Question: My players, after reaching Legend 12, are setting out to make a completely brand-new pantheon for themselves, Hopefully complete with their own PSP and uniqe overworld realm. While I marvel at the audacity and magnitude of that idea, I'm having a hard time conceiving an epic way to achieve that. Any thoughts?
We have not yet had any PCs try to set up their own pantheons in-game, so we don't have a firm set of rules for it. But we have had several inquire as to what they'd have to do, so we have some suggestions and guidelines already percolating. And believe me, epic is the name of the game.
1) Real Estate. The new pantheon's going to need an Overworld and Underworld of its own, as well as an Axis Mundi to connect the two, and getting them will require quite the heroic undertaking. Overworlds could be bargained for, borrowed or granted by other pantheons who have some extra space they don't mind losing; PCs might have to negotiate, make deals and do some smooth talking to convince them to cooperate. If that doesn't work, they might have to actually go take back some territory from one of the Titanrealms, carving out their domain the way the ancient gods did; what exactly that will entail is sure to be daunting and difficult, but it'll probably vary depending on which Titan they decide to take on. Then there's the Underworld; the new pantheon'll definitely need one of those, too, but (as the Tuatha can tell you), it's not as easy as walking right down there and planting a flag somewhere. I'd suggest having them repurpose part of broken Tartarus, or else try to covertly (or overtly!) take over some of another pantheon's death-territory for their own use, possibly making new enemies in the process. They'll also probably need a death-god to bust out The Reaper to set up the new Underworld as unique to them and to stick around and run it thereafter; if one of the PCs can do this, great, but if not they may need to go recruiting. As for the Axis Mundi, I'd imagine that you would need someone with The Way to create a permanent link like that; have them search out an appropriate symbol they want to use, and then find a psychopomp god and convince them to help (if one of them doesn't have The Way on their own, that is).
I'd note that I'd probably allow a PC could also use an appropriate Sanctum for an Overworld or Underworld, assuming they were willing to open it up to all members of the pantheon and lose the ultimate sovereign control they have over it. But keep in mind that not all PCs will want to give up their private heavens, and that some may not be large enough for a full Overworld anyway, so they may need to go about it the hard way after all.
2) PSP. A PSP is a tricky thing to write and work on, so you'll want to be involved with your players pretty much every step of the way to make sure it's something you're comfortable using in game and that it makes sense all the way through. I'd suggest that it needs to be based on something the gods of this new pantheon have in common; it shouldn't be a random grab-bag of new powers they think is cool, but rather a synthesis of the most important concepts and ideas behind them and their new pantheon. Have them brainstorm what they think are the major themes of their pantheon, and work on building a purview from there. I'd also encourage them trying to combine aspects of their home pantheons into something new and unique that still retains a flavor of where they came from, if they're so inclined. They'll also need a god with the Wyrd, I'd suggest, to actually help them create it as a true magical power, and I'd go nuts building the coolest ritual you can think of to bind them all together as part of that new power.
3) Virtues. Pantheons share Virtues; it's one of the most important things that bind them together and solidify their common goals and values. Your new pantheon is going to be made up of gods who were once Scions of different cultures, so you're likely to have some variety; again, I'd suggest talking to the players to determine what they think the new pantheon's core values should be, and then choosing a Virtue setup that fits those the best. I'd say that every member of the new pantheon needs to have at least two of those Virtues; if they don't, they may need to go on epic quests to align themselves with the new ideals they intend to represent. One cool way of doing that is by having them go to other pantheons who do have those Virtues and performing badass, epic quests, tasks or rituals for them to learn and embody those new Virtues. You might again want to have a god with the Wyrd formally make the change for whatever gods need it, as well.
4) Roster. While your band of PCs is a great core kernel of a pantheon, odds are they don't have everything they need to get things up and running. In no particular order, I'd recommend that a fledgling pantheon needs at least the following:
A leader or king god (or some type of ruling council - your PCs might very well want the first democratic pantheon ever, but make sure they have a plan for its politics going in)
A Death god
A Psychopomp
A Thunder god
A Fertility god
A Sun god
A Health god
And at least one or two gods with Magic, Mystery or Prophecy
Obviously, a god might fulfill more than one of these roles - Apollo's both a Health and a Sun god, Hermes is both a Magic and a Psychopomp god, etc. - but they form the core representations that every pantheon has (and if your players have other bonus Avatars besides those, so much the better!). It's likely that your PCs will need to recruit to get a full, healthy roster; they might ask other up-and-coming Scions to join them, try to convert minions of the Titans to godhood, encourage their own children to join or even try to poach members of their own pantheons away to join the new guard. I'd keep in mind that not every god on that list has to be Legend 12; a Legend 10 psychopomp is perfectly capable of fulfilling his function, for example, so as long as you have the gods, it doesn't matter if they've all attained ultimate power yet.
5) Diplomacy. Declaring themselves a new political power is a tricky thing; your PCs will have to deal with the other pantheons' reactions and it's inevitable that somebody's going to get upset or try to use them for their own ends. Their divine parents or native pantheons may be upset or insulted that they want to secede; other pantheons may view them as foolish upstarts or even as a threat, trying to declare themselves equal to the established gods. Diplomatic visits (complete with promising gifts or making treaties) to the other pantheons are probably going to be a necessity, and will really give the more socially-oriented PCs a time to shine in the pantheon-building process.
6) The Big Day. Finally, you'll need them to do something as a team that actually creates them as a new pantheon; I would suggest a magic ritual with no fewer than three gods ready to pop the Wyrd (and possibly a Justice god ready to bring out the Arbiter to officially invest them with their own authority). The ritual should include anyone they want in the pantheon proper, anything that's very important to its themes or values, and as much coolness as you can design in a single scene. Difficult tasks or things that must be done with perfect precision as part of the ritual will give them something to do and help allow them to contribute to whether or not their dream comes true. This is a big deal and has required a lot of work to get to - reward the shit out of these characters. (The scene itself should be the major reward, but I'd probably also give them back all their Legend/Willpower/channels/deeds if the ritual is completed, to illustrate that they've almost become new beings.)
7) Profit. If any of you fine folks have further suggestions for the questioner above, toss them out in the comments - it's not an area with set rules, so creativity and epic scale are the watchwords!
so you don't hold with the idea that gods can will things into existence out of the aether?
ReplyDeleteThey can if they have the boon that does that....? Ive never heard of gods willing things out of the aether.
DeleteI'm not sure what you mean - do you mean, just decide there'll be an Overworld and there will be? Because no, I wouldn't be down with that for a few reasons. One is that it seems counter-intuitive - what do they have all these badass super world-changing powers for if they don't need them because they can just "will things into existence" without them? Isn't doing that kind of off-the-charts awesomeness exactly what purview Avatars are for? Why aren't gods doing it all the time, then? Why doesn't every god have their own private Overworld and Underworld and PSP?
DeleteThe other reason is because that's boring. I'd almost always rather make something this huge and world-spanning be something the PCs get because they go on epic, heroic quests and do epic heroic things, not just because they spent Willpower. That's pretty lame (or at least it seems so to me).
Gods can will things into existence if they have the powers for it - that's specifically what powers like Create Water or Unlikely Pattern or Frozen Panoply, etc. do - but if they want to make huge sweeping changes to the universe, they're going to have to work a little harder than that.
the basic rules of creating there sanctums only on a larger scale, taking the combined effort and will of multiple gods to carve an entire world out of the pure energy of the overworld. The book states the gods have the power to do that with effort. It is in the creation story at the beginning of the god book that they created and are able to create worlds out of the pure energy through will with no need for boons or elements, and that the combined conciousness of human kind is able to also do this to a lesser extant. the only problem now is those empty spaces are taken up by titan realms so young gods do have to take back that space from the titans.
DeleteActually it really isn't covered how the Gods went about doing that. Did they use Magic? Probably. Did they use The Wyrd? Also probably. Maybe The Void, maybe The Shaper and more.
DeleteWhile Gods in Scion do have limitless cosmic power, that's modelled by their Boons and Spells and Knacks. Being Legend 12 doesn't give you automatic access to more abilities that are secret from everyone else. It gives you access to Ultimates and Avatars.
Personally, I suspect the Shaper, the Wyrd and the Maker (Forge's Avatar) would be used together, possibly along with some kind of Avatar represeting Order. Maybe the Arbiter. Even the Void might be handy to forge things out of Chaos.
Wait....quoting the fiction is even worse then quoting the book!
DeleteI really feel like we had this talk a bit ago about how the fiction cant be rules based because it contradicts the rules so often.
Deleteyour making things needlessly complicated and frustrating in the name of entertainment. There is nothing wrong with being able to hand wave certain things like forging your own realm out of will and imagination. The tough part should be keeping it from your angry/jealous parents and the titans, not in creating it in the first place
DeleteNot at all. Storytellers should never be afraid to handwave something away if it isn't adding to gameplay or it's making things too complicated to be fun, but this is the exact opposite of that. This is adding fun stuff to the game and letting the PCs find their own ways to accomplish it. In a game about telling epic stories and achieving epic feats, why on earth would you want a rule that removes them? "Oh, I decided on a whim to create something on par with Olympus so I waved my hand" is not a story; it's a lame excuse for having a bunch of extra stuff you didn't get through playing the game. "I went on these epic quests, did these epic things and ended up with this awesome place on par with Olympus that is all mine!" is a story, and a damned cool one at that.
DeleteI also still can't quite fathom what you'd use Purview Avatars for if you could just do this stuff on your own. They'd become completely redundant. And there's definitely no rule in Scion as it comes that suggests that gods should be able to freaking create worlds by just waving their little hands - there is a massive difference between what works as a throwaway mention in fiction and what works in an actual game world.
You're right, though - defending and administering your new pantheon and Overworld/Underworld is definitely an ongoing journey on its own. The story possibilities are endless!
DeleteWhy would anyone be jealous if all of them could just wave their hands and create infinite amounts of space and resources? There's no reason.
DeleteGoing through the process of stealing, creating or discovering a new Heaven specifically for your Pantheon should be an epic, exciting, awesome and fun quest. It shouldn't just be "eh, so, Overworld? Done." because of hand-waving. That's removing a huge number of great plotlines from a story.
Nothing worth doing is easy, ya know?
Its supply and demand. If there is infinite supply, then there is no demand. All the land becomes worthless. Olympus itself becomes worthless. And we arent making things needlessy complicated we're making them reasonably complicated.
DeleteSeriously, if gods can make anything out of nothing, why do purviews exist?
Another potential source of Overworlds could be the ones abandoned by destroyed or disappeared Pantheons. They're mentioned in the God book. They're not being used, after all. Even some of the existing Pantheons have extras, like Vanaheimr.
ReplyDeletePresumably, those same Pantheons also left abandoned Underworlds as well, though they may have been absorbed by either Titans (like the DEATH TITAN!) or used to build Tartarus or grabbed by greedy Death Gods from still-extant Pantheons.
I know if i was a death god I'd scoop any extra underworlds up asap. I assume that is how odin has his extras.
DeleteThat's a great point - there may be unused Overworlds lying around. Or if someone has picked them up (as I assume they probably would, because why wouldn't you?), the PCs might be able to make a good case that it isn't their rightful property and be able to get it back away from them more easily than some of their more native territory. In fact, if one of the PCs involved could find a way to claim they were the rightful owner through their dear departed great-great aunt twice removed, so much the better!
DeleteAlso, lesser pantheons might still be around but without much power, meaning that PCs could more easily conquer them (take that, Albanian scum!) or even work with them, possibly to both their mutual benefit (I mean, hey, the Basque gods really only stand to gain from someone making them and their territories famous again). Seeking out disenfranchised or unpopular pantheons is another really great tool for those determined to build their own pantheons; if nothing else, they might at least get some advice and some thoughts on what not to do to avoid ending up like them.
Some of the Underworlds/Overworlds might have defenses left behind by their previous owners that have kept Titanspawn and Gods out. That'd make for one hell of an awesome story for the PC's to conquer the last defenders of some long-dead Pantheon and take their stuff.
DeleteWhile a shared PSP and set of Virtues are a good start, what really defines a Pantheon is the culture that they represent. What kind of culture will a new Pantheon embody and guide? What are the essentials of this culture?
ReplyDeleteThat's where you'll REALLY get your God-Roster from. There are common archetypes, but each will be molded to the society that the Pantheon oversees.
When you're coming up with a new Pantheon, you're basically creating a whole new society. Work on that aspect and the rest will flow from it naturally.
I'm honestly a little surprised that a Love God/Goddess didn't make your list of what every pantheon should have. It isn't easily mechanically quantified, but, then, neither is Pantheon leadership.
ReplyDeleteIt's not the mechanics so much as it's the flavor; what a pantheon needs to legitimately be part of the ruling class of the worlds. Things like Fertility and Death are universals that no pantheon can avoid having, because humanity always needs a god in charge of death and a god in charge of supporting life on earth, but you can technically get by ruling your territories just fine without somebody in charge of the squishier feelings of the mortals that inhabit them. Some pantheons do just that; there's no major Shen associated with love, for example, nor is that a major role for any of the Tuatha or Yazata. The Ishtar-Aphrodite-Venus-Hathor-Astarte conglomeration around the Mediterranean is certainly a strong contender for a great addition to a roster of gods, but it doesn't strike me as strictly necessary for a functioning pantheon.
DeleteIt's also probably pretty unlikely that you'll get a roster together and not have somebody who ends up filling that role, though. It's usually the Fertility or Sun god, but anybody with advanced enough Charisma might find themselves prayed to for matters of the heart.
I just tried to think of who would fill a love-god role for our PCs trying to build a pantheon, and realized they don't have one. With the exception of Sowiljr, who is god of monogamy but not really love in general, we actually don't have a PC at god-level that went for the love archetype. Huh.
Please ignore my boneheaded assertion that the Tuatha don't have a love-god... apparently I need to go back to bed until I stop randomly forgetting the existence of figures like Aengus. Sheesh. I stick by the other two, though.
DeleteYou certainly have a lot more experience with mythology than I do, so I apologize for any ignorance on my part. But, at least as it currently stands, none of the Tuatha are currently listed as having the Sky Purview associated. I don't think there are any Shen of love that would qualify as Legend 12, but even a quick google search does turn up a Chinese love god, and like you said above-- the role doesn't always need to be filled by a Legend 12 god.
DeleteEven when we consider the Yazata, they don't seem to have a Death god in the sense that the other pantheons do. Vayu has power over death, but unlike the other major Death gods, he doesn't really seem to rule the Yazata Underworld at all from the supplement. At best, he simply has more visitor's rights than the other Yazata seem to have.
I do think any pantheon worth their salt needs a death god more than a love god, but even then, wouldn't it be possible for a fledgling pantheon to have a Death god more like Vayu and less like the other big shot Death gods?
Oh, no, you're not wrong. Many pantheons do different things with gods; the list above is our guideline because it seems like the most "necessary" components, but it's not unchangeable, after all. I wouldn't consider a love god a necessity, but if you do, you should totally go for it!
DeleteDeath-gods are not necessarily underworld rulers, you're right; Vayu is a death-god because he's in charge of taking the last breath of life from a dying person, which certainly qualifies him to be a capital D Death God but is not at all the same thing as ruling the underworld. (Nobody actually formally rules the Yazata underworld; it pretty much runs itself once you get past the judging at the bridge.) It's an A = B but B =/= A situation; underworld rulers are always death-gods, but not all death-gods are underworld rulers. Some have alternative afterlives, like Freya/Odin/Tlaloc/Huitzilopochtli/Indra; others are simply so strongly associated with death that they must be considered gods of it despite not owning underworld real estate, like Shiva/Vayu/Hecate/Nephthys/Anubis/the Morrigan. It's easy to think of all death-gods as being the underworld rulers - dudes like Hades and Osiris are big deals - but there's definitely no rule that says they have to be underworld rulers.
But a pantheon needs to have an underworld, even if they elect to have nobody in charge of it on a permanent basis, and that means they'll need someone with The Reaper to at least help set it up ahead of time (or convert it to their use, if it's someone else's or otherwise not functioning properly). I definitely think a pantheon's death god could certainly have as much or little to do with running the place afterward as they wanted to (though many would probably want to administer/lord over it, considering that they put all that work into it).
Why does a pantheon need to have an underworld? If the cosmology is such that mortal souls are reincarnated, wander the earth as ghosts, or join the gods in their Overworld, couldn't the pantheon do without an underworld?
DeleteHmm, you're right, that did look awfully final of me, didn't it? It's not so much that you have to have an underworld, but you must have an afterlife; there must be something your pantheon does to ensure that mortal souls are appropriately taken care of in some way after they die. It's one of the most basic and major functions of gods to ensure that the living get to stay separate from the dead; you can be creative about how you do it, but you must do it nonetheless. A death god is mandatory, but you don't have to chain yourself to an underworld if your new pantheon has a good reason to do it some other way.
DeleteThings to keep in mind, however: most reincarnation pantheons still have some form of underworld where the souls in question are judged, rehabilitated or transformed, so it's likely you'll need something like that if you want to pursue that idea. Ancient pantheons almost never actually bring mortals (dead or otherwise) to the Overworld; you can totally set something like that up if you want, but it raises odd cosmological questions (is it really that your mortals live in the Overworld, or is it that your gods live in what is essentially the Underworld, like the Nemetondevos?) and will severely wig out anyone with Harmony, as separation of mortals from divinity is one of the major things that tends to set that Virtue off. Finally, you're probably not going to be able to let your whole mortal populace run around as ghosts; it'd be monstrously dangerous for the living who could die from angry poltergeist problems at any moment, and other pantheons, particularly those with Order, Harmony or Conviction, won't stand for it. It's a necessary universal function for the dead to be kept away from the living - it's the basis of every single culture's ideas of the afterlife, pretty much - and new vanguard of gods or not, you won't be able to just let them run around causing havoc. You've got to do something with most of them, even if you allow some to be ghosts.