Question: Why does Animal have so many dice adders? It's less about animals and more about adding tons of dice.
Ah, Animal. Perennially popular for the complaints and confusion.
Animal is a representative purview; it has to represent a Scion's connection to her totem animal in various ways, but at the same time it revolves around a concept - animals - that can only be concretely expressed in so many ways.
All purviews have some of this disconnect; there's a difference between what a boon represents - that is, what effect it has in the world of the game and what everyone sees happen when a Scion uses it - and what it mechanically does - that is, what game mechanics occur that try to model that effect. What a purview is about is the actual meaning and use behind the boons, not what the game has to do to try to represent that. Boons across all purviews - Hornet's Nest in Chaos, Prince of Lies in Illusion, Aurora in Stars - can be reduced town to merely "adds/subtracts some dice", but that doesn't mean they aren't portraying important and necessary powers.
The Animal purview is twofold: it is about both commanding and controlling animals, and becoming more animalistic yourself. Boons such as Animal Communication, Animal Obedience, Call of the Wild, Ride Animal, Hive Mind, Hybrid Chimera and the creation boons belong to the first part of the purview, giving a Scion tools to interact with, control and communicate with her totem animal whenever and wherever she encounters it. On the other hand, boons like Faunaphagia, Animal Aspect, Animal Feature, Animal Form, Natural Army and Bestial Nature belong to the second portion of the purview, allowing a Scion to become closer to the symbols and powers of her totem animal herself. The first set of boons are relatively easy to mechanize because they have easy, clear effects: animals talk to you, or show up when you call, or combine and become new animals and so on. The boons that involve being more bestial yourself, however, are much more difficult to turn into direct effects.
Animal Form's the easy one; you turn into an animal, bang, boom, done. But what about all the other boons that involve taking no animalistic parts of yourself or aligning more closely with the beast? Those don't have clear-cut effects, so Scion has to try to come up with some. Animal Feature and Bestial Nature have a clear effect in that they give you actual body parts from an animal, but with the exception of purely utilitarian ones like wings or gills, that doesn't actually do anything mechanically, and your nifty eagle talons are just ornamental without some other system to make them worthwhile. Even more abstract ones like Animal Aspect, which involve taking on a quality of an animal rather than a concrete body part, have no clear effect to call their own at all, despite being ideas that should be represented and available to young Scions. The dice adders (or, in the case of Bestial Nature, success adders) are quick and simple ways to add a mechanic to those very necessary boons so that Scions aren't stuck with only Animal Form to illustrate their close connection to their own animal natures.
Of course, dice adders are easy to overdo, so we try not to add too many new ones. Too many powers in the game that add extra things to rolls have the effect of bloating those rolls, which in turn bogs the game down with too many things to keep track of and too much time spent doing math. There are a lot of Storytellers who feel that the game has too many dice adders already, let alone adding new ones, and we think there's definitely some truth to that. But we honestly don't have a better mechanic for the Animal boons, which benefit from a very simple bonus and don't have anything else that more accurately describes what they do.
The important thing is to remember what your boons do, not just what mechanics model that. When you take on an Animal Aspect, you're not just paying Legend to get some extra dice; you're temporarily aligning yourself with some part of your totem animal, taking on its power and surrounding yourself with the aura of its symbolism. Don't just say, "Eh, I pop Animal Feature"; you're growing extra body parts, man, narrate that shit! The dice are what you're getting to make the power worthwhile, but they're not what's actually happening in the game itself. Don't forget to be awesome.
As with most dice adders, it's all about the stunting. Animal does have more adders than most other purviews, but that's because it has to try to model a concept that is harder to turn into a concrete effect than most others (and the fact that they're so close together at the high-Hero/low-Demigod level makes it seem even more rampant). Don't confuse what the purview is doing in terms of dice with what it's actually about; those boons are about cloaking yourself in your totem animal's powers and aspects, and that's the way they should be played.
What the purview is doing is making everyone take animal, if they want to be the best at something.
ReplyDeleteScion's absolutely replete with ways to add bonuses to the things you want to do. Animal is only one of those ways (although it is great at it, isn't it?). But it's not what Animal is about, so it's really only "making" people take it if they both want to be awesome at stuff and do it in an animalistic way. If your goal is just to be a powergamer who wants the maximum possible advantages to your roll, then yeah, you should take Animal - but then again, if you're just playing to get the highest bonuses, I'm not sure why you care. Might as well complain about every other dice-adder in the game, of which there are many (not even including things like Birthrights or Arete).
DeleteAnimal Aspect being Hero-level definitely makes it look like the deck is stacked toward Animal if you never play toward higher Legends, but in the grand scheme of things, it's really not. And we actually love that it's a quick and great bonus to things that anyone can pick up, because lots of demigods and gods in mythology do that: they have minor animal associations without having the Animal purview associated, which most likely means they have and use things like Animal Aspect on a semi-regular basis. Anybody past Legend 4 can easily pick up AA, low-level and not a huge XP sink, without having to actually be a god of animals, and it's totally mythically resonant for them to do so. Almost all gods have at least some animal associations, even if they aren't going all the way to Zoomorphic Partytown.
And, as always, XP you spend on Animal (or any other dice adder) isn't being spent on other things, so those who spend their XP elsewhere will have different skills than you that may or may not be more useful than just a dice bonus. Jenny's Animal Aspect may be hella useful when she's rolling that Attribute, but her buddy who bought Wind's Freedom can fly, which no amount of AA can reproduce for her, and her other bandmate who bought Unbarred Entry can slip right through an impenetrable barrier while she's stuck outside without the relevant skill. Dice adders are great multi-purpose tools, but they can only bolster existing skills, whereas those spending their XP elsewhere can have more of said skills. Unless your game reaches a point where everyone has enough XP to buy literally everything, buying up Animal always means sacrificing other powers you could have gotten, which balances itself very nicely.
If you just want to be the absolute best at X roll, then sure - get Animal Aspect, Animal Feature and Bestial Nature and rock the hell out of them (and make sure to get all the other boosting powers in the game as well, or someone will likely be able to muster up a combination that can still top you - Animal's by no means the only way to win at rolls). We encourage that. But if you don't, that doesn't mean you're gimped and will never win against people with Animal. We've had plenty of folks with no Animal whatsoever who've done just fine, including Alison, Goze and Kettila, and plenty of others who picked it up to about level 3 for occasional use but never invested in it further. Go ye and do likewise.
So that's why Etzli is so batshit.
ReplyDeleteHar har, I see what you did there!
DeleteBut animal is a big part of why Etzli can steamroll people, based on the stat breakdown from a long while back.
It sure is. But Eztli is an animalistic being and always has been, so that makes perfect sense. Sverrir, on the other hand, never got Animal above level 2 (and then only because Fatebonds bought it for him) and still managed to be a massive danger to the universe and currently the only same-level person to have fought Eztli one-on-one and come out at a draw. There are lots of roads to get there.
DeleteJust think! If he had bought animal aspect he would have completely beaten the hell out of Eztli.
DeleteAnd if she had just bought Dragon's Breath, she would have beaten the hell out of him. And actually, both of those statements probably aren't true, because both of them have tons of other different skills that play off what they do and a single boon isn't capable of completely overcoming the entire rest of a character's skillset. (And that's not even talking about Fatebonds, which is yet another ball of wax you aren't seeing.)
DeleteBoth PCs have finite XP, so whatever one of them buys means they aren't buying something else someone else has. Thus is nature. Unless both PCs have exactly the same thing except that one has bought AA and the other has inexplicably not spent that XP, one is not more powerful than the other. They simply have different skills.
Naah, you can't buy dragon's breath for the same XP as animal aspect. And animal aspect is way too many dice for someone like Sverrir. Tons of dice. Oodles of dice.
DeleteBlow you out of the water amounts of dice.
That's true, but also beside the point to basically everything I said up there. Sverrir having AA does not guarantee him victory any more than Eztli having it did. It's not an instant win and nobody needs to panic about the fact that it's readily available to all PCs. It's good that it's readily available to all PCs, who can use it in whatever way fits their character most.
DeleteAgain, it's what a PC does and builds themselves to do that matters most to the game. I promise you, this one level three boon is not inescapably necessary for all characters nor is it impossible to overcome for those who do have it. It's simply making a choice to buy a booster for other powers instead of new powers on their own.
Clarification: it not being the same XP is true. Sverrir being unbeatable with AA is not true, and in fact he'd be pretty terrible at it if he had it (no Animal Ken, to start with, so all that Epic Stamina of his is basically useless, not to mention Fatebonds being involved).
DeleteI think it pretty much does guarantee him victory, unless he screws something up. Also, why does it matter that he doesn't have animal ken? He's got jack of all trades and tons of wits.
DeleteIt doesn't, because both he and Eztli have tons of other skills that affect what they do and how they do it. The only way Animal Aspect "guarantees" victory is if both parties are doing the same thing and have the same defenses. In that case, yes, one will be overbalanced with dice and almost always win. But that's pretty much no situation ever in Scion, and it's certainly not the case here.
DeleteSeriously, this is not XP in a vacuum. If Sverrir added Animal Aspect to one of his rolls, Eztli would be likely to counter with her own skills (Unbreakable, for example) more than she did in the original encounter. It's rare even for Hero-level Scions to be unable to overcome a foe simply because he has AA, because everyone has different stuff and can approach differently, and it's almost impossible into Demigod and God.
No Animal Ken matters because Sverrir has to blow an extra two Legend to get Animal Ken. It's a very small percentage of his pool, but for someone like Sverrir, who relies on blowing large amounts of Legend on boons as his main method of fighting, it still matters, especially now that you're also assuming he's blowing 3+ Legend on Animal Aspect on top of that. He's going to run out of Legend very quickly, and especially against someone like Eztli, who is practically a Legend battery, he can still lose.
And that's not even mentioning the extra action he's spending to do AA, which always factors into any combat. Especially for Eztli vs. Sverrir, two massive Wits monsters who acted miles before everyone else in the room, where you spend your critical first actions is very important, and him spending one of them on AA instead of something else might have completely changed the progression of the fight for or against him. As above, there are no guarantees, and the math just to figure out probability would be astronomical.
(All of that's enough, but remember that Fatebonds are also in play, so one man's AA is possibly not nearly as powerful as another's and may not always be worth it instead of doing something they're more likely to succeed swimmingly at. In our Eztli vs. Sverrir example, she has a bonus to Animal and Animal Ken while he has a negative, so her Animal Aspect roll comes in around 60 while his usually tops out at 35ish. It may or may not be worth it to blow a bunch of extra Legend, not to mention actions, when Fate's decreed he's not good at it - just like any other skill in the game.)
Great, I just came up with a new character concept due to this post.
ReplyDeleteYay, we're inspiring!
DeleteThere *are* other dice-adding powers out there, no doubt! The big issue for me with Animal is that Aspect and Feature and far and away cheaper, better and *way* more flexible than any of the others.
ReplyDeleteNothing but Animal Aspect is gunna let you add 50 extra dice to a roll for 1 Legend.
Definitely true! But that's a totally valid thing to have in the game. Some powers give you discrete new effects, and some bolster the effects of other powers instead of being new ones. If you want to have a few skills but be amazing at them, buy the bolstering powers. If you want to have more skills and be armed for more different situations, spend XP accordingly.
DeleteIt's actually a good thing, in my opinion, that AA is so low and easy to pick up for basically anybody. As I said above, it's perfectly mythically relevant and applicable to most gods, and it allows Scions to pick it up without a great deal of investment. If they want the serious badassery they'll need to be Animal god enough to get up to Bestial Nature, but AA is pretty awesome in that position.
They're not really more flexible; we require you to assign what they add dice to when you purchase them, so they're only flexible before you buy them and you can't AA willy-nilly for all attributes as you please. Of course, you could buy AA multiple times for different animals... but at that point it ceases to be cheaper than the other dice adders.
We have been talking about nerfing it down a bit, just because it's so many dice, but conceptually we have no problem at all with it.