Question: Do you think that non-human Scions are viable characters? As PCs or as NPCs?
We think it depends on the needs of your game. It's a neat concept, but we haven't ever met a player who actually did much with it that he wouldn't have been doing with a human Scion anyway.
First of all, let's get our usual disagreement out of the way: Scions must be half-mortal, period. It is a massively important part of their Legend and makeup as divine heroes, and we are never going to allow Scions who are half alfar or half troll or half tengu or whatever other craziness people sometimes try to pull off. Not only is there no reason for it - there are loads of ways to work those creatures or their imagery into your backstory and flavor if you want to without making yourself randomly of a magical race, and of all games, Scion hardly needs help special-snowflaking its characters up! - but it directly detracts from the core conceit of Scion, which is beginning as a mortal and progressing to divinity through your actions and deeds. If a being is half god and half something that's not mortal, it's not a Scion (although it might be some other kind of semi-divine hero or creature). It was never mortal and can't be part of that heroic progression.
However, it is theoretically possible to have Scions who are half-mortal but were never human, because the option of creating Scions with mortal animals exists. If a god happened to want to roll on down to earth in the form of an animal (well, or anything else - gods are weird) and impregnate a normal animal, that animal's offspring would technically also be half-god and possibly a candidate for Scionhood.
Different Storytellers run with this in different ways. Some just disallow the concept off the bat, saying that humanity and humanity alone has the potential to become Scions, and that's a position that makes sense; animals don't follow the same rules as humans, don't create mythologies, don't tell stories of heroic deeds, don't generate Fatebonds and so on, so they're already not part of the usual paradigm when it comes to human interaction with the divine. There are occasional tales of animals that become divine - Monkey, who becomes Sun Wukong, is the most obvious if you don't want to use Scion's claim that he was a Titanspawn creature to begin with - but even those are only told by humans, to humans and for humans. The ability to create religion, after all, is a uniquely human trait, and the gods themselves are part of those religions.
But some Storytellers do run with the possibility of half-animal, half-god Scions, so if yours is down with it, that might be an option. Of course, there are a lot more inherent problems and complications with playing a Scion that isn't human; can your bandmates talk to you? How are you supposed to function in this totally alien society? Do you become humanoid, and if not, what other challenges await you? Are the gods ever going to take you seriously? Do you have Human Ken instead of Animal Ken? Does the Animal purview sort of not work for you half the time, or does your ST need to write a whole new Human purview for you to be able to do things? Are you, the player, even going to be able to roleplay this in an interesting and effective way, or is it just going to be either annoying for everyone or forgotten and played mostly the same way you'd play a human-based character? And so on and so forth.
But hey, if you're game for all that and your Storyteller is, too, we don't see anything necessarily wrong with playing a half-animal Scion. We probably wouldn't do it in our games without a really great pitch from a player, but it's still in the realm of the reasonable. We think of it as a little bit like playing a lupus werewolf in White Wolf's old Werewolf: The Apocalypse: not many people really do it, and those who do usually end up just playing exactly the same as if they'd played homid anyway, but in rare cases it might turn out to be really neat. Not a perfect metaphor since Werewolf's premise certainly lends itself to playing animals better than Scion's, but not out of the ballpark, either.
It'd be interesting to have players of the same god, but one from a human base and one from an animal. Not that there aren't always vast gulfs of difference between each character, even if they have the same parent, but that would be even more of a culture shock barrier, wouldn't it?
Then you have your classic human raised by animals stories in myth like Romulus and Remus. Always fun socially awkward characters there.
ReplyDeleteIt's true. We had one of those - Luke Honre, Scion of Cernunnos.
DeleteIt turned out that being raised by wild animals did not give him a great starting background for playing well with others.
Your storyteller also has the option of deciding there are lots of other things besides humans who are mortal. One storyteller might say that all Alfar are legendary creatures, while another storyteller might say that all Alfar are mortals.
ReplyDeleteGotham By Night completely supports the former, of course, but it is totally possible to do the latter and not break anything mechanically.
It's never a question of mechanics when it comes to the makeup of a Scion; it's a question of theme. Of course Storytellers can allow whatever they want, and I imagine they will, too.
DeleteBut we'd say that creatures that live in magical realms, constantly hang out and drink with gods and are clearly and irrefutably supernatural perforce have a Legend rating... so we would never consider Alfar to be mortal for purposes of Scion-making.
Well they do not have to be clearly and irrefutably supernatural if the storyteller does not want them to be. Your average space alien probably qualifies as a moral, and while space aliens are not a theme you would find in most scion games it does suggest that more than animals and humans can be mortals.
DeleteAnd of course, lots of gods have no problem taking mortals up to their overworlds to eat and drink with them. Only the ones with Harmony would really freak out, or Order if there was a rule against it in a certain pantheon.
There are probably lots of favored mortals running around Olympus for example, especially if they have fatebonds that the gods like and want to preserve. Some might even be hundreds of years old thanks to gods using health boons.
It's all about what kind of changes to the baseline setting you want to make. Alfar are most definitely supernatural in Norse mythology; you don't have to play them that way if you don't want to, but it's definitely there in the Eddas, so you'll be deviating from the mythology the game's based on if you do. Similarly, mortals almost never appear in Overworlds - I can't think of a single example of one in Olympus, actually, nor most other places - because most ancient religions simply didn't conceive of the world of gods as accessible to mortals, but again, you can of course do whatever you want with it as a Storyteller.
DeleteWe like to play close to the mythology that Scion's based on (obviously, I know you guys know that), so we're never going to roll with the alfar being mortal or the Dodekatheon having a bunch of random humans running around on Olympus. But every Storyteller runs their game differently. :)
Well, some Alfar are definitely supernatural in the Eddas but we don't know if all the Alfar are supernatural. So it really depends on what kind of explanation an individual storyteller wants to use as you mentioned. :P
DeleteI can think of a few people that ended up in the Olympus, especially Tantalus and Ixion. But it would be just as easy to say that they were visited scions as to say they were mortals.
And of course, nothing seems to actually stop a psychopomp from taking mortals to the overworld, mechanically. So I don't see why they couldn't do it if they wanted to.
Exactly - all the dudes going to Olympus have divine blood (Tantalus, Ixion, Ganymede, Semele, and on ad infinitum). Which makes sense; Greek mythology loves some divine-blooded heroes and doesn't usually have a lot of extra leftover love for plain old regular dudes who aren't involved with the gods.
DeleteOh, sure, they mechanically certainly could. But we're not talking about mechanics, rather about flavor. If something clearly doesn't happen in mythology, our inclination is not to assume it's happening secretly but rather to assume that it's not happening, because we like to roll with the ancient myths. You don't have to do it that way, a'course.
I can't follow you on the "some alfar might be mortal argument", though. Races are generally one or the other; there aren't random immortal humans or mortal trolls and shit happening without direct divine intervention.
Right, but we don't actually know for certain if they have divine blood, or just claimed to have divine blood, or if they were even visited. It's super easy to claim that your father or mother is a god, so it seems like begging the question to assume that everyone who ever went up to Olympus must naturally have been telling the truth.
DeleteWhat I meant about the "some alfar might be mortal" is mostly the same as Scions. You might have a lot of perfectly normal alfar, with some famous or important alfar tinged with divine blood that gives them a legend score the same way Scions are. Those might be the alfar that end up in the Eddas.
Except that Alfar are a supernatural race, characterized that way with superhuman qualities in the Eddas, who live in an entirely different world and hang out with gods and other magical beings all the time. Humans are not. They are quite fundamentally different, and there's no such thing as a non-Legendary alf. (Not that having a god for a parent wouldn't probably make them a more powerful alf than they would normally be, but they're all baseline Legendary to start with.)
DeleteYou can always decide that someone in mythology isn't really divine, but it's important to be aware that you're editing and picking and choosing when you do. We could also say that the Nemean Lion never existed and Hercules just happened to kill a normal lion and told everyone it was actually a magical monster. Most people wouldn't, though, because it's one of the legends and features of Greek mythology and it doesn't make a lot of sense to say, "Well, all the other Greek myths count as real for our games, but this one doesn't."
Or at least, that's the way we feel about it, so we don't do it. But, as established above, all Storytellers get to make their own decisions about what they do in their games.
Hey I'm sorry for coming into this because this looks like a pretty heated argument, but what about the Einherjar? They (were) mortal, they live in Valhalla, they're not even expressly stated to be DEAD (taken from the battlefield right before the moment of death) so they're not really 'militarized ghosts' either. And I think Valhalla is in Asgard, though the mythology might state Valhalla is some magical Terra Incognita far away. So doesn't Odin have mortals in Asgard preparing to help him fight Ragnarok?
DeleteThe only reason I'm asking is because whether mortals/Scions/ANYONE OTHER THAN GODS THEMSELVES are allowed in the Overworld has been a question that's plagued our roleplaying group since we first started playing Scion four years ago.
We'd classify Valhalla as an Underworld, not the Overworld - gods don't live in it or even visit very often, and it's exclusively associated with the disposition of the dead. You can certainly get to Valhalla from Asgard, but it's not part of it.
DeleteLesser immortals often crop up in Overworlds - nymphs and valkyries and all those critters - but humans and half-humans generally don't. It's not a case of evil unfair arbitrary rules; it's just that almost every world mythology makes a very clear separation between where the gods live and where mortals can go, and they almost never overlap. Ancient peoples generally believed that the realm of the gods was absolutely and totally beyond the reach of humans like themselves, who they knew had no power or importance by comparison at all, so they have no stories of those mortals going there and Scions, before they become gods themselves, follow the same general pattern.
Some STs do allow Scions into the Overworld before godhood - actually, we had some of our Scions visit Overworlds while still Demigods, although they couldn't get there on their own and had to be transported by gods. It depends on how much you want to roll with the way the old cultures who created the mythologies thought of them.
The new poll won't let me change my vote! I need to change my vote!
ReplyDeleteReally?
ReplyDeleteI mean I can understand not allowing some things but beautiful chicks like the Alfar and the Greek nymphs as lovers of the gods. I mean how many nymphs were seduced by Zeus alone? Billions. And they don't really do much aside from look pretty. They're not like Valkyries, who have a job to do and no time for romance. Or Amazons.
Oh, sure, they're not important, but that doesn't mean they're mortal. Nymphs clearly aren't; they're children of Titans in most cases and possess powers beyond those of humans, usually over the natural world (dryads, naiads and so forth). They're certainly Legendary, definitely not on the same plane with mortals, but that doesn't mean they're godly, either. Most nymphs probably hang out around Legend 3-5 or so.
DeleteAnd of course, they're often lovers of the gods! They can definitely be divine consorts, and can definitely have kids with them (and do, frequently!), but their children aren't Scions. They're just more lesser immortals.
Different Anon, but I was in a game recently where one of the players was half god, half nymph Scion. Nothing bad happened and we all had a great time.
DeleteMore power to ya. :)
DeleteYeah, thats fine. But that person isnt a scion by the games definition.
DeleteThe game definitions needs to suck it up, because sometimes what is fun for the players is more important than making sense. :D
DeleteYeah. I play a lot of vampire the masquerade where Im a fairy-werewolf hybrid.
DeleteYou do? That's kind of strange, but I guess if everyone at your table is cool with it and you portray it well, then more power to you!
Delete/sarcasm
Delete/hyperbole
A lot of gods are born to nymphs and gods, Hermes and Pan being good examples, so clearly those kinds of relationships don't result in Scions, just other gods. Some nymphs even mothered demigods with mortals, showing their lesser gods in their own right. Maybe something like a werewolf or something undead could work, but even then it still would be more of a lesser immortal than a god.
ReplyDeleteI meant scion not god at the end.
DeleteI don't think that gods can be werewolves or vampires though; those are their own thing. I think the closest would be like having a bat or wolf nagual; and even then you only transform into a animal, not a wereform.
DeleteYou could be a God OF vampire or OF werewolves, but no.. Gods generally are not those things. Or ghosts, or mummies, or whatever else. They're Gods.
DeleteLesser Immortals isn't a great term for them, but English hasn't got a single word that means supernatural beings that aren't Gods. And even then, there are some very unGodly Gods running around.
I don't really see why gods cannot be werewolves or vampires. A friend of mine was in a game that recently ended where one of the characters was cursed to be a werewolf. She had no intention of giving that up, and kept right on trucking towards legend 9.
DeleteWell, there's also a difference between what gods do in the baseline setting and what new PC gods might do. By definition they're new, unique and have all kinds of newfangled ideas; just because there has never been a god that was a werewolf doesn't mean a new Scion couldn't decide to be the first.
DeleteBut that also doesn't mean we should start retroactively deciding a bunch of gods in the original myths were also werewolves. Let the new Scions do their new fancy thing - how they're different from their parents is half the fun.
(Personally, I think it'd be hard for a Scion to make it all the way to god as a werewolf - even if she wasn't ever able to cure herself of the curse/infection/whatever, unlikely enough considering how badass Scions can be, I'd probably rule that it was broken when she hit Legend 9 and became a full-fledged deity. But that's one of those ST preference things.)
Yeah, the curse of being a werewolf isnt gonna hold when you become a god...it just isnt.
DeleteThat may be true for your games, but I personally think that the Divine Apotheosis is a deeply personal event that takes a lot of influence from your psyche and what fate has in store for you.
DeleteWhen your have your Apotheosis, if you have deeply internalized being a werewolf (or whatever) into your personal identity, then your new body will probably reflect being a werewolf in all the ways that are important.
Alternatively, fate may decide that your curse has become a powerful theme in the story of your character and it continues to haunt him well past his Apotheosis.
But this all depends on what the player wants. A player who wanted to break the curse could probably do so as part of his Apotheosis since his idealized self does not want to continue being a werewolf (or whatever).
There are very easy ways to justify either option.
You can think whatever you like, but we're not gonna promote it or agree with it here.
DeleteThat's why I'm promoting it.
DeleteI think, having been the ST to run the werewolf curse up into God, that if Fatebindings and Expectations lock you into the agonizing trouble that is werewolfism, that it's fine to keep as you become a god.
DeleteI'm not suggesting it's a 100% across the board situation, but I talked with my player AND their group and the consensus was highly in favor of keeping the curse.
It is something that should be talked between ST?player and can work in some games and not in others.
yeah, its a very personal thing. I dont think it works, like the god apotheosis thing is/should destroy a curse that is very physical in nature. BUT over the long life of a character commitment and pc growth it might be something that i decided worked out and fit well in a particular situation. But not something id agree with across the board.
DeleteI dont think theres anything really wrong with it. It just opens some very strange doors of the explanation of apotheosis and what it really means to be a werewolf.
Amazons are probably mortals. Maybe Legendary mortals, sometimes, but they're basically mortals. Centaurs, nymphs, dryads, tengu, dwarves, trolls, giants, etc are not "mortal" even if they have a set lifespan. They're Legendary Beings. They're utterly inhuman on a biological and mythological level. So they don't have that spark of uniquely human spirit that allows Scions to better themselves and become Gods.
ReplyDeleteYeah, I'd agree - Amazons are just meant to be a faraway exotic race of lady-people, I think, not inhuman. I don't recall any particularly magical powers from any of them, just good old-fashioned warrior moxy.
DeleteHmmm, as a ST, I'd likely for 'teh lulz' have them either rename Animal Ken to Human Ken... or Presence to Human Ken ( And have animal ken apply to different animals? ). Dunno. Also likely pester them into having the proper animal purview for their kind... because reasons.
ReplyDeleteBut my question is... what if they're an Aztec Scion? What would their... nahualli or w/e be? Would it be another animal of the same breed? A different breed? A person? How would the person even react to this?
Well... Aztec cosmology says that humans have nahuallis. It has no corresponding concept for animals, who don't need an animal half and are generally considered entirely separate and different creatures from people. I would say your animal Scion could have a nahualli because one might come with the divine blood from the god... but it would definitely be weird to fiddle around with. (It would definitely not be a human, though. The Devas may have humans and machines and plants and whatever else they want as vahanas, but the Aztec conception of nahualli is very specifically animal.)
DeleteHowever! It's neat that you mention this because we just finished working on the Maya pantheon, and they do have an equivalent concept for animals. The Maya semi-equivalent to the nahualli is called the uay, and for most humans it functions about the same; it's an animal spirit twin that is generally supposed to exist but to be inaccessible to all but the gods or the most impressive human sorcerers. However, according to the Maya cosmological view, animals do have uay of their own, usually humans that they are connected to or other animals that are symbiotically related. Theoretically, an animal and a human might be each others' uay, although we don't have a lot of specifics on the way the concept was used before the conquest.
I'm not sure where I was going conclusion-wise, but here, I'm waving my hands and Mesoamerican spirit twin stuff is falling out!
We run far away from anything done for lulz.
DeleteAnd we wouldnt allow a straight animal scion, not that they wouldnt exist, but we wouldnt let a player be one....so cant help you with the aztec question.
Two things come to mind:
ReplyDelete1. Half-sibling Scions of Sun Wukong, one an ape raised as a pet by a human family, and one a feral child raised by apes, a modern day Tarzan. They fight crime (and Titanspawn), because lulz.
2. I had the Fenris Wolf and Jörmundgandr (who are neither Gods, nor Titans, nor Scions, but something alltogether different) being able to empower their own Titanspawn offspring (Fenrir in the case of Fenris, Lindwurms in the case of Jörmundgandr) into something that is almost, but not entirely, similar to a Scion. (Technically not a Scion, but works the same.) That would require a bit of actual divine ichor, though, and it has to be a) from an actual blood relative, ie. Loki or Hel, or a Scion of either; and b) freely given.
Actually had a Scion of Loki make a deal-with-the-devil kind of thing, and consent to a blood transfusion between himself and his Fenrir nephew Wulfila. Mechanically, I represented it by giving Wulfila Fenris' associateds, but replacing Animal (Wolf) with Animal (Human), and giving the donating Scion Animal (Wolf) as an extra associated for his trouble. I also swapped their Virtues around a bit - Wulfila replaced one of his Dark Virtues with an Aesir Virtue, and vice versa.
lindwurms with jormundgandr are strange. Id probably make it serpents that were more alike to jorm instead of just throwing lindwurms in there with him cause they're snake-esque. If hes gonna have children/titanspawn they should be directly connected to him, like fenris has fenrir.
DeleteWell, I never got around to actually introducing a Pseudo-Scion of Jörmundgandr, and Lindwurms were the first Norse-themed serpents I came to think of. But it's still on the idea stage when it comes to Jörmundgandr. I'd be happy for a few tips and pointers. :)
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