Our Titans are definitely still a work in progress, so we apologize for the sawdust and confusion.
The canon greater Titans have all been pretty much completely gutted and reworked; the four on the site right now in our Titans section are good examples, with Ourea replacing the old Titanrealm of Terra, Keku replacing old Soku-no-Kumi and Tamoanchan having been invented in the absence of a good Titanrealm antagonist for the Aztlanti. Muspelheim is still itself, but it has new mechanics and Avatars in it, and basically only shares Surtr, Prometheus and Kagutsuchi from the original writeup.
We do have more than four Titanrealms - many more, in fact! - but they're a lot of work to get written out shipshape for the website. When we first did our Titan rewrite project, we put the four of them together to release for the website, and then went to move on to do some other projects in the meantime (because otherwise we'd have been doing nothing but Titanrealms for the past year and maybe killed each other). We fully plan to release more Titanrealms in the same style in the future, and as a matter of fact it looks like they're winning the poll over to the right about what we work on next. If you'd like more maps and angry people, by all means, vote for them. We'll probably only do two Titanrealms or so at a time, but we'll slowly build that big antagonist bank up. :)
We are actually still operating on a model where one pantheon is primarily opposed by one Titanrealm, though of course there's plenty of overlap around the edges since individual Titan Avatars have their own goals and enemies and no pantheon is "immune" to any Titans from any source. The dominant Avatar of a Titanrealm is always from the culture that the realm primarily opposes, so Mixcoatl keeps Tamoanchan pointed at the Aztlanti, Surtr keeps the flames licking at the Aesir, Cronus drives Ourea against the Dodekatheon and Apep leads Keku on the Pesedjet. We plan for each of the playable pantheons to have an oppositional Titanrealm when we're done, but we're still deciding in some cases what Titanrealm should be attached to a particular realm and which figure will take over as the dominant Avatar, so we don't have a concrete list of the future additions. I can give you our maybe list, though:
| Pantheon | Titan Opposition | Dominant avatar |
| The Amatsukami | Death? Storms? | Izanami? Raiden? |
| The Anunna | Beasts | Tiamat |
| The Bogovi | Creation? Sun? | Svarog? |
| The Celestial Bureaucracy | Chaos? Water? | Hundun? Gonggong? |
| The Devas | Illusion | Mayasura |
| The Orisha | Plague? | Shapona? |
| The Tuatha de Danann | Water? Storms? | Lir? |
| The Yazata | Lies/Untruth | Angra Mainyu |
As you can see, we have ideas but not firm choices yet, and all of this is subject to change once we get in and do some really thorough research and work on each pantheon's enemies. There are also several Titanrealms that are definitely in the setting but that don't have a pantheon opponent yet - for example, the Titanrealms of Earth, Frost and Justice, which we use in our games but which have no official opponent yet (unless you're using our new pantheon supplements that haven't made it to the site, in which case Justice is opposed to the Elohim). They'll also be assigned to a pantheon someday, most likely, but further off in the distant future.
Most things on our site are cleaned up to the way we run them, but there are still a few that are under construction - not just the Titans but the Amatsukami/Shen, the Enech purview and a few other rough patches. You'll usually see them on our voting poll as possible future projects we might move to next, and in the meantime, we're always glad to hear ideas about them.
Sorry about all the one-lane traffic and dust. We're working on it, we promise!
So what about Akenaten and Aten considering your PC's run in with angels?
ReplyDeleteThe Titan of Light is one of those Titanrealms I mention that doesn't have an official pantheon opposition yet. Aten himself targets the Dodekatheon and particularly Ra, the same way he did in ages long past. He's very needy.
DeleteLol, are you sure that Ra is with the Dodekatheon Anne? I thought he was with the Egyptians South of the Mediterranean from the Egyptians. :P
DeleteEh, I don't see the sun having a main pantheon. The reason why is that in almost every culture, the sun has been reverred and prayed to. BUT! I can see a nomadic group in the desert maybe fearing it more. Like when the sun gets too hot. But even then thats a stretch cause I have nothing to back up my idea.
Damn it, this is what working late does to me!
DeleteYou're right, the Arab nomads at least weren't overly fond of the sun, and much more interested in nighttime celestial gods since they tended to have to hide and try not to dehydrate during the day. Even they didn't think of it as necessarily hostile, though, more inconvenient and unforgiving.
Titanrealm of Death headed by Izanami sounds a lot more ominous and horrible considering her pledge to kill the hell out of a huge number of people people, than a Titanrealm ruled by a big ogre figure that is almost comical as long as he is not coming for you personally.
ReplyDeleteAin't nothing comical about a giant ogre-monster that eats peoples' entrails, even if those people aren't you. The Raiden/Raijin of traditional Japanese myth doesn't have much in common with the comical modern portrayals of him in manga and television.
DeleteBut yeah, it's definitely still an open question for the Amatsukami. They need a whole realm of work done on them, poor guys.
It's really hard to escape those modern portrayals though. When you see them with any frequency, you build up an emotional reaction to them. You just keep on reacting that same way no matter what might have been done in the past.
DeleteWouldn't Death be better saved for a future Maya update with Xibalba being what it is? And is Raiden really comical in myths, or is that RAW baggage?
ReplyDeleteAlso, I humbly submit my reccomendation for a Pohjola as a
Frost Titanrealm headed by Louhi.
The Maya supplement will be coming out with Xibalba as Titanrealm of Death, actually. But I don't know yet how we're planning to reconcile them with everybody else's rotting bad guys, so the final configuration is still up in the air. As always, the new pantheon supplements are designed for the RAW and may be changed in our final edits. :)
DeletePartly RAW baggage, partly modern pop culture. Raiden as a god is not at all comical, but pop culture in the last few decades tends to paint him as bumbling and whitewash over his nastiness, and Scion follows that mold.
Can't wait for the supplement!
DeleteI still have my fingers crossed that the Australians will still be on top when it comes out. They seem to have really lost their lead lately. For that matter, I know I've aired similar suspicions before, but isn't the total no. of votes lower than it used to be?
I noticed that this morning, actually! I would have sworn there were more than 300 votes on that poll, and it was back in the 290s this morning. I wonder if Blogger's polling app is pulling some kind of shenanigans. I've also noticed the other polls looking like they may have shifted back to earlier configurations, too.
DeleteWhat happened to Crom Cruach and the fomorians? I thought they were the perfect antagonists for the Tuatha! If not, could you say something about the "antagonistcness" of water or storms to the Sons of Danu based on your knowledge of mythology?
ReplyDeleteA few things! Crom Cruach could definitely be a Titan, but his portrayal in Companion is a complete mess. Also, he has literally nothing to do with the Fomorians. Also also, he's completely separate from the Tuatha - they have no contact with him whatsoever, no mythology in common and nothing to be antagonists over. You can come up with meta reasons for Crom to be angry with them - the easiest is that their religion came in and largely supplanted his worship in Ireland, which is probably true - but it's pretty thin to try to make him their Great Ancestral Enemy.
DeleteHonestly, if we're going to have anyone leading the Fomorians against the Tuatha, it should be Balor and Bres. But there are problems figuring out what Titanrealm they should represent, so there are a lot of options on the table.
I'm still hoping Domnu will make an appearance.
DeleteI've researched a bit and found that the Fomorians are considered pirates by some historians and there is a story of Cú Cuchulainn who shows a Fomorian coming from the sea. But I'm not very good at research, so, if it isn't asking too much could you tell some more stories or sources of it which tells about the Fomorians and their seafaring tales?
DeleteThat's about all of it, to tell the truth. There's nothing very specific, just some offhand mentions that they were accomplished sailors and fishermen. That's where the general water associations come from, but they're not very strong from where we're sitting.
DeleteHonestly.. I just wanna think that they are part of War and whomever the titan of war could be. But thats me trying to simplify the surface value and not look deeper right now. lol.
DeleteActually, War might be a nice fit for the Tuatha...I mean, isn't the biggest problem in Irish mythology that people keep coming to the Emerald Isle and try and conquer it? All the dead Tuatha literally died on the battlefield, didn't they? And while War isn't exactly a force of Nature, it is definitely a fundamental underpinning of the cosmos, so I'd say it could probably have a Titanrealm (Pakiy already exists as something similar as it is).
DeleteI don't think we should call it War though. Cause War is more of a human invention. I think it should be more along the lines of Conflict. Like the Titan of Conflict. That way, it includes War, trying to get a mate, Inner Conflict(like PTSD or other stuff on 'Should I have done that.'), criminal activities and such like that. We could branch out and saw its the Titans of Justice and War, but that may be a stretch. I don't know, what do you think Samudra and Anne?
DeleteAnne would be the better one to judge, since she's the writer, but I kinda do like Conflict! I mean, the Justice Titanrealm is technically called the Titanrealm of Order. Plus, if Muspelheim can have Hestia, the Conflict Titanrealm can definitely have space for all sorts of Avatars.
DeleteAlso, this just occured to me in light of Terriblyuncreative's uniting efforts below: if the Tuatha get Conflict, Water and Chaos are both open. Whichever one the Shen get, Iluyanka (did I spell that right Anne?) can helm the other once the Hittites get written up! In fact, maybe the reason Hittite Gods get lost all the time is because Iluyanka dropped a Titan level Labyrinthine Lingering on them? :D
Ahaha, I love it. They're not incompetent, they're just really confused and nobody has Psychopomp.
DeleteI like the idea of Chaos for the Chinese pantheon, but Hundun strikes me as dull and boring. It doesn't bring up the sheer instinctual terror that something like Apep and Surtur can inspire. It's a shame that the Nine-Tailed Fox doesn't possess the cosmic oomph needed to be a Titan, though I suppose she'd still make for a fun antagonist for demigods in a social-oriented game.
ReplyDeleteSpeaking of which, isn't Balor also a good alternative to Lir? I mean, sure, Grandpa Fomorian is dead, but it's not as though that's stopping the Tuatha de Danann. The main problem that I can see is connecting Balor and thus the Fomorians to one of the Greater Titans.
On a related note, is the concept of Impurity/Corruption/Spiritual Pollution universal enough to serve as a Greater Titan? If so, might that be acceptable as an alternate home for Izanami, even if Death is a better fit?
Plus, the story of Hundun is just tragedy.
DeleteBalor is also on the table as a possible lead Titan Avatar against the Tuatha. Many possibilities - they're nowhere near done at the moment. (And you're right, it's hard to connect the Fomorians firmly to any one Titanrealm.)
Impurity is definitely strongly linked to death in Japanese theology. A good avenue to explore!
I like the ideas, honestly I do. But I think that maybe some pantheons may need to learn to share with the titans. I see the Japanese dealing more with Izanami then anything else first off. She wants to kill everything... That alone cries titanic, but I think she is a better fit for the Japanese then Raiden. Its not me going off on the modern take on him being comical, cause actually I have never seen that. I think. Anyways, it seems more prevalent that Izanami be the main force against Japan.
ReplyDeleteThe Bogovi is in a tough spot for me. I do think that it should be creation, but for some reason it just.. It doesn't sum it all up for me for some reason. So I think I'll skip this one until I know better. lol.
The Shen and the Tuatha. This is where i get hung up on the most. Hundun does not scream to me baddest of the bad. He seems more of a lesser Avatar that would be controlled by the others a little more. Gonggong on the other hand is a BEAST! Honestly, I can see him taking charge and leading the fight over the Shen. But then I go down the list to Lir. I honestly do not know him well enough as a conjuror of storms, I do know in Ireland they can be prevalent, but I think its more of the ocean aspect.. Honestly, I am split because these both are water. My gut says go with Gonggong as the lead in water and put Lir as a Storm Titan that controls the seas as well. But then I think to myself, 'Is that plausible at all or I am just grasping at straws?'
Thats my thoughts on this, lol. I can see with this how people can go mad. I'm sure you'll come out of it alive, though sane on the other hand is a different story.
I think it may be inevitable, down the road, for Titanrealms to have some overlap. We're working with it as we go, though, since we don't have a lot of stuff nailed down yet.
DeleteOne reason that I prefer Izanami to Raiden is that I believe it to be a richer tale to tell. There are a lot more opportunities for divided loyalties and mixed feelings among the Amatsukami, though that might be because I'm a complete and utter sucker for a family drama.
DeleteAdmittedly, I think I remembering reading that Raiden is one of Izanami's children, but I suspect it's a lot more gut-churning for Susano-o to go fight mom than go oni-smashing.
Hmm, you know, I've never heard of Raijin as a son of Izanami. In fact, I don't know of any parentage for the two storm demons. They're just sort of out there, being jerks. Am I missing something somewhere?
DeleteAfter some brief Googling, there seems to be a claim that the Kojiki mentions Izanami birthing a number of thunder kami. I can't speak more about this, since I don't remember where I got the impression from.
DeleteYou are all forgetting that not only despite her promise to kill humanity but because of it, Izanami is the "goddess" of death and the underworld. She is not a titan because she as an essential part of the world order representing death. She may hate her pantheon and husband, but she is still a goddess with a divine function to fill. If you do make her a titan then you will have to make Izanagi a sky titan, perhaps taking the place of the dead Oreanus as the titan of calm skies.
DeleteHaving a role in the divine order doesn't mean that someone can't be antagonistic to the rest of the pantheon. Angra Mainyu is responsible for lies and other unpleasant things, but he's still a Titan in Scion.
DeleteFurthermore, Izanagi is a good candidate for one of the Titans that aren't all that antagonistic to their pantheons. He doesn't have a lot of solid associations and he doesn't do much after escaping Izanami.
Hmm... that mention in the Kojiki might be where the idea comes from, then.
DeleteA lot of Titans are actually gods and goddesses; in fact, they outnumber the ones like Apep or Angra Mainyu who are just monsters. They're usually much more cosmic and unapproachable sorts of gods, but the religions they come from, with the exception of the Greeks, didn't think of folks like Coyolxauhqui or Kagutsuchi as a separate kind of being. And even the Greeks thought of the Titans as gods, even to the point of worshiping many of them - just an older and antagonistic generation of them.
Both Izanami and Izanagi will need a lot of looking over to decide if they should stay playable or go Titan.
With the new season of Game of Thrones having just come out, I somehow find it very fitting that the original 'Mother of Dragons' is, along with Maya/Druj the only Titan who's basically fixed.
ReplyDeleteAs for the others, am I the only one who'd prefer Raiden over Izanami for the Amatsukami?
As for the Bogovi, I'm tempted to go with Sun just because I too cannot think of any culture in the world that treats Light as an antagonist. But if I were being honest, Creation is better fit...the Bogovi HATE Legendary influence in the World...what bigger example of that than the Titan that wants to rebuild the world from scratch?
Totally in favour of Pestilence for the Orisha.
The problem for me really comes down with the Shen and Tuatha...Water just seems so perfect for the both of them!
Though if I had to choose I'd give it to the Shen because of the major Water antagonists of the Tuatha, Lir never struck me as very antagonistic, and Domnu by your own admission doesn't do much. What they'd have in place of that though...no idea!
As excited as I am for the Titans, I so do not envy you guys right now.
Izanami is just a much more touching and personal story than Raiden. Izanami is a story of tragedy and rejection. Meanwhile, Raiden is essentially just a terrifying asshole.
DeleteThe only other culture I can think of where the sun was antagonistic was the Tuatha De Danann, and Lugh took care of that by summoning clouds to protect the land from the scorching rays of the sun and finally struck down the sun with a slingshot.
There is also the incident where the Ten Suns chose to rise on the same day in Chinese mythology. Of course, it reads more like a intra-pantheon conflict than a Titanic incident, since Hou Yi killed nine of the ten and the tenth returned to the way that it's supposed to be.
DeleteThat she has a touching personal story is precisely WHY I'd like for Izanami to stay a Goddess. Call me prejudiced but I have far greater dislike for Izanagi, the dude who essentially saw his girlfriend without her make up on and not only decided to dump her then and there but also took the time to pee outside her apartment!
DeleteAs for Raiden just being a terrifying asshole, well I'd have thought terrifying assholes who don't mind their Ps and Qs is exactly the kind of monster the August etiquette-loving Kami would hate the most.
I get where your coming from though, and I respect your vision :), but I think I'll always be in the 'Raiden for the Amatsukami' camp.
I've never really held much interest in each Titanrealm opposing a Pantheon. I get the themes - Norse hate Fire, sure - but what issue does Kagutsuchi have with Thor other than Surtr is Big Balls Boss of Muspelheim so there? The Titans fight the Gods. The Titanrealms are just where they live, to me. Kagutsuchi fights the Amatsukami from his Volcano Lair, and Surtr fights the Aesir from his Fortress. The fact that Muspelheim is simultaneously attacking every Pantheon is more reason for the Gods to team up.
ReplyDeleteNot that I grudge anyone who chooses to do the One Titanrealm-One Pantheon thing, I just feel like it doesn't make much sense.
None, I imagine. Kagutsuchi probably doesn't care about Thor at all as long as he isn't in front of him hitting him in the face. But Surtr's the dominant Avatar of Muspelheim, so Muspelheim in general is more or less pointed in the general direction of the Aesir. Doesn't mean the other Avatars are all doing the same thing Surtr is, or even paying attention to him. :)
DeleteThe idea that a bunch of random cross-cultural Titans would all be attacking a single pantheon wouldn't make much sense, you're right.
I guess, if I were to imagine it as anything, I'd imagine it as the other way around. Instead of the Titanrealm choosing to fight one Pantheon, the Pantheon chooses to focus on that specific Titanrealm, because it's either culturally opposed to it, or because their greatest enemy calls it his or her home. Erebus might have no issue with the Pesedjet, but the Pesedjet have issue with Apep before they have issue with Heqet over in Ourea, so they choose to focus all their might against Darkness over Fertility. Or perhaps Apep's rage against the Pesedjet is so much stronger than any of the Darkness Avatars' against any of their respective pantheons, and that is pulling Darkness towards the Pesedjet.
DeleteDifferent theories. I just find the idea of a "Dominant Avatar" kind of a weird carry over from RAW.
When we say "dominant Avatar", we never mean that he's the boss of the other ones. So it's not like Apep can make Erebus fight the Pesedjet for him. He can't really make Erebus do anything unless he wants to go try to physically overpower him, and ain't nobody got time for that.
DeleteIt's more that different cultures have different concepts that are most opposed or dangerous to them, and consequently their conception of the Big Bad Daddy of that concept is probably stronger than that of a culture that doesn't care quite as much. Everyone's afraid of unfettered fire, but they aren't quite as afraid of it as the Aesir are of Surtr who's slated to murder them all, so Surtr is consequently more "dominant" in the realm than most of the other Avatars.
So wait, you're not having the Devas and Yazata both oppose the titanrealm of illusion now?
ReplyDeleteI believe I remember reading that the Devas and the Yazata might know the same Greater Titan under different names the last time it came up.
DeleteIt is. The Devas view it as the Titanrealm of Illusion, the Yazatas view it as the Titanrealm of Lies. Really the same conceptual thing.
DeleteYep. They'll probably think they have different opponents - in fact, each other - but in reality be mostly dealing with the same entities. Illusions and lies are tricksy that way.
DeleteEarth could potentially be the Apu's opponent. Moreso if Pachacamac were a Titan. Kon's got elements of shaping Earth, but he's more of a rain-storm figure than a dedicated earth deity. Definitely fits more in a Sky/Water/Chaos Titan than Earth. But if you made a stretch...
ReplyDeleteDem poor Apu. I want them on the site proper so bad, but Asia is in such poor shape I don't know if they'll make it any time soon.
DeleteI know you had Pestilence/Shopona in mind as opponent of the Orisha from the beginning. But to me, the whole concept seems a bit too ... wobbly compared to the others. Of course illness was feared, but I thought the Titans where not only about fears, but about primordial cosmic powers that where once creative (and can still be), but, as the creation is completed, are now more destructive. They are supposed to be the stuff the world is made of. Thus my choice/recommendation would be Earth opposing the Orisha with Onile/Nana Buruku as dominant Avatar. The whole concept of evil is called Aiye in Yoruba, a word that means "Earth" or "World". Its tightly connected o the Aje (and less so to the Ajogun) the greatest supernatural fears of this people. And Onile herself seems to quarrel with old Olodumare relatively regularly (mostly about who's older and then there was that rat). Plus, she is sometimes called Shopona's mother (who, as "King of the Earth's Surface", to use one of his epithets) could also be a Earth Avatar, maybe personifiyng the dirts of Earth as source of diseases.
DeleteShopona could rule a realm that encompasses the Health Purview as a whole, with the Healing Titans like Rahmay sitting it out like Hestia over in Muspelheim.
DeleteAlso, I thought Nana Buluku was Dahomey, not Yoruba. Not arguing, just confused and asking for clarification.
I do like the idea of Earth for the Orisha though, for the simple reason that I cannot think of any culture that saw the Earth as an evil force. Earth monsters get killed all the time, but they've always struck me as necessary sacrifices, not evil beasts.
Hell, Earth for the Orisha would free up Pestilence and Rot and stuff like that for Izanami, while pure Death could be saved up for the Maya!
DeleteThere's no rule that Titans have to be forces that were creative, once or ever. Those like Apep and Surtr certainly never were, and I don't think anyone's going to try to argue either that they aren't Titans or that they contributed importantly to the building of the world. Many Titans have creative backgrounds because they're super old and primordial and that's usually the time frame when things were created, but it's not a requirement for the job.
DeleteThe culture I know of that has Earth as its big bogey is the Tibetan indigenous religion (the one that predated/became fused with Buddhism). They have a concept that the earth is a giant demon that might get up and destroy everything at any moment, and consider that mountains are pegs placed there by the gods to hold it down. Lots of rituals involving creating temples and ceremonial knives to also try to help the holding-it-down efforts. But I don't know if/when Tibet will be joining us. :)
@ Anne: I meant Titan Realms or rather the concepts they personify being cosmic forces. The individual Avatars have of course their own roles to play, I know that. What I meant was more that Pestilence seemed to have the same faults to me you critisized in Vritra/Drought (not saying you weren't right about that). Not cosmic enough and so on.
DeleteAnd regarding Tibet: It's of course your decision to make, but it seems questionable to me to "save" such an important concept as Earth for a pantheon about which you don't even know *if* you'll do it.
@ Samudra: You're right about that, I just used her name because she is better known and their roles overlap so strongly they are treated as the same in Santeria etc. Then again all those Earth Mothers are vaguely similar. Promise to be more careful in the future.
Oh, I wasn't necessarily saying Earth is being "saved", just that the Tibetans are the culture that comes to mind when talking about religions that have the earth as their big bad guy. I don't know yet what we'll end up doing with Earth.
DeleteI'm finding your Earth basis for the Orisha pretty sketchy, to be honest - I haven't noticed any particular fear or demonization of the earth, and the references to aje I've always seen translated as "children of the world", not earth, implying they're not from the divine. It's worth looking into, though.
@ Anon: Thanks for the clear up. I hadn't actually heard of Onile before, so my mind kinda skipped her and went directly to Nana Buluku.
Delete@ Anne: Damn, now I want the Tibetans! I swear, next time I have to vote for the new pantheon my head is going to explode.
I call her Onile because it is so pleasantly short, although it actually took me some time to find that name. She is more commonly called Olofin Aiye, "Lady of Earth". You'll probably find her easier to look up under that name.
Delete@Anne: You're probably right. Earth Mothers abound (Gaia, Danu, Nashjeii Asdzau, half the Aztec Pantheon ) and many of them are rather ambigious. But you will admit that Shopona does have heavy Earth associations (Idowu calls him the King of Earth whom the heavenly Orisha have to respect when interacting with his relam, if I recall correctly). And Pestilence just seems equally sketchy to me, because it is, as I already have said, a very good ideological fit, but rather weak as a cosmic force compared to such concepts as e.g. Fire, Chaos, Death and, well, Earth. Who would you suggest as Shopona's fellow Avatars? The major number of disease gods are at least partially protective and thus probably not very Titanic.
I'd argue that sickness/plague/pestilence is definitely a big force in world mythology; it's not "cosmic" in the general sense of planets-and-building-blocks, but it is universally feared and combated by gods across different cultures. Whether or not it's the best fit for the Orisha, it's definitely worthy of being its own Titanrealm for somebody somewhere along the line.
DeleteThen who *would* those other Avatars of Pestilence be that are battled all over the world? Because as I pointed out above, I just can't think of any comparable deities of disease. Shopona is the only god I can think of that doens't have disease as more or less a side-thing like Apollon, Artemis or Resheph do.
DeleteI'm afraid we don't have a list for you - like I said, it's something we're not working on yet and haven't done a true deep dive on. Off the top of my head, in addition to Shapona/Babalue Aye there are a few deevs in Persia associated with sickness and disease (I want to say Uta is one of them?), Shitala's an easy add from Hindu myth, and if we decide to treat Chalchiuhtotolin as an individual in his own right, he'd be a place to look as well.
DeleteWe haven't done the research on those or possible others yet and won't until we have a chance to move off Industry and onto a Titan project, though, so I really can't give you much that's in-depth. Sorry!
I tend to judge a Titanrealm on its compatibility with a purview. After all, the purviews and their boons are the building blocks of mythology wielded by the Gods and Titans. And I always envisioned the Yoruba Pestilence Titan as being the Titan of Health. What's not cosmic about that?
Delete(When it comes to this discussed Titan of Eternity, which I really do think is a cool idea, I find myself thinking Prophecy is the only Purview that really goes along with it, but since Prophecy-Mystery-Magic are supposed to all be Fate and not individual purviews, I'm at a loss.)
Side question for Anne: I know you made Asherah and Rahmay Goddesses in the Elohim supplement, but would you consider it acceptable to treat them as Titans? I was actually surprised at the fact that, as written, El is the only Titan the Elohim have to contend with! Are they really that short of antagonist material?
ReplyDeleteThey kind of are, actually! It's the lack of material on them that does it. I think it's very easy to make Rahmay (and her kids, Shahar and Shalim, if you want) into Titans, since they don't do much, are ancient and cosmic and have sort of frightening connotations. Asherah did have a thriving cult, but you could make that leap, too, particularly if you wanted to write some plot about her supposed links to Yahweh.
DeleteI've actually been pondering this kind of thing a bit lately - I'm trying to make use of both the fine work that you've done with the Apu, Bogovi, Elohim, Annunaki, and Alilah (and upcoming K'uh) and the fine work that you've done on revisions for the core pantheons. Do you have any recommendations for integrating the "written-for-RAW" GBN pantheons with the "revised by GBN" core pantheons?
ReplyDeleteThe problem that I'm running into is not that there aren't enough pantheons (and I want to use ALL of them) - it's that there aren't enough Titans to use as Worthy Foes. Here's what I'm currently working with:
Pesedjet - Darkness
Dodekatheon - Nature
Aesir - Fire
Teotl - Stars
Orisha - Pestilence
Tuatha - Water
Shen - Chaos
Devas - Illusion
Yazata - Lies*
Bogovi - Creation
Apu - Destruction
Alilah - Unity
Annuna - Beasts
Elohim - Order
Lha - Earth**
Atua - Storm***
Amatsukami - Death
K'uh - also Death!
So - is there an appropriate antagonist for either the Amatsukami or the K'uh that doesn't step on the toes of any of the above pantheons? Or should I just (gasp!) not use one of them? Death can't be the designated Worthy Foe for both of them; that means that either the Titans of Death are somehow more infinite than the other infintite expressions of the universe's fundamental forces, or that the Amatsukami and K'uh are somehow less cool than the other pantheons since it takes both of them to fight one Titanrealm.
* I've got a half-baked idea to go with Zrvan as a Titan of Eternity as the Yazata antagonist - so, all the evil and falseness in the world is supposed to be purged when Frashokereti rolls around, right? Ahriman, heading up the Titan of Eternity, wants to keep the world eternally as it is, with all of the evil and chaos in it intact, though this kind of inverts the Titan/God dynamic for the Yazatas so I'm not totally sure.
** Yeah, I'll call it - I'm TOTALLY saving Earth for the Tibetans (not that I've gotten much work done on that particular project lately. Cursed graduate school).
*** The Maori are even farther off of my radar than the Tibetans, but Storm, headed up by Tawhirimatea, seems to me to be the perfect antagonist for them as he was the one who got all up in arms about his brothers separating Rangi and Papa. I could see a case for Rangi and Papa, as Titans of Night, being cast as the primary antagonists for the Atua, but then we either have the same problem with the Teotl as the Amatsukami and the K'uh have with Death, or we have the problem of trying to create a Titan of Night that does stuff that Tamoanchan and/or Keku aren't already doing.
Thumbs Up on the hard work!
DeleteWere still missing a pantheon to hate the Light Titan though.
Poor Light Titan. Everyone else got invited to the war party and they just have to sit at home and be sad about it.
DeleteYeah, we're working on that integration ourselves as we go with the Titans. It's no secret that because the pantheon supplements are written for RAW, they don't always match up to what we're doing ourselves (though we still try to make them awesome, of course); we're still in the process of working on all of that. I don't have any good suggestions because we're still working on it ourselves.
Sorry. :(
We also don't appear to have an opponent for Frost, but I'd like to suggest my personal fantasy for a Louhi helmed Pohjola for the Finns unless someone else could think of a better pantheon for it, or a better antagonist for the Finns.
DeleteI've also heard it suggested that some of the Native North American religions might have a Frost Titanrealm as their main pain in the ass. Finland's also a possibility, though!
DeleteI've been thinking...even if you used Kyle's Conflict suggestion above, which would wrap up the Tuatha, Shen and Hittites, we'd still fall short of Titanrealms.
DeleteTaking that, and Terriblyuncreative's work, we have the Apu (since Destruction and Conflict kinda seem redundant), Amatsukami, K'uh, Inuit, Australians, Finns and Welsh as pantheons without Realms. Seven in all (not even going into people who're not on the poll like the various Native American pantheons, or the Mongolian one etc.).
We have Death, Frost, Guardian and Sun as APPs without Realms (and Guardian should probably be with Justice in Order). We have a potential Titanrealm of Eternity. We have a Titanrealm of Fate. That's six at most, and I'm not even going into the logistical nightmare of trying to match them up to the pantheons.
Unless we come up with new Cosmic Fundamentals of the Universe (like, say, Mind), and ones we can match up to those pantheons at that...I repeat, I am so not jealous of you guys right now.
It seems simplest to repeat. There are a lot more cultures than there are big cosmic constants, meaning that chances are good that core terrors are going to repeat. Besides, Apep assaulting Ra doesn't mean that Erebus is fighting alongside him.
DeleteIt's inevitable that if we try to do one Titanrealm = one purview, we'll run out really quickly. There are hundreds of pantheons in the world that might be used for Scion, and certainly nowhere near enough Phenomenal Cosmic Powers that everyone will be able to have their own. We've used the model for our new pantheon releases largely because we want those to be compatible with the RAW for those who are still using it or something close to it.
DeletePast that, though, if there are enough Titanrealms, there will either need to be overlaps or Titanrealms of increasingly abstract concepts that are not necessarily tied to any one purview. It's math.
Ahh, yes, I believe Anne might be referencing the Iroquois Pantheon I've talked to her about a bit. So long as the system of one Titanrealm opposing one Pantheon is being followed the Notwais'ha would absolutely need to be opposed by the Titanrealm of Winter. It's even a place mentioned in Iroquois mythology, a Titan Avatar once tried to build a bridge to connect a mortal world with a land of famine (famine being something strongly tied to winter in Iroquois mythology).
DeleteWinter leads to a lack of food, which in Iroquois mythology often leads to temptations of cannibalism...and it really hits the fan should someone succumb to that temptation.
My knowledge of Native American mythology is functionally non existent, but my enthusiasm is boundless. I'd love to finally see a proper Native American pantheon for Scion!
DeleteIf I might ask, is Iroquois mythology the source of the Wendigo legends? Also, how do you pronounce Notwais'ha?
As for my dearly beloved Finns, maybe they could then have a Guardian Titanrealm? Though I'm not sure how that would work really, beyond the fact that Louhi seems to love having beautiful things and Guarding the shit out of them (and I still think Louhi should be their main antagonist).
The Wendigo isn't from Iroquois mythology, no, I'm fairly certain it originates from Algonquin myths. Though it is very representative of the kind of Titanspawn I'd envision that Titanrealm producing. And the Iroquois do have their own cannibalistic wintry giant called the Jokaoh, which means stonecoat. Same general idea, people who get hungry and cannibalize during the winter turn into them and continue to desire human flesh. But they also get a rocky skin that was said to be impervious to arrows and such. Though the stone coating could be removed by pouring melted deer fat on it.
DeleteAs for the pronunciation, your guess is probably as good as mine. I've read a bunch of books on Iroquois mythology but I can hardly claim to be very knowledgeable when it comes to the language. That said, I've always imagined that it's pronounced NŌ-twās-hä.
What about Corruption or Pollution as the Kami's problem that seems more central to Shinto at least with death/disease/etc all being impurities that come from the outside and that can corrupt others.
ReplyDeleteYou've mentioned it before. Don't worry, it's still under advisement. :)
DeleteAnd it wouldn't have to just be a Kami thing I mean the whole Miasma concept in Greek myths seems to show a certain universality to make it a full on Titanrealm.
Delete