Question: Why did you take away Hephaestus' Epic Strength and Stamina?
Bluntly, because we couldn't find any reason he should have them in the first place.
We definitely couldn't get behind giving him Ultimate Stamina, not when he was unable to repair his own broken foot and ended up with a permanent limp from the impact of being thrown off Olympus; folks with Ultimate Stamina are nigh-indestructible juggernauts who can literally rise from the grave, and that description did not suit him at all. (Also, Dionysus totally got him drunk that one time, and while I'm sure Dionysus is really really good at getting people drunk, it's still not a moment that makes him look particularly hardy.)
As for Ultimate Strength, we couldn't find any evidence of him having it; he never does anything you could term a super feat of strength, nor even anything vaguely strength-related. The only incident either of us could come up with was him splitting Zeus' skull on request, but since Zeus was not only helping but Zeus himself is not an Ultimate Stamina kind of a dude, that didn't make enough of a case. Ultimate Strength is the kind of thing gods have because they are lifting mountains or knocking peoples' heads off with one swing or propping the yawning maw of the earth open with their bare hands. Hephaestus is doing none of that; in fact, he doesn't do much physically at all, generally spending all his time skulking in his workshop and specifically avoiding physical pursuits. This isn't particularly odd; after all, he's physically crippled, which in ancient Greek terms translates to not just difficulty getting around but also a general assumption that he doesn't have much physical power.
It seems most likely to me that the book gives him both associated because he's a smith, and smiths sweat and bang their hammers a lot and that makes us think of strength and stamina. I'm sure Hephaestus' Strength and Stamina are serviceable; he probably has seven or eight dots of Epics in each, and there's no reason he'd be a slouch in those areas, even by godly standards. But there's no mythic reason for him to be among the ranks of the strongest and hardiest gods in the universe, so we removed both and went on our merry way.
I think your wrong. In the wheel of time, the character Perrin Ayabara is a smith and he is one of the strongest characters in the books. In most stories smiths are seen as mighty not in a military or athletic sense, but in there creative abilities. They are seen as stronger than most men in their ability to bend iron and work metal and there fortitude in standing at there forge for hours while they work. Yes Heph is unable to heal himself, but I believe that is because he is fatebound to be unable to. As for getting drunk, I think the gods with epic stamina are more than willing to get drunk if they want to, especially with someone as charasmatic as dionysus pouring the wine. I do believe that Heapeastus myths speak to ultimate strength to mold the most difficult of medals and ultimate stamina to work for weeks without food water or sleep to finish a project. Just because he has a deformity and a few instances that discount that doesn't mean they have to be stripped. By the same logic, the strength and stamina should be stripped from Brigid because all they say about her is that she is a smith, it doesn't give any instances of her breaking to world are running for weeks on end.
ReplyDeleteDo you have proof of any of those myths? Or is your proof from a modern book series that happens to have a smith in it?
DeleteWe also strip strength and stamina from brigid. In fact, we strip her legend 12ness
Hero scions can mold metals and work for weeks. That does not in any way show god level world changing ultimates.
DeleteI'm afraid that the Wheel of Time series, while awesome, is in no way a valid mythical source. It's a work of fantasy and set in an entirely different world at that. It can't be used as an example of ancient Greeks thinking Hephaestus was super strong; it's not an example of anything except Robert Jordan's creativity and worldbuilding.
DeleteBut the point is this: gods need to have a reason for what is associated with them. That's what associated means: it's something they do, embody or represent. Hephaestus never does anything that suggests he's particularly stronger than the next guy, not once, ever. He not only never does anything that suggests he's particularly hardy, there are actually several examples of him being pretty fragile. He simply does not have the kind of mind-blowing strength or stamina that someone with the Ultimate does.
And yes, Brigid shouldn't have Strength or Stamina either, for the same reasons. She never does (or is, or whatever) anything to merit them being associated with her.
I'd say that the stories of Hephaestus lend themselves far, far more strongly to Intelligence and either Wits or Manipulation (whatever you prefer for sneakyness). He's always coming up with crazy ways to humiliate or strongarm the other Gods into things, usually by means of elaborate traps and Goldbergian creations.
DeleteWhile, yes, he IS a blacksmith (they do tend to be very strong types of dudes, I know a few) he isn't at his forge constantly working for days on end. For all we know, he could be taking breaks every ten minutes or actually just the overseer who directs a bunch of big, strong dudes to do whatever his genius brain comes up with.
While I don't agree with John and Anne that Brigit should be cut from Legend 12-ness, I do agree with them that she has no business with Epic Strength or Epic Stamina. She may be a goddess of the Forge, but she's god much more going for her that would lend her to Epic Charisma (she's a muse) and Epic Intelligence (she designs things so nice).
We thought that about brigid also...but then we researched. We really like brigid, and we tried hard to keep her(anne has a strong urge to make sure each pantheon has enough ladies), but those stories just dont exist. There isnt a story where she shows world changing intelligence or woos people were her amazing charisma.
DeleteHer big story is that she invents keening. But thats just art, not necessarily charisma.
And then she does not much of anything past that.
She doesn't have many stories left, but isn't that just what she's supposed to BE? The Goddess of poets and inspiration, crafting and smartness, that kind of thing.
DeleteIt just feels *weird* to have her not be one of the main Tuatha, even though a good deal of her position is probably a result of reconstructivism.
Sort of? Shes more associated with flame, arts and crafts. People reconstruct intelligence from crafts and charisma from art maybe, but thats reconstruction. And reconstruction is generally modern people making things up to fit their ideas.
DeleteIm not sure why it feels weird. She is a minor, Minor character amongst the tuatha. Shes basically a princess they trade off and then only mention when her won dies.
Im not sure why it feels weird not to use her. Its like not using one of the countless gods across the pantheons that we have names for but arent legend 12.
Even though there aren't many myths about her, Brigid's lasted a lot longer in humanity's thoughts than some of the other gods. She was turned and still is, honored as a Saint, even. I would say that could be used as a use of Ultimate Charisma. She made the incoming Christians love her so much that they kept her around when the religion of Ireland changed.
DeleteI just, it feels weird not to have her because to me (at least) she just feels like an ionic Tuatha.
iconic* Curse no editing!
DeleteDid you feel that way before reading companion?
DeleteHonestly, if you came up to me back before I started playing Scion, and asked me for an Irish mythological figure, I'd probably have answered with Brigit.
DeleteCould be that I did a paper on Christianization of Pagan Figures for my senior project in high school and used her as one of my examples, though.
Brigit, Cuchulain and Morrigan are probably the most currently well-known Irish figures that you see in popular culture.
Yeah. I was thrilled when the companion had the Irish gods, but if you had asked me before it came out which gods should be on the list, I would have definitely put Brigid on there. Heck, when we lived in England, we had a St. Brigit's cross above our door right next to an iron horseshoe; protected from both fires and bad luck.
DeleteI agree with Source J, Brigid's really well known and maybe not invested in pop culture, she's most definitely still remembered.
maybe out west you have never heard of brigit but over here in england everyone knows about her. its common knowledge around here. people know more about her than just about anybody except maybe arthur and morrigan.
DeleteYes, you know her like you know arthur! Thats a perfect example. He is also, not a god. Arthur is insanely well known, probably greek god level well known across the globe. Not a god. Just because you are popular in modern culture doesnt make you a god.
DeleteAlso, even arthur has stories. If she is very well known in england, what are the stories they tell about her?
And to source/aynie, the reasons your giving for brigit(shes a popular cultural hero/another religion uses her, shes well known(as a saint)) are the same reasons given for the american culture heros pantheon. Everyones of course free to use whoever they want. But she has close to zero stories as a goddess, and so we can give no "proof" for her having anything in the realm of world shaping, baldur level charisma, or Hephaestus level craftsmanship. And without proof we dont give people associateds, and without associateds they cant be considered legend 12 gods.
DeleteI have no doubt that brigid is a legend 9-11 goddess with lots of fire, some charisma and some intelligence. Cuculain and arthur are maybe low-mid level demigods. And thats all ok, because having famous characters at all legend ratings is important.
but arthur is a god on the wiki which is just as credible as you guys. being popular kind of makes you a god i guess because that is what the welsh did right? i mean it just takes a couple of old guys writing stories about you and using the word god.
DeleteYou can certainly do whatever you want to in your games. There is indeed a fan pantheon on the wiki that features the knights of the round table as gods. We don't and never will use it, because they aren't gods; they're heroes, humans (or demi-humans) who did amazing things. The difference between a hero and a god isn't just someone saying "this is a god"; gods are worshiped and have religions based on or including them. Gods are part of the beliefs and spirituality of a culture. Zeus isn't just a dude that someone called a god once so he got promoted to the title; he's a figure that people genuinely believed was a divine power in the universe. That's a very big difference between heroes and gods, and it's okay for there to be a difference. If everybody was a Legend 12 god just from having a few stories written about them, there'd be no such thing as Legend 4-11.
DeleteYou can use whatever material from the wiki you like, but we don't use anything that isn't supported by world myth. We run Arthur and his knights as ancient legendary figures and probably Scions, but not as gods, because they are not and never were gods. And we run Brigid as not being Legend 12, because apart from a few unilluminating lines in the Irish sagas, she is never said to do or be anything worthy of those levels of ultimate power. She's still definitely around as a goddess - but not a Legend 12 one on par with people like Horus or Apollo or Thor, beings whose stories are told over and over again.
Danger there Killerz.... Anne can site every source from every scholar she's e-mailed about this stuff from across the globe, every published book on the topics, every variation there of...
DeleteWikipedia has nothing on John and Anne as Wikipedia is a public page that can be edited by anyone...
Are you also saying people Worship the Arthurian Legend as a deity? Can you find proof of that? Also can you link to the wiki that sites Arthur as a god?
John and Anne have been taking intensive classes on mythology for two years... i'd not throw out statements like that too lightly without knowing their background
Ha ha ha, I like that you warn people of danger, like I might be a dangerous badger that might come at them. With books and JSTOR citations.
DeleteI think he means the Arthurian pantheon on the Scion wiki that White Wolf maintains, which is indeed there. Of course, there are also at least three pantheons on the same page based on animes, so I generally tend to stay out of the fan pantheons over there apart from an occasional drop-in to check out any new developments.
I'm with you, though; to be a Legend 12 god, you need both religion and stories. If you don't have the first, you're not a god; if you don't have the second, you're not a very important god.
Naw, yer more like... a MINK or something. I remember reading something in high school that minks are one of the creatures most likely to attack humans in the wild.
DeleteThe WW Scion Wiki is sadly under-active and poorly organized. Plus, there's no quality control. So there's.. just some really weird stuff over there. Like Pokemon Gods and a Chair Purview.
That brings up a decent question. What are your rules on players picking a parent who is not Legend 12? For example, could your players still pick Brigid?
DeleteFearsome AND fashionable!
DeletePlayers are always welcome to choose a parent who isn't Legend 12, but gods of lower Legend have few associated powers to pass on, so most don't. In Brigid's case, I'd probably say she gives Charisma, and maybe Fire; beyond that, they'd be buying everything else at the normal non-associated cost. The option's always there, but there's such a wide spread of gods available in the game already that so far we haven't had any players go for it.
Seriously, a Chair Purview?! What does that do exactly?
DeleteHohoho....killerz...you get out forever sir ;)
DeleteI am pretty sure Hephaestus got those epics because of his portrayal in the Adventures of Baron Munchausen(where he explicitly does the coal into diamond thing)
ReplyDeleteMmm.. that'd really just be an Earth thing, I think. At least in Scion terms. But, I can see where he'd pick up Strength and Stamina via modern associations. In mythological terms, though, he's not particularly strong or tough for a God.
DeleteWe (the laborers of the world) have a saying. "Work Smarter, not Harder."
ReplyDeleteThat's why when I build (i'm a carpenter), I use power tools. Because the FUCK if i'm going to spend all day braising metal or Hand planing lumber. That's just stupid and a waste of time and resources.
If Hephaestus has brain 1 in that melon on his shoulders, he's going to be coming up with better techniques, tools, and probably hiring some idiot to do the work for him. But that's so much more about Dexterity, Wits, and Intelligence.
You know why we have forges? Because working with solid iron and steel is very VERY difficult. So do the smart thing and heat it up! Make it softer and easier to work with! Recently, I saw a ring made purely of DIAMOND. Hardness Scale Rating 10! The most durable material on the planet.
Check it out Here:
http://guyism.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/The-worlds-first-diamond-ring.png
The world's FIRST diamond ring. We've had Diamonds around forever. Why is it just now in the 21st century we have a solid diamond ring?
Lasers.
Smart people finally came up with way to cut and shape Diamond into a ring. It's beautifully crafted but no amount of Strength was going to shape it. If someone tried it'd just shatter.
Also, none of that means that Hephy doesn't have Epic Stamina or Epic Strength! He could have 9 epics in both for all we know. But he's just not the Embodiment of those things.
Lasers make everything better.
Delete