hold them. It is imprisoned never slain.
DeleteBut Tartarus IS in the underworld. In the underworld the denizens are dead people. If you arent dead in the underworld then we can say no pantheons have dead gods unless they actually SAY they die, and even then, maybe they just live in the underworld.
Deleteand in real life?
ReplyDeleteI'll have to leave questions like that up to the Hellenistic reconstructionists. :)
DeleteThe Aesir (the Aisar are Etruscans, btw) and the Tuatha are both sometimes seen as reliant on magical immortality potions to stay young. For the Aesir it's the Golden Apples of Idun and for the Tuatha de, it's the Ale of Goibniu.
DeleteThey're actually the exceptions. Most Pantheons, the Gods are Gods and they're immortal. Yeah, you run into things like soma, amrita, nectar and ambrosia which may or may not MAKE people immortal, but the Gods aren't reliant on continued supplies of them to become and then stay immortal. They're just immortal.
In Scion, all Gods are equally 'immortal' in that they never age or die of natural causes and they're REALLY hard to kill otherwise.
I've also seen the theory advanced that the Aesir are also immortal, but not ageless; they won't die if they don't have Idun's apples, but they will get old and feeble, based on the fact that the story about the apples never suggests their death, just their aging.
DeleteImmortal ≠ unkillable
DeleteYou used 'Lawyered'.
ReplyDeleteAwesome instant win points.
Lawyered!
Delete