Question: Zeus has, in a number of myths displayed an impressive command of shapeshifting, even going so far as to impregnate Danae in the form of a shower of gold. Do you think it would be too much of a stretch to give him Illusion as associated? And if not, what are the criteria you look for while giving out this particular association? Most other purviews are fairly self-explanatory, but Illusion has always been a purview I have not been able to properly ascertain the applicability of.
You're not alone. Illusion is probably the most difficult purview to assign to a god of all of them, which shouldn't be too surprising. It is, after all, a set of powers dedicated to looking like you're doing other things, which makes it difficult to notice it happening without a really great degree in Shenanigans Studies.
To get the easier question out of the way, no, we wouldn't consider Illusion for Zeus. He does do quite a bit of shapechanging, but that's the only thing he ever does that could be interpreted as an Illusion power, and it's something even a Legend 5 Scion could probably do with Dreamcraft and a decent roll. Combined with the total lack of illusionist, trickster or dream imagery associated with Zeus, it's just not enough to justify saying that he has the Avatar of the purview.
As for deciding when a god should have Illusion, however, there's no really clear answer and it's sometimes just exceptionally difficult to figure out. Some gods do have Illusion, but others are good at mundane disguises, using Magic spells creatively, messing around with their Appearance or just really great liars. There are a few good hallmarks we look for, but in the end sometimes we just have to make a judgment call and keep refining it if we come up with new stories or information.
Some gods are very easy to identify as masters of illusion; Manannan mac Lir is a good example of this, since he not only shapechanges but also does things like laying permanent veils of invisibility over people to separate them and conjuring up false images of a phantom fleet to confound his enemies. For those gods who aren't actively conjuring up visions, those who perform a lot of different transformations are often candidates, particularly if they transform into various different kinds of things instead of only animals or only different images of people (Loki's a good example of this kind of illusion usage). Gods who manipulate dreams or visions in others, like Morpheus, for example, are also possible candidates for Illusion since they specialize in creating and manipulating unreality. Gods who obscure reality in some way and are called upon to do so on behalf of others are also possible illusionists, which is the case for Marishiten, who was called upon to obscure the movements of armies and confuse their enemies.
But these are all just indicators; some gods that do those things really aren't suitable candidates for Illusion, while others that don't still end up with the purview (like Brahma, who is lord of creation in a world where all things created are illusions). It's also important to consider what the god is the patron deity of, what his character is as a god and whether or not those things affect his eligibility for the purview. We consider tricksters to be more "likely" candidates for Illusion than some other kinds of gods, since bending reality and creating diversions is part of their character as gods, and similarly we might consider gods who are known as dreamweavers or shapeshifters before others. Conversely, gods who do things that might be illusions but who have characters completely opposite the idea - Zeus, for example, who represents divine order and doesn't have a trickstery bone in his body, falls under this category - are poor candidates for gods who can embody The Trickster in times of need.
But, of course, every trickster does not have Illusion, and every god with Illusion is not a trickster. In the end, it's a judgment call based on stories and epithets and divine personality, like all the other purviews, but since the purview is about uncertainty, confusion and misdirection by nature, it's correspondingly harder to pinpoint than something straightforward like Fire or Guardian.
Basically, Illusion is more of a headache than most purviews. There's no quick and easy absolute, just a set of guidelines and possibilities to come to with an open mind.
Really the solution is to move shapeshifting into itsown thing.
ReplyDeleteI don't think so, actually. Shapeshifting, as a concept, isn't something that's big enough, cosmic enough or general enough to be a purview on its own. It's done by many different gods, but in many different ways and certainly not in some coherent set-of-powers way. In addition, there are a lot of powers (Illusion is one of them) that should be able to perform shapeshifting, and either they'd be unfairly deprived of it or the shapeshifting set of powers would just be repeating everything that other purviews are doing.
DeleteShapeshifting's a flexible concept that happens a lot in myth, but it's not on par with ideas like the Sun or Justice; there's no such thing as a god of shapeshifting, just several gods that sometimes do it as part of their adventures. It makes sense that it can be accomplished many different ways - Animal, Illusion, Magic, Appearance and so on. It's just a pain in the ass for the behind the scenes work, unfortunately.
I agree there need to be a lot of ways to shapeshift, but *why* is Magic one of them? Why, oh WHY did they name that Purview "Magic"? It was just begging to have every extra power that didn't neatly fit into one of the other Purviews tossed into it (and some powers that DO fit neatly into other Purviews...) because 'it's Magic!' and everything in Scion is bloody magic.
DeleteStupid Magic Purview, being stupid. It doesn't know what it's doing with itself at all. It's the Thaumaturgy of Scion in the *bad* way. It wants to be the Diet version of other Purviews and Knacks.
For me, the issue with shapeshifting is that turning into an animal? That should be an Animal Boon. Except Animal isn't about that, it's about having a Totem Animal and so you'd have to buy the same Purview/Boon over and over to represent being able to turn into many animals.
Illusion lets you turn into things, but only after a huge investment in the Purview (Rank 9!). In a cherry-picking system, that isn't as bad, but still pretty restrictive.
There is the option of allowing Unusual Alteration to turn yourself into animals, but that seems to get awfully stompy on Animal Form since it totally outclasses what Animal Form can do by a few dozen miles.
So, at the end of the day, the whole thing where Gods randomly turn into animals whenever they want, regardless of their own symbolic associations? Just not mapped well in Scion because mythology refuses to neatly conform with game systems and balance.
not mapped well in Scion because mythology refuses to neatly conform with game systems and balance.
DeleteSo many things in the game fall into this category. Alas.
Magic is seriously a barrel of mess, especially in the original rules. We think there's room for a lot of interpretations of "meddling with Fate", but some of the original spells are seriously out there, and it's very clear that different writers didn't have the same understanding of what "magic" really means in this game's setting (as opposed to D&D's).
Illwind Curse. Lord have mercy.
What I don't get is why doesn't Zeus have Animal assosiated. I mean he transforms into them all the time and he has the eagle as his Totem animal, I mean I have read about him doing more with animal then Hera with her peacocks. Giving him animal and at least the transform others magic spell would at least explain some of his stories to me (him transforming into a bull and kidnapping europa, Io being transformed into a heifer) the only thing I don't get is how did he pull of that golden rain thing? Which powers would he have used?
ReplyDeleteDreamcraft (Illusion 4) or anything higher in that purview could have done the golden rain pretty easily - make the girl think she sees that instead of him during sex, easy as pie. He's a sky god, so it also might have been actual rain; he could just have put semen in the rain and dumped it on her.
DeleteHe doesn't have Animal because he isn't an animal god. He never does the same animal twice - he turns into different ones a few times, but none are really even close to a totem animal, which is what Animal is all about. And that's the only thing he does with animals - all other animal boons are conspicuously absent. You're right that Hera's peacock associations aren't strong enough for her to have The Beast, but neither are Zeus'. He certainly has some Animal boons, but not the Avatar of it.
He could also use Unusual Alteration to turn into Golden Rain. Or he could use a weird combination of Epic Stamina Knacks (for impregnating things with only a touch) and Sky Boons to manage it.
DeleteMost of the Greeks aren't really The Beast material. Poseidon is probably the only one, with his whole Horse thing.
I wasn't saying shapeshifting should be a purview but it seems like the knack chain in epic appearance works abit better climbing its way up to "transform into beautiful golden showers" and such.
ReplyDeleteUnusual Alteration can already do some pretty wacky stuff, so I'm definitely with you there. :)
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