Question: Have you ever thought that you need to make another Virtue for the system and add it to your Virtues, or do you think that Scion got it right the first time with what they have as the Virtues?
Honestly, we've considered it, but we eventually had to admit that we couldn't come up with any other Virtues that we thought were as strong and resonant as the ones in play. As core tenets and values of the religions and cultures that Scion's pantheons represent, the Virtues are pretty great.
We've occasionally toyed with other things that could be considered Virtues - "Compassion", for example - but we've never found any strong enough to run with. Something like Compassion, while certainly a virtue in the general sense of the word, isn't really a cultural or religious motivator the way things like Order or Courage are; what pantheons would have it, and what would it replace that they have now? It's also hard to come up with new Virtues that aren't already being covered by the ones in play, because the Virtues that exist now are multi-faceted and can cover a lot of ground; Endurance, for example, can mean not only bodily hardiness but also spiritual fortitude and dedication to the long haul. Would we have to start restricting what Virtues mean in order to introduce more individual ones, and if so, would the game really be being served better by having many narrow Virtues instead of fewer broad ones?
We've never had good answers to those questions, so we've never tried to introduce a new Virtue. If we saw one that totally bowled us over with its obvious appropriateness, we'd certainly be open to it, but so far we just haven't come across one.
Actually, it's the Dark Virtues that we've been more interested in messing around with; negative Virtues - Vices, really, as the World of Darkness accurately uses them - are a lot more stymied with only four options, and we think there might be more ground to cover there. The dark mirrors of the normal Scion Virtues might also be good Dark Virtues - if the good guys can have Endurance, some bad guys might have Sloth, and if the good guys can rock their Harmony, the bad guys might be just as invested in Discord. But that's opening up the question of what exactly Dark Virtues are, and even more makes the question of who has them even more pronounced. Some antagonists in ancient myth clearly have normal Virtues, and some of the forces on the side of the gods just as clearly have Dark Virtues. And if that's the case, is it possible that Scions should have both Virtues and Vices, and that their enemies should, too?
We're not sure if the game needs to make that leap - it'd be more complex, although we think it might also be very interesting, and Virtues often manage to be enough of a basket of snakes that they might make adding Vices totally redundant. It's one of those things we're always kind of theorizing about, but that we may or may not ever end up making actual changes to.
Mythological heroes just have way too many feelings.
Me and Jacob once talked about something similar, at least the part where some titans clearly have normal virtues. We went through discussing each of the titans you have up, deciding they each likely have a normal virtue swapping out one of the dark virtues they have little connection to. After that the dark virtues seemed to fit for the most part.
ReplyDeleteThe idea was to give each of the Titan Avatars one of the virtues of their "home" Pantheon, to reflect their origins, and then three Dark Virtues. For example, Apep has Conviction, Malice, Rapacity, and Zealotry. He isn't Ambitious - he's just a giant snake that wants to swallow the Sun. But damn if he won't -keep- trying to swallow the Sun, even if he's been getting beaten back by Horus and Set every night for the past 5000 years. Glenn and I made a game out of picking which Virtue would work, and which would be replaced. It was fun.
DeleteIf you're willing to stretch definitions a bit, then the four Dark Virtues already kind of oppose the Twelve Divine Virtues in groups of three as is.
ReplyDeleteAmbition (looking out for your own self above all others) is opposed by Courage (willingness to put yourself in danger), Duty (putting your responsibilities ahead of yourself) and Loyalty (putting your friends ahead of yourself).
Malice (being a dick for the hell of it) is opposed by Order (dedication to upholding the tenets of law), Valor (dedication to behaving with Honour) and Vengeance (being a dick for a reason).
Rapacity (tendency to rape and pillage) is opposed by Expression (your appreciation for and dedication to protecting Art), Harmony (your dedication to maintaining the balance of Nature) and Intellect (your appreciation for and dedication to protecting Knowledge).
Zealotry (the will of the Titans be done) is opposed by Conviction (thy will be done), Endurance (how much you're willing to suffer for your cause) and Piety (the will of your pantheon be done).
Zealotry's a wierd case: it's essentially the same thing as the three virtues it opposes, but with respect to the Titans.
I actually kind of love Zealotry because of that, because it makes perfect sense. Order/Conviction put you on the side of the gods, Zealotry puts you on the side of the Titans. Like many things about the fight between the two sides, the only real distinction is which army you're standing with.
DeleteI think some of your equivalencies are a stretching it a little, but it's a neat concept!
I think there should be more varieties of Virtue Extremities.
ReplyDeleteFor example, let's take Intellect. It's the virtue that systematically says you must uphold knowledge for knowledge's sake, that you must learn, teach, and act prudently. The current Intellect Extremity works fine in some purposes. You're so deep in your own head that you can't actually act. However, I feel that there are other possibilities. You could be so dedicated to learning something that you will do anything, perform atrocities, bargain with Titans, tear the tags off of mattresses, etc, in order to find the answers you seek.
There are other possibilities, but I'm tired and I don't want to lose this before I post it
We've been wanting to fix Intellect Extremity for a while - it's sort of an odd man out. All the other Virtues make you do things to redress your failure to live out your Virtue, but Intellect just takes you out of the scene. We've been thinking for a while that it needs to be rewritten more as you suggest, making the Scion go spread knowledge or brave insane dangers to learn, to bring it up to par with the others.
DeleteHonestly Dark virtues never made sense to me. I've always felt they should be much less "anti virtues" and more "I'm a sapient thunderstorm" they destroy because it is their nature not because of some drive to personal excellence.
ReplyDeleteWell, some of them do, but then again some of them obviously do have drives toward excellence. I'll eat a pie full of blackbirds if Cronus and Titans like him don't have Ambition, for example. Some Titans are just personified ideas and maybe aren't very firm, but others have very distinct personalities and goals.
DeleteI think the intent behind the original Dark Virtues was probably actually what you're describing; their values being "hunger", "cruelty", "power" and "domination" are basically just big old monster motivations, the kind any vaguely sentient nasty might have. The use of the word "virtue" is probably to illustrate to players that they work in a similar way as their own Virtues, not because they're suggesting some kind of mindframe of achieving excellence on the part of all the Titans.
I think there are certainly some titanspawn out there, and certainly the titanrealms themselves, that destroy/propogate themselves upon the World because it's simply in their nature to do so.
DeleteHowever, I think this fails to capture a lot of the more complex antagonists in the Scion universe. What about a mortal who has been corrupted by a titan avatar to do his/her bidding? They don't really fall into the "sapient thunderstorm" category themselves. Neither do the titan avatars themselves, when you look at myth. Especially since so many of them are considered to be gods themselves in our real world myths. There's a lot of complexity in the characters of the titan avatars, and I think it would be a disservice to reduce them to mindless forces of nature.
That's what the titanrealms are for. I want my titan avatars (and most of my titanspawn antagonists) to be some mix of scheming, atrocious, insatiable, fanatical bastards!
Aha - Anne beat me to the punch!
DeleteI really wish there was an edit button so I didn't have to spam...
DeleteEDIT: I actually like the suggestion of some avatars (and even certain titanspawn) occasionally having one of the divine virtues, as it suits them. I also enjoy my antagonists to feel like more than a cliche bad guy, most of the time, except when it's appropriate that they do :)
All in all, I think the current virtue/dark virtue system handles this fine as long as the ST is good about managing them in his or her head for both the players and the NPCs/antagonists.
Look at Apep. He doesn't want to eat the sun because he's cruel. He doesn't want to hurt people. He just doesn't CARE, he just wants to eat the sun. I just feel titans work better with profoundly alien virtues over very primal needs vs dark aspects.
DeleteCruelty seems especially off that's just so very human so very fatebound.
I think you're generalizing the Titans too much. They aren't all the same, and some have distinctly human motivations of their own, which make plenty of sense in the Virtue system, Dark or otherwise. Sure, Apep is a Titan and he is mostly just a nasty force of nature, but Cronus is also a Titan and he has drives and goals - preventing his son from overthrowing him, retaining his rule over the world - that are more "human". We shouldn't pretend Cronus is just a mindless force of nature any more than we should invent human goals for Apep; we need to rather accept that Titans, like Gods, come in many different forms and have many different personalities.
DeleteBy the way, I gotta say that Apep at least has Malice. The epic taunting battles he has with Set while they fight are pretty good evidence of a creature who is out to humiliate and hurt his opponent, not just an animal trying to get around an obstacle. He also sasses Ra and threatens him if he doesn't get what he says is his "due", which again betrays the fact that Apep is more than just an animal intelligence chasing a shiny toy. He's still totally evil and unflinchingly Titanic, but he's got more going on than you're making him out to have.
Speaking of virtues, some people are talking bad about your virtue house rules over on http://www.tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?t=54166&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=100
ReplyDeleteWeird... sounds like they don't really understand what our house rules are saying. Which I guess isn't very surprising, since the posters seem to be people who are not very familiar with the game.
DeleteI'd take the Gaming Den's feelings with a grain of salt. It's the primary posting site for Frank & K's collection of house rules for D&D 3.5. And one of the complaints he has is that he doesn't like the way the economy works in D&D's rules as intended; which should speak for itself, really.
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