Wednesday, April 3, 2013

Creative Juices

Question: How do you guys handle character creation? Do you use Scion RAW, or do you do something different?

Question: What is your policy when an old character dies (or becomes unplayable) and a new one needs to be made, or a new player joins your group? How is character creation handled then in terms of allocating xp?

Lumping these into one post so we can all talk about character creation together! First, let me make an announcement.

Yesterday morning was our thousandth post here on the JSR blog! It's hard to believe we've spent that much time hanging out with you guys, answering questions, discussing world mythology and having a blast, but it's true. In celebration, we're going to do a bonus project this week and write up our character creation process to release on the website in the House Rules section. Since we're hard at work on that, I'm not going to go into detail here, but I'll give you the basics of the differences from the RAW as a teaser:

  • No buying Legend. Ever. Seriously, stop.
  • No bonus points. They make no sense and screw the non-mathemeticians at the table.
  • Character balance requirements. Making sure starting PCs can function as mortals in their pre-divine lives, and that they aren't critically crippled at the beginning of the game.
  • Better scaling costs for starting with higher-level powers. Five dots in one ability is more difficult to pull off than five one-dot abilities.
  • Provisions for specialized abilities. We know you're out there, Science-specializers, and we're here to help.
  • Separate pools of points for Epics and boons. Stop trying to buy all Epics and pretend you're not the children of gods, you fakers.
  • Beginning character costs. Suggested starting points for characters created at all three levels of play.
  • Band roles and requirements. For those whose groups have difficulty making viable bands with a good skill spread, an optional system for making sure everything is covered.
  • Other awesome stuff.

Character creation's too big a subject to really tackle in a blog post anyway, so hopefully that'll give you something a little meatier to chew on, question-asker!

Now, on to the second question, which is a little more specific. New characters that have to come into the game mid-stream are challenging because you need them to balance and be able to handle what's going on, but also take into account where they came from and what's going on with them and the rest of the group.

For a new player entering a game in progress, the easiest thing to do is allow him to create a character as normal from the bottom, just the way the rest of the group did originally. Once he has, grant him the same amount of XP your PCs have gotten so far, and let him spend it wherever he'd like. If your PCs have gone through upgrades since then - became Demigods, for example, or Gods - then have the new player spend the XP they got pre-upgrade, go through the upgrade process with him, and then give himthe XP the other players have gotten since the upgrade to spend to bring him up to speed with everyone else. Finally, apply Fatebonds to the new character if he's Legend 5 or higher, and you should be good to go. It won't be a perfect portrait of what a PC that had actually been played would look like, but it'll be close.

Now, know your player: if he's never played before or isn't into math and crunch, this may be too much of a long and confusing process for him, so if that's the case be ready to help out. For players who weren't sure how to build characters but did know what they wanted them to be like, we've in the past done the basic building part, including template upgrades, for them, and then let them just spend the XP wherever they wanted to give it their own personal touch. Some players may not even want to do that much, and might find 150 XP (or whatever) too dauntingly high a number. You should never take character-building or XP-spending out of the hands of a player who wants them, but it's okay to help out if they're floundering. We have also, in rare cases, pre-built an entire character for a player coming into a game; we really only do that if it's a game that has a plot that requires very specific things to be true of new PCs, and we don't recommend it unless you don't have any choice, since players will always have more fun if they're in the driver's seat from the get-go.

Just as important as the numbers is the character himself; make sure your player knows what his backstory is, not just as a mortal but as a Scion, too. If he's joining a game anywhere above Legend 2, he must surely have already been on adventures and missions as a Scion and should know what he did and how his Legend increased by doing it. If there's a lot of stuff happening in your plot that might have affected him, work with him on it and be ready to provide suggestions, though as always avoid taking actual creative control away from him. Some Storytellers like to run little private "chronicles" as a single game session with a new player so they've had at least a cursory run through what they might have done before, while others are fine with just letting the player write it up and submit it for approval, or verbally narrate the general ideas. Whatever floats your boat should work here; just make sure the new PC isn't coming in as a nobody from nowhere.

Now, for PCs that join a game because the player's old PC died, we slightly modify that system; death is a serious consequence and we want it to mean more than just "Welp, I guess I get to reset with a character I can build from scratch who will be better suited for this," so that nobody thinks of it as a convenient way to start over with a better-built character. PCs that come in after their predecessor's death usually start one Legend lower than the dead PC (if the dead PC was already a Legend lower than most of the rest of the group, they might start the same, but the idea is that they're lower Legend than the average bear by a little), close to going up if they do enough awesome stuff but requiring a little time put in to make sure they're up to snuff. You want the player to be able to work up to everyone else and achieve awesomeness instead of just starting at the same level as those who have already put a lot of work into those characters; it makes them a little slower to get their superpowers, but in our experience doesn't prevent them from being important and effective and they generally catch up quickly.

That's about all there is to it, really; you want new characters to be the same level of effectiveness, or close to it, as the ones already in play, so allocate XP accordingly. The math's pretty quick and easy; it's making sure you have a good background on what a new PC has been doing prior to the game in which he's introduced that usually takes a little more work.

16 comments:

  1. Congratulation on the Thousand Posts!!!

    Keep going, cuz you guys are amazing!

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  2. As always i don't fully agree with your choiches, but i really appreciate the effort. Could you elaborate a little bit onto the following part:

    1)[...]No bonus points. They make no sense and screw the non-mathemeticians at the table[...]
    [...]Separate pools of points for Epics and boons. Stop trying to buy all Epics and pretend you're not the children of gods, you fakers[...].
    I think those two statements contradict each other, could you please explain?

    2) Why should someone whose character died(maybe in an heroic way), nust start to play gimped toward the rest of the band?.
    2a) Also Why should someone who joins a game must be lower in legend that the rest of the band? i don't think the reason you've given " to motivate him" sounds too good.

    3)Why Each character in your game must have a role like the A-team/D&D Group Es: The bruiser,the heaker etc?.

    I doesn't seem nice to force a player to play a role he doesnt' want to?.


    These Questions, poorly written i know, are not meant to be offensive bust just as questions.

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    1. Bonus Points - ugh.
      That whole end of character creation.
      Spend 7 points to get a point of legend, one point for an ability, four points for a knack etc etc

      Trying to explain that to your players after having had them create PCs up to hat point is not fun

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    2. 1) Im not sure how they contradict at all. One is saying bonus points are stupid and favor mathmatic power gaming, the other is saying players need to buy both boons and epics.

      2) Because they havnt had the same experiences as the other characters? Because they havnt been effected by other things in game, and because having all the XP in one lump they're able to easily "math" how to get the most bang for their buck point wise. If given exactly the same XP, new characters are often able to be better "mathed" then characters that have been playing for a year because of this.

      2a)Again, because the other characters have earned it.

      3)This was something players often talked about before hand anyway. "someone has to be the healer", "we need a psychopomp." People would often get caught up in character creation figuring these things out. To help them out, I put a system in place that kinda does that for them, without other players feeling like to play the character they want, they have to guilt someone else into buying health.

      In addition, I always have players make several new characters at creation, and no characters must completely share a role, so they have to have a decent amount of differentiation amongst their characters to start.

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    3. Yeah....bonus points are just a stupid, stupid idea....

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    4. Also, being a Legend lower isn't "gimped". It's a slight disadvantage, but especially if the character's built well, he's going to be able to do plenty of cool stuff and keep up decently if he wants to. As I said above, our characters who have come in a Legend lower usually catch up to the band's Legend pretty quickly.

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  3. I don't really agree with the no bonus points bit. How do the players up their birthrights at the start? Do you give them more points?

    Other than that, I'm interested in the no buying legend points. It seems like it frees up a lot of XP, but could potentially hamstring a character who's working towards a certain goal.

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    1. Birthrights are by far the smartest place to spend freebie points. It sucks that anyone who didnt spend points on birthrights was hamstrung. I dont think its necessarily important that heroes have a bunch more birthright points.

      We've never allowed buying legend at any point in the game. It was the first change we made 4 years ago. What certain goal would a character be working towards? Power gaming?

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    2. A lot of the goal here is to make character creation make sense. If you want PCs to be able to do yea much stuff with Birthrights, they should just have that many Birthright points. Bonus points are unnecessary, and their separate point scale also makes them very easy to powergame with if you're good at it or comparatively hamstring yourself if you aren't.

      We never allow buying Legend at any time, in the game or during character creation. There's just no reason for some characters to start higher Legend than others - it's not like some of them are more magical than the others, and it's just a weird holdover from games like Vampire where you could start with different Generation/Blood Potency. But those things change only rarely while Legend should always be increasing as a result of the PCs' actions, so the model doesn't really work in Scion. And buying Legend with XP is just broken - it encourages Scions to always spend their XP only on Legend, because having the giant Legend pool is always more powerful, and leaves you with either high-Legend Scions who have no cool powers and are just powergaming their way to the top, or low-Legend Scions who have cool powers but can't hope to compete with the high-Legend dude. It encourages imbalance and poor spending decisions and has no upside for the game as a whole.

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    3. Also, I'm pathetically happy that you linked back to my question. I feel important.

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    4. Ha ha, you are important!

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  4. what do you think about flat xp like they are using in the Nwod revisions? where something always costs the same rather than the expanding model?


    On a side note I have hard time personally making starting scions with boons. I mean you look at Hercules, Gilgamesh, Orpheus they are tossing around superhuman prowess but not much "manipulate the universe" in discrete ways. Its just an odd quirk of mine but I just don't feel "right" having a starting scion with such things it just feels better at Legend 3 or so.

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    1. Flat XP doesn't work very well for Scion at the moment. It makes sense for World of Darkness because there isn't much variation between power on things - every dot of an ability or attribute you buy is just one more die, so it makes sense that you wouldn't charge escalating costs for them. Scion's got the giant exponential power curve, though, so when there is a very significant difference between Epic Strength 1 and Epic Strength 5, they should also cost differently. We're also generally fans of escalating costs, even small escalations, in most games; you're going off to be the best at something, after all, and it should be more difficult to master the intricacies of an ancient martial art than to learn how to punch a bag.

      I agree about powers to a small extent - sometimes it doesn't feel right for a character to start with certain powers. For example, I almost never buy Wind's Freedom until Demigod; it's not that it isn't useful (it is hella useful), but it doesn't feel to me like a Hero thing to do, so I usually don't unless a particular character has a good reason for it. But most of the boons at level 1 are specifically tailored to be things that Heroes can do; surviving fires, talking to animals, refusing to be picked up, sleight-of-handing small objects and so on, all things that heroes the likes of ancient sagas can and do do. Not to mention PSPs, which are almost always things a brand-new Scion can feel good about starting with since they're inborn in all heroes of his or her kind.

      Hercules is always everyone's example for a Scion with no purviews, but he's not a very good one. He also never has purviews ever, in his entire career, even when he's a god, so unless you're also going to avoid having purviews forever he's not a great template for How To Build a Scion.

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  5. I had other examples there. I mean most of the Scion types who transition into full gods seem to be from my limited understanding superhumanly capable then suddenly when they are being worshiped as gods they get a bunch of added on associations. SO it sort of made sense to me that hero tier would be all epic attributes, demigod where you start manifesting things that you'll have when a full fledged god and so on.

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    1. I saw them, I just didn't have anything to say about them. I don't think they do much to help prove the point one way or the other. :)

      I'm not sure why you're making that distinction at Demigod? "Heroes" of mythology really range in Legend across a bunch of space, and some of them very clearly have boons, like Cu Chulainn with War or Sigurd with Animal. And even if you don't feel like you see a lot of boons at Legend 2, there ought to be a hell of a lot of them at Legend 3 and 4, which would be stymied by a system in which Scions didn't get boons until then (or were encouraged to buy only epics, the way the tragically unbalanced original rules run character creation).

      Keep in mind that there are plenty of low-Legend boons that aren't immediately obvious; Scions with Astronomer's Eye, Penetrating Glare, Eye of the Storm, Night Eyes, Safely Interred, Green Thumb, Vigil Brand, Assess Health, Judgment, Fundamentals, Peaceful Meeting, Open Sesame, Blessing of Insight and many of the low-level PSPs are boons that don't necessarily appear to be big showstopping god powers, and can just as easily be mistaken for the use of Epics. If a divine hero used them in an ancient myth, you'd be just as likely to think they had great Epics, or that they had received a little divine favor. Those boons are available at Legend 2 specifically because they're at that level of mythic power: superhuman, but certainly not yet divine, merely tiny tastes of the power that Demigods and Gods will have. They begin you on the road to your eventual destiny, but they don't necessarily make you appear all that different. They're perfect for Scions who are more than human but not yet that much more.

      We want Scions to have boons from the get-go because it's an important and intrinsic part of what they are; they have divine blood in their veins and they should likewise have divine powers. If all boons were insane superpowers out of the gate, I would agree with you - but they definitely aren't, because we've specifically designed them to let Scions do as much or as little showboating into their powers as they want to. You're always the arbiter of what powers you get and how you use them, but you should have some. There's just as much evidence of Hero-level Scions with boons in ancient myth as without, and those "without" are likely to be using some of the stealth powers I listed above to good effect.

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