Question: In your genealogy of the Devas, Kali is the wife of Shiva as well as Parvati. Is this a mistake, and if not, care to elaborate? Also: can a Scion be born of two gods,? Parvati and Shiva come to mind...
A mistake? All our Hindu research cred is offended!
Actually, it's not; Shiva has a reputation for being faithful and monogamously in love with his wife, from the time that she was the ill-fated Sati through her death and reincarnation as wily Parvati. It is therefore a little confusing why he's attached to two ladies on our family tree, and why Hindu myth talks about both of them as his wives without batting an eyelash at the apparent contradiction. This is because Hindu mythology is big on the concept of divinity as a single thing with many moving parts, and Parvati and Kali are a prime example of that idea in action.
In an essentially boiled-down form, the myth goes that Parvati went into battle with several other Devas against the asura Raktabija, a horrible monster that was murdering gods and despoiling the landscape right and left. Every time the demon was wounded, a new copy of him sprang up from every drop of blood that touched the ground, and the gods soon realized that they were in serious danger of being overrun by Raktabija's endless army of himself. Parvati, who had already become the warrior goddess Durga and was still having no luck with the situation, called upon her powers to create yet another aspect of herself, the even more fearsome warrior Kali. Kali thoroughly trashed the asura, and used her terrible long tongue to lick up and drink every drop of shed blood so that he could not regenerate new copies of himself. She then went batshit and rampaged around murdering stuff for a while until Shiva calmed her down, because that's what Kali does.
Basically, Parvati and Kali are the same person; Kali is an aspect of Durga, who is in turn an aspect of Parvati, who in very large Hindu cosmological terms is merely an aspect of Devi, the great feminine divinity that all goddesses are just little pieces of. Shiva is Kali's husband just as much as he's Parvati's husband; Kali came out of Parvati and is part of Parvati, despite the fact that they have become separate for the purposes of demon-thrashing, and indeed Kali obviously recognizes this since Shiva is the only person who can prevent her from being insane for even small periods of time. Shiva has two wives and is still managing to be entirely monogamous, because that's how Hinduism rolls.
But, at the same time, Parvati and Kali need to be separate goddesses for Scion's purposes, because while Hindu philosophy says they're the same, in practice they have pretty much nothing in common except for Shiva. The two goddesses share no roles, perform no similar functions, and definitely don't do the same things; in fact, they're obviously aware of one another as separate people, as in the myth where Parvati gets all ticked off at Shiva teasing her by saying that her skin is as dark as Kali's. Kali goes off on her own separate adventures, usually involving rampages and cosmic property damage, while Parvati has her own stories as well, most often centered around her husband and children.
They're the same person - but they're also clearly not the same person, and Scion has to make distinctions between Hindu deities in order to use them in the game. In all technicality, there's only one "goddess" in the Hindu religion - Devi, the all-encompassing female divinity and keeper of the power of Shakti - but that's not only boring, it's also highly philosophical, rather than being part of the vibrant myths and legends of the Hindu epics. We don't want the Hindu pantheon to just be Deva, the dude god, and Devi, the lady goddess, so we have to break the different personalities off to be their own gods, which is how they're practically treated anyway (especially in ancient times), with their own temples, offerings, literature and stories. This is one of the many places where the concepts of modern Hinduism - in this case, the idea that all of the Devas are merely aspects of a single figure rather than deities in their own right - don't match up to those of ancient mythological India, in which nobody was suggesting that Indra and Vishnu must be the same guy because that would have seemed insane. Hinduism is the largest long-running polytheistic religion in existence, which means that it's changed vastly over time; its newer stories and myths have evolved from the ancient ones, and as it continues on toward ever more modern permutations, Scion has to make a cutoff point somewhere before running into the practical monotheism of things like Vaishnavism.
In Scion terms, figuring out where Kali came from is a little bit weird, since she's not conforming to the normal interpretations of a goddess. We find it most useful to assume that she's either A) a goddess who Parvati called down and unleashed and who her co-wife just refers to as an aspect of herself because she knows nobody's going to correct her, or B) a renegade Avatar of Parvati that somehow became its own individual being, something that isn't possible in most of the rules but that might have been accomplished with the Wyrd or similar kinds of meddling. Either way, she's as legitimately Shiva's wife as Parvati is; their myths are very clear about the relationship.
As for Scions being the children of two gods, yes, actually, that is possible, though unusual. Scion: Companion actually presents an entire sidebar on it (on page 167) specifically because of the famously monogamous couples of Hindu mythology. While two gods in their full forms will always give birth to another god, if one or both of them have used the Avatar Birthright to drop below Legend 9, the resulting child would be a possible Scion. Of course, this isn't going to happen a lot - having sex with mortals is a lot quicker and easier - but it's a possibility for gods who absolutely don't want to cheat on their spouses. Keep in mind, however, that while a Scion might be the biological child of two gods, he can only be the Scion of one of them; whichever parent performs his Visitation is the one that he'll be getting his associated powers from, not both.
I know Companion passes Durga off as one of Kali's akas, but do you think she's enough of her own person in myths to be her own goddess in Scion? I'm asking specifically because, in the part of India I come from (West Bengal if you're interested), Durga is the bees knees, the most popular deity in town by far, with only Kali anywhere near. Parvati, for all intents and purposes, doesn't exist. Ask anyone from Bengal who Shiva's wife is, the first answer will be Durga, not Parvati. I mean, we know she exists, but with the mindset I grew up with, Durga isn't an aspect of Parvati, Parvati is an aspect of Durga.
ReplyDeleteI'd say so. Like Kali, Durga is an "aspect" of Parvati, but she has her own thing going on and her own stories, so I see no reason you have to consider her the same as Parvati unless you want to. The only place the idea of them as different figures conflicts is in the story of Shiva asking Parvati to create/become Durga, but since that's part of that whole problem of aspects/combined divinity I was talking about above, it's not unreasonable for Scion to say that doesn't have to be the case. Especially if you're considering Kali a separate diety, Durga can be one, too.
DeleteThat's interesting to know - I know there's a lot of regional variation throughout India, but while I knew Durga was popular, I had never heard of her referred to as Shiva's wife before (though of course I should have, since she obviously is!). There's so much going on in modern Hinduism that I sometimes feel like it's impossible for those of us studying it from afar to get a good handle on all the nuances!
Because of that whole overarching idea of Devi/Shakti, who's an aspect of whom is kind of fluid anyway, considering that everybody is just an aspect of Devi anyway.
You think Durga being known as Shiva's wife is weird? You don't know the half of it. We in the East of INdia (yes West Bengal is in the East of India; long story) also firmly believe that Lakshmi and Sarasvati are Durga's daughters. Try and wrap your head around that one.
DeleteThe madness!
DeleteAnyway, back to the actual point of my comment: I was thinking of giving Durga Guardian (the name means invincible in Sanskrit, and shares the same root word with Durg, meaning fortress, and Durga herself is often considered guardian of fortresses, not to mention a generally beloved Guardian Goddess invoked all the time for protection), War (she's more the Athena to Kali's Ares, but Durga is definitely a War Goddess), Appearance (every single demon she goes out to kill falls head over heels in lust with her first), Strength (for general demon smiting badassitude) and Dexterity (the woman has as many as eighteen arms, I don't see how she doesn't need to pop out Ultimate Dexterity just to read the morning paper without tearing it apart). As for abilities, I'd give her Animal Ken, Fortitude, Marksmanship, Melee, Presence and Thrown. What do you think?
DeleteDurga sounds like an awesome goddess. I always love the hot kick ass goddesses, especially in such patriarchal cultures. Also I agree with Ann on the difficulty of pinning down Hinduism, both because of her reasons stated above, and also because as a major thriving religion it is still changing and evolving before our eyes, so what is considered viable today will be coast aside tommorow. Finally and these two questions are probably going to make me sound like an idiot, but was there really a thugee cult that murdered people in the name of Kali? and the second idiot question is is there really such a concept as the Kali Yuga?
ReplyDeleteYes and yes. There really was a thuggee cult that worshipped Kali and killed people in her name, though I'm sure the loot from killing rich travellers didn't hurt. They even had they're own personal Avatar of Kali called Dakate Kali (lit. Kali of the Dakats, the Bengali word for thug).
DeleteAnd yes, the concept of a succession of ages, each more sucky than the last does exist in Hindu religion and the last of these ages is called Kali Yuga BUT, and this cannot be stressed enough, it has nothing to do with the goddess Kali. They're not even the same word, the just get written the same in English. The Kali Yuga should be pronounced the Cully Yuga.
Thuggees are a real thing; they were technically supporters of Kali, though how devout a given Thuggee was probably varied and there were likely as many of them just out for personal gain as there were those who were religiously dedicating their acts to the goddess. I believe they also have some connection to Durga, as well.
DeleteHindu theology describes four stages that the world goes through in a constant cycle; Kali Yuga, or the Age of Strife, is the final one before the coming of Vishnu's final Avatar Kalki and the restarting of a better world after most of this one has self-destructed. Depending on which Hindu scholars you ask, we might be in the Kali Yuga now (it lasts for something ridiculous like 400,000+ years) or we might be just about to enter it.
The Kali Yuga's an important concept (and a great place for Scion end-of-the-world scenarios!), but it doesn't actually have much to do with the goddess Kali; the Kali referred to here is an asura of the same name bent on degrading the world. And while it's certainly a kind of "apocalypse" scenario, just as with the Maya calendar bullshit, the Hindu concept has very little to do with the insane New Age interpretations of it that have sprung up all over the place in the last few decades.
I know that children of two Gods in lower-case avatar form can be a Scion, but what about two Devas in upper-case Avatar forms? Lava and Kusha, for example, the twin sons of Rama (Vishnu) and Sita (Lakshmi) grow up to be Heroes and highly venerated.
ReplyDelete(I apologize for not being in the comments as much. My roleplaying group had a falling out, so I haven't played Scion in months :( until by some chance I get involved with some other group, my interest in Scion is purely academic)
In that case, they'd probably be born as mortals who could be tapped as Scions by either of the parents. In the case of Rama and Sita, their children were probably made Scions of Vishnu and Lakshmi. Rama and Sita are themselves Avatars so they can never progress past Legend 7; they're split-off parts of Vishnu and Lakshmi and can't really break away. But their children are separate beings, so if tapped as Scions, they could progress all the way up to gods if they were impressive enough.
DeleteAww, I'm sorry to hear that! Have you tried poking around the Scion forums or asking folks here if they have room in an online game? I don't know if anyone has openings, but there's usually someone with space somewhere.
I have a story and mechanically question. As we have seen with the, at least to me slightly, confusing religion, that one goddess can have forms that are like other goddesses.
ReplyDeleteMechanically and story wise, how could I do this as a Scion? Cause I am reading this and I have yet to actually make a character of this pantheon, so reading this peaked my interest. Cause if it is possible, I would like to know.
As a Scion, I'd tell you to stunt it and make it a roleplaying thing. There's no real need for a mechanical mess to show the different forms of your god or goddess; grab a little Epic Appearance to change the way you look, and you can look like a completely different person when you're performing your Death-god roles than you do when you're being a graceful patron of Health. It's very easy for a god or goddess to present him- or herself differently depending on where they are and what they're doing; just change your looks and behavior and presto, mortals will have no idea you're the same person (or aspect of the same person) unless you tell them so.
DeleteAs a Hindu Scion, you'll also eventually have access to the Avatara boon, which will literally create alternate aspects of yourself that can run around in the World independently from you. Even if you don't put much effort into presenting yourself differently in different situations, if you have enough Avatars people are bound to come up with conflicting and/or complementary ideas about you.