We knew this question was coming because of comments on other posts, but damn, it is a big and meaty one. This is maybe something that should actually get a page in our House Rules section someday, the same as Natures, but for now we'll do a quick and moderately thorough run through it.
Virtues are the manifestation of the most strongly-held and important values of your pantheon (and, by extension, the ancient culture that worshiped them). When you become a Scion, you gain these Virtues as soon as your divine blood awakens in your veins, connecting you to the morals of your pantheon as well as their powers; if you come from a pantheon that cherishes courageous charging into the breach and refusal to back down in the face of overwhelming power, you'll have some Courage, or if you come from a pantheon that believes that the rule of law and government is all that keeps the world from plunging into chaotic despair, you'll have some Order. Some Scions have slightly different Virtues from their pantheon, but the more different their values, the more difficult it is to access that pantheon's secret powers (so their PSP costs more XP to buy).
There are twelve core Virtues: Conviction, Courage, Duty, Endurance, Expression, Harmony, Intellect, Loyalty, Order, Piety, Valor and Vengeance. Each Virtue a Scion (or god) possesses shapes what they do, how they react to events and what their divine personality will eventually become. It would take longer than we have today to talk about all the minutiae of what they do, but here's a quick bulleted list of what it means to have one of these Virtues and what happens when you try to act against them.
- Conviction. A pantheon with Conviction stands behind their beliefs, no matter what the cost or how compelling the argument against them. A Scion with Conviction knows certain truths about the world and himself and will always support them, regardless of the cost to himself. Conviction is the Virtue you see most often in action for people who believe zealously in a religion, support a political cause or are dedicated to a certain ideal above all others. To illustrate this mechanically, we ask Scions with Conviction to keep a list of the things that are their beliefs that Conviction applies to, which range anywhere from selfish (Shadan, who has "always get something out of every situation" as one of his convictions) to the antagonistic (Eztli, who has "Norsemen are evil and should be destroyed" as one of her convictions) to the noble and lofty (Faruza, who has "truth may never be hidden" as one of her convictions). Characters who attempt any action (or inaction - standing by can be just as bad, depending on the belief in question) against one of their Convictions must roll that Virtue; if they get too many successes or can't afford the Willpower to fight it, they enter Virtue Extremity and become insane zealots, mortified by their failure to uphold their beliefs and determined to do so at all costs. Note for STs: Some players aren't sure what their character's convictions are, especially at the beginning of the game, or try to game the system by having very few or very narrow ones. In those cases, keep your own list of their beliefs, based on what they do in roleplaying and what they claim happened in their backstories, and make them roll according to that. If they complain, help explain to them what Conviction is about again.
- Courage. A pantheon with Courage is utterly fearless and prizes individual bravery above all things, rewarding moxy and severely punishing or abhorring anything they perceive as cowardice. A Scion with Courage never shies away from danger, avoids problems or lets someone else take point in order to stay safer herself. Courage is the Virtue you most often see in action for berserker soldiers, protesters who refuse to move when they are punished for their actions or scientists throwing themselves into toxic environments to finish their experiments. Courage is pretty easy to run from a Storyteller's standpoint; if there are dangerous monsters, the lady with Courage needs to fight them, and if a player ever says "Let's not do that because it's dangerous/there's a safer way/I'm afraid X might happen", remind them that they're directly acting against their Courage to not dive in headfirst. Characters who attempt to avoid taking courageous actions or who display cowardice in any way may hit Virtue Extremity and become ravening, insane berserkers, hurling themselves at everything and anything in their paths, determined to make up for their failure by destroying any potential challenge near them. Note for STs: Courage is very straightforward; it doesn't care whether something is a good idea, only if it's a dangerous one. Players are prone to arguing that they shouldn't have to do things that might get them killed, but that's a good time to remind them that that's the exact opposite of Courage. If you're worrying about getting killed, you're doing Courage wrong.
- Duty. A pantheon with Duty is utterly dedicated to the idea that each individual has personal responsibilities that they must fulfill, no matter what the odds arrayed against them, for the greater good. A Scion with Duty has a job to do and does it until the bitter end, always follows through on things that are required of her and never tries to pass her duties off to someone else or do only the bare minimum to get by. Duty is the Virtue you most often see in action when a captain goes down with the ship, a bodyguard takes a bullet or a spy who knows she's about to be discovered manages to get a last desperate message home to her superiors. Characters with Duty can't disobey orders, be lazy or slapdash in their responsibilities, put their own desires before their duties or make decisions to follow a course other than the one they know they're supposed to be working toward. If they do any of those things and enter Virtue Extremity, they become self-destructive psychopaths who pursue completing their duties so stringently and exclusively that they can and will immolate themselves in the process, and if they succeed will turn to doing the same thing with their next responsibility. Note for STs: While we don't do a full list for Duty the way we do for Conviction and Vengeance, you'll still need to know what a character considers her duty to know when you should make her roll. Some are easy - instructions from divine parents or the Scion's pantheon, for example, or things that she's told to do by commanders or employers - but others may be more freeform, such as Eztli's belief that it is her Duty to defend her husband because her society would require it of her. If you're having trouble knowing what a character considers her Duty, a list can't hurt.
- Endurance. A pantheon with Endurance believes that stoicism, steadfastness and unmoving dedication are among the most important ideas in the universe. A Scion with Endurance eschews meaningless pleasures, refuses to rest and weathers even the most difficult situations with the stony indifference of a mountainside. Endurance is the Virtue you most often see in action for holy men who fast and meditate for decades at a time, exhausted travelers who forge on on their hands and knees if they have to until they reach their destination, or torture victims who remain tight-lipped and uncommunicative no matter what horrors are visited on them. From a mechanical perspective, we often make players roll against their Endurance if they're trying to rest (including sleeping to heal wounds), wait around or become idle for any reason at any time, or refuse to do something because they think it might take too long or be too difficult. Characters who attempt to rest or ease their ways too much may hit Virtue Extremity and become psychotically obsessed with their own ability to endure, dedicating themselves to finding the most painful and difficult ways to accomplish the task at hand and then performing them until they drop. Note for STs: Endurance is a big pain in the ass, especially for Heroes who sometimes really need to spend a night at a hotel to recover for the next day, but that's what the player's signing up for. Remind them that this isn't just weird insomnia; it's their need to be doing something, to be productive and active, like a genius scientist who only sleeps two hours a day to have more time to work on experiments or a supplier who knows he's ahead of schedule but still won't take a break in the name of getting those shipments there even one hour earlier.
- Expression. A pantheon with Expression values the creation, expression and presentation of the individual self, whether it's through passionate discussion or moving artwork. A Scion with Expression never holds back her true thoughts, appreciates the expressions of others no matter what they might contain and fights against censorship wherever she encounters it. Expression is the Virtue you most often see in action for street artists who make their mark in spite of the possible consequences, curators who collect and display art in all its forms or dissidents who stand up and speak out no matter how dangerous or inconvenient doing so might be. Scions have to roll their Expression any time they want to stifle someone else's form of expression, let someone else tell a story or explain something instead of themselves, destroy or damage any kind of artwork or fail to find a way around someone trying to silence them. If they do and hit Virtue Extremity, they become slaves to their insane need to create, finding ways to build and express as loudly and shockingly as possible, forcing everyone to pay attention to what they're doing and be shocked and affected by what they see. Note for STs: Expression's easy to forget about, but characters that have it need to be front and center, always expressing themselves, and they can never accept censorship or quiet retiring avoidance without upsetting their Virtue. Also keep in mind that any Scions doing large-scale property damage may have problems if any art, architecture or promising artists or speakers are damaged or in danger.
- Harmony. A pantheon with Harmony believes in the incredible importance of the balance of the universe, where everything must complement, oppose and support the rest of its environment or risk disastrous consequences. A Scion with Harmony preserves balance, fosters equality and never allows anything that threatens this delicate balancing act or might irrevocably change the natural order. Harmony is the Virtue you most often see in action for environmental conservationists, human rights activists and negotiating moderators who try to find a solution that helps both parties in need and society as a whole. We require Scions to roll their Harmony whenever anything seriously threatens or damages the natural balance, which includes when they don't work to prevent or alleviate environmental hazards such as pollution, extinction or deforestation, when they allow serious imbalances of human society such as slavery or cannibalism, or when they allow the divine to intrude too much into the world of the mortal or vice versa, most obviously by failing to remove Titanspawn who are loose in the World. If they hit Virtue Extremity, they become fanatically dedicated psychopaths who will do anything - including murdering, taking hostages or giving up their own lives - to make sure that whatever dangers to cosmic harmony are present are worked against and defeated. Note for STs: Worldly environmental concerns are easy, but the balance between mortal and divine is also a major issue for Scions. It's not good for the World to have divine or Titanic things in it too much, so Scions with Harmony need to prevent that from happening, and conversely mortals were never meant for the worlds of the divine and need to be kept away from them. When someone has the brilliant idea of just moving their entire mortal worshiper population to their Sanctum, it's always the person with Harmony who flips their shit and shuts that retirement plan down.
- Intellect. A pantheon with Intellect prizes intelligence, deep thinking, teaching and enlightenment, as well as making sure that all people have access to these things. A Scion with Intellect needs to learn and then share what she learns with others, and can't abide the destruction of knowledge or the willful continuance of ignorance. Intellect is the Virtue you most often see in action when teachers provide knowledge to others, preservationists prevent the loss of ancient knowledge and artifacts or enthusiastic students travel to faraway locations to find those elusive secrets. People with Intellect will run into problems if they fail to correct misinformation or stupidity in others around them, if they withhold information or enlightenment for any reason, if they allow knowledge to be destroyed or obscured or if they pass up opportunities to learn. If they do Virtue Extremity over one of those things, they become incapable of doing anything but analyzing and sorting through information and knowledge, unable to make any decisions or come up with any coherent ideas from the overload of internal thought. Note for STs: Intellect Extremity is the only one that is not active and does not involve a Scion doing something - rather, it prevents them from doing anything. If the asymmetry bothers you, consider instead having Extremity do something similar to the other Virtues, causing Scions to go batshit and start pursuing knowledge, forcing others to learn and trailing destruction as they do so.
- Loyalty. A pantheon with Loyalty believes in the importance of comradeship and brotherhood as some of the highest and most admirable ideals in the universe. A Scion with Loyalty always has his friends' backs, never leaves a man behind and will go to the ends of the earth to help someone she respects. Loyalty is the Virtue you most often see in action when someone lets himself be used as the fall guy to keep a friend out of trouble, leaves home and family to help a friend in need or shields a comrade with her own body. Having Loyalty means never letting a comrade be hurt on your watch, always coming to their aid no matter how bad the situation or how much it's their fault, and never turning your back on them if they need something, even if it's painful for you personally. If a Scion with Loyalty goes into Virtue Extremity, he immediately becomes slavishly and uncontestedly loyal to his comrades, doing anything and everything they tell him to without complaint, incapable of refusing or arguing so long as he can do what is asked of him. Note for STs: This is one of the Virtues that players most often try to fudge, usually with some variation on "I don't like that guy, so I don't have to apply my Loyalty to him." You can have them keep a list of people Loyalty applies to if you want to, but the easy rule of thumb is that Loyalty should be active for A) anyone in their pantheon, B) any family member, and C) their bandmates, as well as anyone else they choose. Unless they have a good reason not to include that person - i.e., they have Vengeance or Conviction against a specific person - those categories should usually activate Loyalty. Loyalty doesn't care if the person is being a little shit right now or even actively campaigning against you; their bad behavior doesn't ever excuse you trying to turn on them or ignore them when they're in need.
- Order. A pantheon with Order upholds law, reason and the rule of authority over society, believing that there is a divine order to the universe that must be followed to avoid the destructive influence of Chaos. A Scion with Order follows laws, upholds authority, prevents crime and respects the chain of command, believing that the system is ultimately good and works to better the world. Order is the Virtue you most often see in action when vigilantes go out of their way to bring criminals to justice, the innocently accused go to trial knowing that they will be acquitted or those who know they have done wrong willingly accept the punishment bestowed on them. When Scions have Order, they find it difficult to disobey instructions from authority figures, break any laws (including stealing things, killing people, jaywalking or freeing slaves in societies where they're legal) or refuse to support a society's customs and laws, whether or not they agree with them. If they do go into Virtue Extremity, they will seek out, turn in and punish lawbreakers (including themselves) at any cost, becoming unstoppable vigilantes with zero tolerance. Note for STs: Order doesn't distinguish between the severity of a crime; all crimes are equally bad and unacceptable, so Scions are going to need to roll against their Order to allow littering or noise pollution as well as murder or assault. Order also applies to the actual law in the place that you happen to be, so the fact that something that isn't illegal at home doesn't mean that your Order can ignore it if it's illegal where it's happening right now. Scions get a pass if they don't realize something is illegal when it happens, but they'll still have to roll if they later discover it was illegal and fail to bring the perpetrator to justice, or wilfully avoid learning local laws for the express purpose of not knowing the rules. Also keep in mind that Order cares about the letter of the law, not the spirit; if you let someone off because you think they have extenuating circumstances or were screwed by an unfair law, you'll still need to roll your Order.
- Piety. A pantheon with Piety believes in their own importance as paramount - they are the most powerful, worthy and pivotal beings in the universe and they expect the respect due to them as a result. A Scion with Piety believes utterly in her pantheon and obeys its dictates and those of its individual gods without question, as well as spreading the respect and worship of them as far as he can. Piety is the Virtue you most often see in action when missionaries go into dangerous territory to preach their religion to new peoples, heroes commit atrocities they would normally abhor in order to make sure their pantheon is victorious or true believers allow themselves to be destroyed rather than recanting their beliefs. If a Scion doesn't do what he knows his pantheon wants, fails to tell others who don't know about them about all their glorious awesomeness, allows others to be misinformed or disrespectful of the gods of his pantheon or gives any other pantheon or religion more props, he's likely to trigger a Piety roll on himself. And if that Piety roll causes him to go into Virtue Extremity, he becomes so dedicated to his pantheon that he refuses to use his obviously superior talents for anyone else, leaving mortals, unbelievers and members of other pantheons to fend for themselves, even if they die. Note for STs: Piety is a directed Virtue, which means that it applies to a specific group of people, in this case your pantheon. If a Scion gains Piety during play from some source other than their pantheon - the Bogovi are critical offenders here - then that Piety is likely to be pointed toward the source they got it from, not their pantheon. Having Piety for a pantheon other than your own often leads to complicated and messy situations, but it can happen. For those having trouble differentiating Piety from Loyalty, think of Loyalty as supporting individuals to whom you are loyal, while Piety is supporting a group and religion to which you are faithful; they can overlap but don't always have to.
- Valor. A pantheon with Valor believes in fair play, even odds, protection of the weak and the glory that can only come from surmounting a true and equal challenge. A Scion with Valor never allows the weak to be overpowered by the strong, fights only under fair and equal circumstances and refuses to compromise her honor even when overwhelming odds are stacked against her. Valor is the Virtue you most often see in action when a fighter challenges an opponent to single combat, a policeman draws a criminal's fire to redirect him away from innocents or a referee enforces a handicap on an opponent with an unfair advantage. Valor rolls are triggered whenever a Scion cheats in a fight or backstabs someone from concealment, tries to walk away from a glorious combat, allows the abuse of the weak at the hands of the strong or kicks someone when they're down. If she goes into Virtue Extremity, she is so overcome by her dishonorable actions that she determines to wipe them away by fighting the first opponent of equal or greater strength she sees, and either defeating them in honorable combat or dying in the attempt. Note for STs: Valor not only governs the actions of the Scions that have it, it also causes them to try to force others in their band to follow its dictates. This means that a lot of strategies - killing an unconscious or paralyzed opponent, sneak attacking or attacking with greater numbers - will offend a Valorous Scion's sensibilities and consequently not work most of the time since they'll need to either sabotage them or risk going crazy. It doesn't matter how pragmatic or effective a strategy is; if it's not honorable straight-up combat, Valor's not okay with it. In mechanical terms, a higher-Legend person fighting a lower-Legend one is not a fair match even if it's single combat, nor are equal-Legend opponents evenly matched if one is a combat powerhouse and the other fragile, ill-equipped or already heavily injured. Several lower-Legend opponents on a single higher-Legend one can be a fair fight; use your judgment about what constitutes a fair matchup.
- Vengeance. A pantheon with Vengeance is dedicated to avenging any slight or injury done to them, exacting furious and instant justice against those who anger them. A Scion with Vengeance never forgets and never forgives, never lets a wrong against him go unredressed and refuses to lay a feud to rest until the bitter end. Vengeance is the Virtue you most often see in action when a dictator throws caution to the winds to keep attacking a hated enemy he's losing against, a scorned lover absconds with all his paramours worldly goods or a victim of assault hunts down his attacker and sells him out to a mob boss. Like people with Conviction, we require people with Vengeance to keep a list of those they most despise, and they can't pass up an opportunity to strike against them in some way whenever they have the chance, never showing mercy and always making sure they pay many times over for whatever they once did to anger them. If they fail to do this and go into Virtue Extremity, they immediately stop doing anything but trying to absolutely ruin the people they've sworn vengeance against, going to any lengths and refusing to focus on anything else to make sure that person gets what's coming to them. Note for STs: Like Conviction, Vengeance is a Virtue players try to cheat by putting as few people or groups of people on their list as possible, so make sure to call them out and make them include people who have committed serious sins against them (assaulted them, stolen their relics, utterly humiliated them in front of gods and so on), although they can occasionally let lesser sins slide by, particularly if they do something at the time to make sure their displeasure is known. Anyone a Scion channels their Vengeance against (whether in an attack, damage, attempt to use a power on, whatever) is automatically added to the Vengeance list. Also note that groups of people - for example, "fire giants" or "police officers" - are also fair game for Vengeance, and Scions should have some of these involved after a while, too. The best rule of thumb is that if an individual person is important, they can go on the Vengeance list singly; if they're not or they only represent some larger power, the group they belong to should go on the list instead.
That was the short version, you guys.
Hopefully that gives a pretty good, if not totally complete, vision of how Virtues work and what they do within a game. The flip side of Virtues is of course Virtue channeling - using your limited number of times per story you can call on the power of your Virtue to bolster a roll you make to perform an action. In those cases, you have to be able to justify to the Storyteller why you're using that Virtue right now; for example, if you're trying to build a robot and need to add to your roll, you might channel Expression because you're creating something new and amazing, Endurance because you're continuing to labor over a long and exhausting project or Duty if it's something you know your people need, but Harmony probably wouldn't be a good fit if the machine doesn't have anything in particular to do with aiding the natural balance of the universe. If you can overcome a Virtue for a scene - either by not rolling any successes on it or by paying Willpower to steel yourself against it temporarily - you can do things you normally wouldn't be able to, but you also still can't channel it against things that are inappropriate for it.
Virtues and their Extremities are a brilliant addition to the original Scion line because they are constantly evident in the stories of the gods and heroes of Legend; they charge into battle with roaring Courage, demand fair fights with honorable Valor, enforce divine justice with uncompromising Order or absolutely wreck their opponents' lives with destructive Vengeance. Scions are those same heroes and will become those same gods, and they have within them the potential to occasionally resist those values when they must, follow them when they can and go berserk about them if they're pushed too far. It's an awesome system and definitely one of our favorite things Scion does to tie modern heroes to the ancient epics.
I'm tired of typing now, but if you have questions about Virtues, hit us in the comments. Because whether or not a Virtue is rolled against for Extremity or appropriate for a channel is up to the final decision of the Storyteller, there will be variation in how different Virtues appear across different games, but we're happy to talk about generalizations anyway.
This post was so sorely needed. Now, follow-up questions!
ReplyDelete1. Speaking of the Bogovi...by the rules of Dva Dukhom, any Dodekatheon Scion in a Bogovi Scion's Band (assuming the Bogovi has one of the Dodec Virtues) seems pretty much destined to get saddled with EIGHT different Virtues. Is there any way this situation can be avoided short of bandmates taking extended vacations from each other? Because having to deal with eight virtues seems like it would be a nightmare.
2. What happens when Virtues conflict? Eztli's Conviction and Duty seem to directly contradict each other.
3. Can a Piety pantheon at least acknowledge that another pantheon is a worthy comrade, even if they'll never be worth as much as they are...basically, do Piety Gods ever demand other Gods worship them? Or do they just shake their heads going 'they really should', and leave it at that? Cause I foresee inter-pantheon problems arising.
Yeah... Bogovi Scions (and Bogovi gods) throw a wrench into Virtues in a big way. It's always safer for Bogovi Scions to just hang out with their own people, but they don't always guarantee an eight-Virtue spread for everyone else. Scions of pantheons who already share Virtues in common with the Bogovi will only gain a couple of new Virtues from prolonged exposure, or discover that their native Virtues are stronger than they were before hanging out with this Slavic dude all the time. A Pesedjet Scion, who already has three Virtues in common with the Bogovi, is only running the risk of gaining one foreign Virtue (Duty), and there are plenty with two in common, meaning they're only as Virtue-crazy as the Bogovi Scion himself is. The only pantheons with no Virtues in common are the Aesir, Dodekatheon and Orisha, so they're the only ones that run the full eight-Virtue risk.
DeleteIt's something that bands and Storytellers will probably have to deal with on a regular basis, one of the "perks" of Slavic Scions. Taking an extended vacation from one another will help bring that down, so games that do a lot of downtime will probably have an easier time than those that never stop the action. The d10 roll also makes it largely luck-based, so some bandmates may never get more than a dot or two of extra Virtues, while others may go batshit at the drop of a hat.
Good luck with the Bogovi is what I think I'm saying. They're amazing, but bending the world around them is part of what they do, and it's something their bands have to deal with.
Conflicting Virtues means that you have a bad day. Both Virtues want to act and neither is going to be satisfied with a brush-off; all rules are in effect for both at once. Usually, a Scion will have to decide which Virtue to run with that day and roll/spend Willpower to try to avoid the other; you can also try to shut both down, but that gets increasingly more dangerous since it's double the potential for extremity and at the very least is more Willpower costly. If your Expression is freaking out that the police are ripping up a painting to see if drugs are hidden in the frame, and your Order is freaking out at the thought of stopping them from fulfilling their duty, you're going to have to decide which is more important to you at that particular moment in time.
Geoff has recently been getting around Eztli's problems by just using Appearance knacks to make himself an Aztec, all the way down to the molecular level. Woody is left to fend for himself against the brunt of her displeasure.
Piety pantheons can acknowledge other pantheons as worthy or good people, but they can never admit that they're superior to them, or even equals. The Anunna know that the Anunna are the greatest things in the universe, period, so howsoever much they might like another pantheon, they know in their hearts that those guys are second-stringers. When the Elohim and Tuatha and Pesedjet and Bogovi all also know that with unshakeable security, you're right, politics can get very ugly if things aren't handled just right.
Gods are generally due worship from mortals, but not necessarily from other gods, so pantheons with Piety likely don't insist on outright worship from other deities. I'm sure they are always smugly satisfied when other gods have to ask for their help or acknowledge their superiority, however - as far as they're concerned, that's the natural order of things.
Wait...
DeleteGeoff changes himself to look as from somewhere else?
How's his pantheon, that he's supposed to be King over, feel about that?
I wonder if Fate will get into that, as well, since mortals will sooner or later notice he doesn't look like any of his fellow new-Aesir (or whatever they're calling themselves aftar Ragnarok)
Oh, he looks Aesir plenty of the time, too - it is his default appearance, after all. He just goes Mexican when he really needs to sweettalk Eztli or she's starting to ge tthat homicidal gleam in her eye.
DeleteHe's already known as a god of the Aztecs as well of the Aesir thanks to his heavy involvement over there, so Fate is definitely taking notice. ;)
Reports indicate that the Aesir are severly displeased by Geoff's insistence on Aztecing himself up now and then. Then again, the Aesir population currently consists of Woody and a few Jotunblut'd berserkers, so that's only to be expected.
DeleteAll 1 aesir is displeased...
DeleteWell he better start focusing on getting the Aesir back in order, then.
DeleteAt least, that's what I'm assuming he'll be doing.
Geoff's player can't get access to the site with his phone right now, but he emailed me this comment to add on his behalf:
Delete"I think it's funny that people are worried about Geoff rebuilding the Aesir and that he will have to control Sangria. He is the new All-Father and the God of Monogamous Love...who do you think will be giving birth to the new Aesir...?
As for his Appearance. He is the King of the Aesir and as such he looks like people would expect. White, blonde, bearded, blue-eyed, and heavily armored. However when he is visiting the in-laws or is visiting his Mexicali cults he "dressed appropriately."
Also, Woody can get over all the objections. That's his Queen."
Extremely useful and informative post Anne!
ReplyDeleteI invent the system....anne writes it down and gets all the credit....
Delete:P
DeleteShe has better PR than you do!
DeleteJesus! There should be a cut on this post :P
ReplyDeleteSeems kind of sad that Aesir and Bogovi can't really hang out, because if they do the Aesir will run the risk of getting a total of 8 Virtues.
ReplyDeleteSeems like something those pantheons would do their best to avoid having their Scions hanging around Bogovi Scions.
That may be why the Aesir and Bogovi are traditionally enemies. It's probably hard to get along with one another!
Deletewhy does that seem sad?
DeleteI imagine some players will probably feel like it's not worth it to play an Aesir Scion if there's a Bogovi Scion in the band, or vice versa.
Deletedo they hate awesome free virtues?
DeleteAnne got it.
DeleteConsidering Virtues can force you into bad situations (which is why you mention that some players try to avoid it), and having only 4 is hard to juggle as is...
Yeah, I'm not a fan of potentially having to get twice as many to keep track of.
Virtues are always double-edged swords, so those who like to play it safe might well avoid the Bogovi. But then again, more Virtues means more Virtue Channels, which means more opportunities for awesome success and pulling off the impossible. It'll really depend on the player's temperament, I think.
DeleteNot the same Anon from above, but I wouldn't want any virtues at all if I had the choice. So I would avoid the Bogovi like the plague.
DeleteYep, there's nothing wrong with that. You play the pantheons you enjoy, and leave the Slavs to others. :)
DeleteGot to say, Geoff has a better gig among the Aesir than among the Aztec - in one, he's just some random guy, but in another, he's the King. :P
ReplyDeleteHope he can handle the situation with bringing the Aesir back, without his wife going on a murderous rampage!
I dub myself king of my household! Is that better then being a senator ;)
DeleteKidding of course all my aesir lovers out there.
I didn't vote for you.
Deleteso how does the cowardly, retreating, treacherous Loki constantly get around three of the four aiser virtues? The only one he seems to constantly follow is expression, crowing about his latest scheme, or his fancy lying.
ReplyDeleteLoki is the most loyal mother fucker in the aesir.
DeleteHe also is incredibly brave...like super brave...im not sure where you get that he isnt these things.
It's an interesting question, because Loki's characterization as cowardly is more of a social invention than a feature of his actual deeds in mythology.
DeleteThink about it: Loki does occasionally run away from danger, but more often he's right up there handling it along with everybody else. He's in Utgarde-Loki's castle, performing deeds of derring-do with Thor. He's going off to find a weregild to free Odin and Hoenir instead of just escaping and not coming back for them. He's flying into Jotunheim to help Thor look for his lost hammer, he's going on undercover missions there where he could get his head bashed in at any moment, he's wrestling Heimdall for ninety bajillion days of protracted combat, and at Ragnarok he's leading the motherfucking fire giant charge out of Muspelheim. He's a lot of things, but cowardly usually isn't one of them. He does run away from the combined might of his entire pantheon trying to kill him after the flyting... but shit, wouldn't anybody?
The concept of Loki as a coward is likely a social construct based on the fact that he isn't a warrior; especially when contrasted with his usual companion, Thor, his powers over illusion and shapeshifting do not fit a traditional Norse model of manliness and boldness. Add that to the fact that he and Odin both have to deal with being tarred with that nasty Norse idea of womanliness and effeminance, Loki because of his turning into a mare to stop the building of the wall of Asgard and Odin for masquerading as a woman and using womens' magic, he ends up with a reputation as a coward and a weakling even though most of the time he doesn't really display those qualities.
Shorthand: Loki is a trickster, Norse culture automatically derides tricksterism as weak and cowardly, and therefore he has a reputation as a coward even though he tends to be involved in just as much fighting bullshit as the rest of the Aesir.
Also, John is right, Loki is exceptionally loyal. If he weren't so loyal to Odin and Thor, in fact, he'd probably have fewer problems; it's usually helping them that gets him into trouble, such as when he turns himself into a horse to bail Odin out of his bad business decisions, allows himself to be tortured by a goat to bail the pantheon out of dealing with Skadi's weregild, or gets stuck captured by giants or ransomed by dwarves when he's working for or with them. He does play pranks, but they're never truly injurious in most cases until Ragnarok. Baldur's the only dude that actually gets what looks like a full-on circumvention of the Loyalty Virtue, and scholars are still not sure why Loki would have done that or what the hell was going on there (so mess around with his motivations in your games, if you want!).
He's not really any more or less Endurance-y than most of the Aesir. He's no Thor, but he still has plenty of moments of "fuck you, I'm wrestling this guy for the next five months" and "fuck you, I'm eating this entire hall table full of meat in five seconds flat".
Interesting that you mention dangerous stealth missions for Courage. I always thought of Courage as being very in your face, which all things considered is probably stupid of me. Is it acceptable for a Courage Scion to sneak into an enemy camp to blow them up as it is for him to go in all guns blazing? Am I confusing Courage with Valour, which I'm assuming IS in your face?
DeleteIt would depend on your end game. If your plan is to sneak into the middle of an enemy camp, pop your machine guns and start screaming and fighting all comers, Courage is probably totally down with that. The sneaking is just a means to glorious combat, and the odds are good that you're going to get injured or killed in the process, even if you're awesome. If your plan is to sneak in, assassinate someone and then sneak back out while avoiding all other combats, you might have to roll your Courage to avoid starting a sweet battle royale with all these dangerous enemies instead of tiptoeing past them.
DeleteValor, yeah, always has to be in your face. You can sneak around with Valor, but you can't attack someone without announcing yourself and making it a fair contest, so people with Valor tend to make notoriously poor assassins.
Courage is the clearest-cut Virtue, but it still has its moments for ST interpretation. I would say I would let someone channel Courage while attempting to infiltrate a dangerous enemy's stronghold; it's a dangerous mission and you have a good chance of getting caught and/or killed, so you're being courageous to do it. Under other circumstances, though, I might not allow it if the Scion is obviously doing something calculated instead of courageous or has too many failsafes that make it less than threatening to him, and I might even make him roll his Courage if, for example, someone else attacked all these enemies and he didn't throw off the disguise and leap into the fray as well.
I don't know if the episode with svaldarfari is a good example of loyalty as it was loki who convinced the Aiser to the terms that got them into trouble, and they had to threaten him pretty hard to get him to distract the stallion. And what about the time when he abducted Idun? I guess that's more of going against duty than loyalty. I don't know about loyalty. He never seems to do something just because he want's to help the pantheon, there always seems to be someone threatening to bash his head in if he doesn't fix things, though I guess that could denote high loyalty that he takes so much shit from the other Aiser but still sides with them. Also his act of eating all that food seems more expression, doing something awesome just to look good and brag about it later. I also don't know about courage, as he always seems to be brave only when someone who can watch his back like Thor is around. He never shows courageous behavior when he's on his own. His courage and endurance seemed to go out the window when Skadi's father locked him in that trunk.
ReplyDeleteLoyalty: Loki never has to do any of those things. The only reason he is at any of these things, and not on the side of the giants the whole time, is his blood brothership and loyalty to odin.
DeleteThe foremost trickster on the planet is worried about getting his head bashed in? After the first time he gets threatened...why doesnt he leave forever? Loyalty
Also Im not sure anyone actually threatens loki, I could reread, but i dont think he is threatened for most things, he does them of his own free will.
Eating contest with Logi. Just because you feel its more like expression, doesnt make it also not seem like endurance. It seems like both(less expression imo)
Doing something even though that because of it, you'll be locked in the earth with painful poison dripping on you forever, thats courage.
I recall Loki giving up Idun out of fear - Thjazi threatened him with death and beat his legs with trees and stuff. But then again, it took threatening death to make him turn on her, and he went right back out and got her back again, so I'd say that was more a case of him spending to ignore his Loyalty in a single case in order to survive, not of him not having any.
DeleteLoki's got a lot of times he clearly doesn't have to be loyal but still is - the episode where he's freed and Odin and Hoenir remain prisoners comes to mind, since he could easily have gone home and never bothered again but instead went out to collect a bunch of treasure and ransom them back, none of which anyone forced him to do. And certainly nobody made him tie his balls to a goat and scream in pain until Skadi laughed to prevent her from claiming her weregild; that particular move was all his idea to help the pantheon, and I think we can all agree that tying your genitals to an animal to help your friends out is a pretty impressively loyal act.
Remember, too, that Loyalty is a continuum, not an absolute; he might have anywhere from one to five dots of it. We would assume he has quite a few, but different Storytellers might rule that he has whatever level of Loyalty they feel best illustrates his behavior in myths.
The original Scion books give Loki two dots of Loyalty, by the way. We'd be more inclined to adjust that up - the books tend to be very biased toward treating Loki as a straight villain instead of a complex trickster character - but I'm sure different games give him differing amounts.
I love these megaposts.
ReplyDeleteI never made a list of my characters' Convictions (probably should have, come to think of it). It really makes sense to define it clearly.
Thing about Conviction is, since it's about dedication to your beliefs, technically the tenants any other Virtue could fall into it. In the games I've played as Alan Lord, his individual Convictions (as opposed to the Pantheon's general beliefs) tended to fall within the jurisdictions of Harmony and Intellect. His current iteration has actually swapped out Courage and Duty for Harmony and Intellect, so that's kind of gilding the lilly.
What do you think of the idea that if two or more Virtues conflict on an action, you roll one against the other, and whichever gets more successes pulls you more? I tend to do that, especially when I, personally, can't decide between two awful choices (as Scion intends).
Heh, we were just talking about that re: Eztli the other day (Aztec Scions with Conviction, unite in your craziness)! She has a similar problem - most of her convictions can be traced back to Duty and Piety, which she's already rocking, so Conviction reinforces other Virtues as much as it does its own thing. But then again, there are Convictions that aren't covered by her other Virtues, so it's not totally superfluous or anything. We've been trying to encourage new Scions with the stat to choose things that are more personal and less covered by other Virtues, which has led to some fun times with people like Shadan who have to roll Conviction not to smoke all available opium.
DeleteOur players do that, too! I think it's a great way to make a Virtue decision if you're genuinely torn as a player on which to follow, but I wouldn't want to institutionalize it. For something as personal as a Virtue, I think there are times a player should be able to just make that call instead of having to rely on the whims of the dice (although that system totally makes just as much sense, so it's more personal preference than anything).
Making it standard shouldn't be a thing, but I like to do it, particularly when, no matter what, SOME Virtue is going to be pissed.
DeleteAnother idea: Just because two pantheons have the same Virtue (or one member of a pantheon has swapped out to that Virtue) doesn't mean they necessarily express it in the same way. For example, Alan's Harmony means that he's all about maintaining ecological balance, but as an Aztec, that manifests as him sacrificing people who upset said balance, and thanks to his massive Epic Intelligence, he looks upon humans as an invasive species of insect destroying a carefully maintained garden.
Now, most gods rocking Harmony aren't going to be on board with this, but this is in line with the Virtue. Someone's gotta die to keep the gears of the world turning, and mortals seem to be actively working against them. Plus, from his perspective, a human and a tiger are about equal in mental abilities, and there are about 7 billion humans to about 3,500 tigers, so obviously the life of a tiger is equal to about 2 million humans!
I recently ran a one-shot Scion game in which one of my players demonstrated Intellect Extremity in a way which made sense. The character was a History Professor at Cambridge, and the Cult of Aten mechanized one of the statues of Mithra (who in their religion is just one of the many 'Faces of the Sun') in the British Museum to kill the Scions. The Scion of Ares destroyed it pretty quickly, but it caused the History Professor to Intellect Extremity because, in his opinion, the Scion of Ares had defaced - DESTROYED - an ancient sculpture and a symbol of an ancient pantheon - so he spent a good five minutes just roleplaying out screaming at the Scion of Ares about history and learning and the value of that statue to human society.
ReplyDeleteUntil the Scion of Ares proved it wasn't even a real ancient statue, but just a robot. That calmed him down.
But I just thought the 'forcible lecture' made sense with the rest of them.
I agree - neat!
DeleteIf it was just "I'm going to rant at you" it might be too easy to ignore.
DeleteIf it is "I'm going to rant at you, and you are going to sit here and pay attention to my rant. If you stop paying attention to my rant, I am going to flip out and rant even more" then it would work great.
A question about Endurance: what counts as 'meaningless pleasure'? From the sounds of it the Norse Gods with their feasting and drinking should be in constant Endurance extremity, and I'm not sure the likes of Indra are doing any better. What if Sarasvati takes time off to compose a new raga? And how does Endurance gel with Ganesha's constant eating?
ReplyDeleteStuffing your face without stopping(via food or drink) falls well into endurance. As does dancing til you drop dead, or sexing til you fall over unconscious.
DeleteAh, didn't look at it that way. Thanks :)
DeleteJust a final clarification on the Sarasvati issue though: composing and playing for days on end is fine, but attending a concert is not?
Unless it was difficult or challenging, probably not. Playing in the concert? Joining the concert and making it not stop? Those would fit.
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