Friday, December 21, 2012

Do Not Kill Other Scions

Question: In your games, how do the gods react if the PCs kill a Scion of a different god? I know it varies by god, but can you give general guidelines for each pantheon?

Honestly, no, not really. This isn't a case where you can do a neat division by pantheon, even in generalities; with something as emotional and/or incredibly irritating as the loss of a child, it's every god for himself in terms of how they'll react. The gods don't have a culturally unified stance on something that's so personal in nature.

Generalities for all gods, though, we can do! Players never like hearing this, but it's important, so we're saying it anyway: Do Not Kill Other Scions.

Sometimes they're blowing your things up. Sometimes they're showing you up in front of the gods. Sometimes they're stealing your girlfriend, sometimes they're stealing your relics, and sometimes they're insulting you like there's no tomorrow. Sometimes they started it first. Sometimes they're just being huge dicks. Sometimes you feel like no one in the universe would convict you for killing this evil/insane/assholish Scion to make the world a better place.

But that is not true. Many people will convict you, no matter what the Scion you killed was doing, and first and foremost among them will be the Scion's parent, screaming for blood.

Look, gods have to invest a lot of time, energy and political favors into creating a Scion and keeping up with him enough for him to be useful to them. Even if he's kind of a fuckup or causes problems for other people, as long as he's saving them time or energy or getting things done that they couldn't or don't have time to, they're probably going to be epically pissed off if you kill him. You didn't just kill their flesh-and-blood son, fruit of their loins (though that's certainly enough to make many gods angry enough to destroy you); you also killed all the Legend and Willpower and time and favors to other gods that they sank into him, leaving them back at square one looking at either not having a useful tool anymore or having to do the whole thing over again. Imagine you don't have enough time to get everywhere by walking, so you spend several weeks and all your free cash building yourself a homemade racer bicycle that makes your life much easier and frees you up to do other things. Now imagine someone just walked by and smashed it with a sledgehammer. That's what you just did by killing this god's kid.

And, I mean, the god or goddess in question also might have loved this dead Scion - sure, lots of gods are callous asses who create Scions as shock troops, but once in a while you do have one who genuinely cares about his children and is emotionally invested in them. So now you smashed his bicycle and his baby. You're doomed.

How a deity responds to your murder will always depend on the specific god's personality and, sometimes, the situation under which her child was killed. Deities who have hot tempers or who believe in an eye for an eye will probably just kill you, full stop, no appeal, and tell your divine parent that they're square now. Others, particularly trickster-types or sadists, will choose instead to constantly torture you, killing off your family members, ruining your projects, dropping random negatives on you and ensuring that your life is as hellish as possible until they feel like you've properly atoned (which might be never). Those who are politically savvy or recognize an opportunity when they see one may instead go to your parent and demand recompense, which might take any form from magical toys, that god being forced to help them do something dangerous or demeaning, punishment inflicted on you as the Scion who did this, getting to use you as their errand-bitch now that you got rid of theirs, or even the dreaded Divine Blank Check, to be cashed in when it's most inconvenient and problematic for you and/or your parent. That sort of thing also usually leads to your own parent raining down displeasure on you - they created you to help them out, not to do stupid shit that forces them to do things for other people, and unless you're already god-level yourself, what you do is almost always going to come back home to your parent. You, after all, are just a Legend 3 Scion who represents your parent; you're not important enough to bother with other than possibly calling for your death, but your parent is a juicy plum full of reparations as far as an offended god is concerned.

Gods who are particularly invested in honor or chivalry may take what was happening into account, but that usually only means they'll mitigate the consequences, not waive them. If you killed their Scion in self-defense because he was attacking you, then those with a sense of fair play are less likely to want you killed in return, but they're still going to demand something for the loss of their child - that was an important and expensive resource you just destroyed, and they're not about to let it go for free. Often they might just demand that you now take the dead Scion's place, so you're finding yourself running the errands and doing the dirty deeds of two gods instead of just one, trying to juggle both sets of expectations.

And then, of course, there's the Justice purview. Gods who are Justice- or Order-focused may very well slap you with that purview's miserable consequences, from locking you in psychic prison for decades to banishing you from your homeland forever to branding you as a Scion-killer for all to see. Often they'll want to do this on top of whatever remuneration they just got from your divine parent; sure, getting paid a nice weregild for the loss of their son is a step in the right direction, but they won't really be happy until they're sure you've also been punished for your actions. Welcome to the Star Chamber, and good luck.

So, really, to reiterate: Do Not Kill Other Scions. It's a horrible idea for everyone; it pisses off the gods, it weakens your own divine parent, and it'll probably have terrible consquences for you. It's almost always a bad idea.

...but there will be times that you have to go for the bad idea, so don't think that it's not possible to kill other Scions and survive or that it never happens. Particularly if different gods are working against one another, sometimes you come up head-to-head against another Scion and it's you or him, or sometimes he's doing something so evil or wrong that you have to put him down for everyone's good. And when that happens, you take your lumps; once in a while your divine parent might shield you from some of the fallout (especially if she directly told you to do it in the first place), but that's never guaranteed, and even if the dead Scion's parent understands or even agrees with why you did it, they'd be a fool not to take advantage of it for all it's worth. Our PCs have killed other Scions before - children of Set, Andarta, Teutates, Izanami and Hachiman - and while sometimes they really couldn't see any way around it, it was never, ever free.

Just like any other big, impactful decision, you shouldn't do it and it's never free, but once in a while you can't avoid it. Sometimes Scions have to make the painful decision in order to preserve the greater good, and killing other Scions will usually be that kind of a situation.

So Do Not Kill Other Scions. But if you have to, be ready to manage the fallout and to make the best case you can to both your parent and whatever other gods are about to start gunning for you.

23 comments:

  1. Interesting.

    Not the original poster, but as a somewhat related question, though it probably needs it's own blog entry, how much information does a scion get on Visitation? I mean, something like Do Not Kill Other Scions seems like it should be something all Gods would want to tell their kids, if only to avoid this fallout.

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    1. It probably depends on the parent, honestly. Do Not Kill Other Scions is definitely useful information, but some gods might not be bright enough to think of it, or some might assume their kids were smart enough to already know that, or some Scions might get their Visitations from a messenger that doesn't go into much detail. It probably varies depending on the ST and how s/he plays the god in question.

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  2. Yeah one of our PCs got screwed because she murdered a child of Loki...she was gone next session, off to become Loki's bitch until the debt was repaid...knowing Loki...Well it was good to know her while it lasted :P

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    1. Oh, yeah - somehow I forgot to mention that our PCs have killed a son of Loki in the past, two. (The same son of Loki. Twice.) Asgardian weregild trials are no fun at all.

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  3. You know, one of the positive things about this, at least?
    The opponent Scion would be under the same thing, so you can steal his relics, and seduce his girlfriend, and show him up in front of the pantheons.

    And his parent will be screaming at him not to kill you, because if he does, your parent will get a Divine Blank Check™.
    So, there's some safety there.

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    1. Oh, yes, the door swings both ways! It's still probably not a good idea to taunt other Scions too heavily - I mean, you'll still be dead, although for some trickster archetypes death is a small price to pay for amusement - but if they lose it and kill you, you can revel in the knowledge that the odds are good that their lives are going to be payback hell.

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    2. Hm, true.
      Still, if that daughter of Amaterasu takes a Relic from you, and forces yourfollowers to worship her, well, it's only fair to return the favor.

      (I kind of imagine this is how most conflicts between Scions end up going, when they manage to remain calm - both sides trying to screw the other one over as much as possible, without actually crossing over into killing the other side
      Like a cold war, of trickstery!)

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    3. Exactly! Death is the least creative way of getting into it with other Scions, really - why kill people and deal with the fallout when you can have an epic rivalry that spans the ages?

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    4. Makes me wonder what kind of fresh hell Jay Ortiz had/has to endure for killing three (four?) Scions all at once.

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    5. One of them from his own pantheon, yet. What happened to him as a consequence of his actions has never been directly revealed, but it was at about that time that he started spending a lot of time conspicuously not in Mexico.

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  4. so did Jay have to pay, or did he use a mixture of charisma/manipulation/running and hiding to get off Scott free? I would love to see him in the tug of war between Ryujin, Surya, and Xipe Totec.

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    1. Oh, he definitely had to pay in some way (the PCs just don't know what it was; the only one who knows about the incident is Woody, and he's too full of burning hatred to ask). The act of killing them put in motion a horrible, complicated web of problems that the other PCs have sometimes been dealing with without even knowing twhere it came from.

      (It was Agni, not Surya, and also he killed a daughter of Set, Lapis, at the same time. Problemsssss.)

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  5. So what kind of trouble did Aiona and Terminus get into for killing Hachrio's little sister. Since they did it to get rid of Izanami's curse over Aiona in the first place, it sort of seems counterproductive.

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    1. Terminus mostly escaped that one; he didn't actually do the deed and at the eleventh hour tried (unsuccessfully) to stop his cousin.

      Aiona, however, ended up being hunted mercilessly by Hachiro, the older Scion of Izanami, for the rest of her run. He destroyed her cults, made trouble for people she cared about, and at Ragnarok came very close to killing her before they were forced to call off the fight to deal with other stuff. He's still on the warpath and won't stop until he's destroyed everything she loves and/or killed her.

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  6. Also, wow, I can't believe I forgot to mention that this is how John Doe died. He killed a Scion of Sraosha while rampaging as a werewolf, and Sraosha put him the fuck down. Sraosha don't play.

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  7. I like the part about using the guilty Scion as a tool in reparation. Since the guy you just killed probably had a lot of responsibilities and/or debts, they now pass onto you. Very Vampire-esque. When, you know, you don't just get murdered in response.

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  8. Yeah.. I remember this all too well, but in a previous post we have talked about it and the reasons behind it, so I did not get much punishment. Just a very angry Hera making my life hell.

    What I would like to know is, why is it so prevalent in stories then that rival scions try to kill the band you are in and nothing happens to them? I know you said the door swings both ways, but in the games that I played it doesn't. Scions who outright go against the gods, try to murder other scions, some of them succeeding mind you and they go scott free. My main example is the antagonist group from the core scion books.

    So my main question is, when it comes to antagonists in your games, do they ever suffer consequences or for the sake of story do you let them off? Cause I have had my gms mostly lean to them never getting in trouble.

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    1. It is monstrously unfair if NPC's get away scott-free for actions that land the PC's in hot water. Their punishment might not occur on-screen (because they're NPCs) but it should happen and if the PC's look into the matter, they may well find what kind of prices are being paid for the antics of their enemies.

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    2. Yeah, if an ST isn't punishing NPCs for killing other Scions (or at least making them work really hard to try to escape punishment), he or she is doing it wrong. Those are consequences regardless of who your parent is or which side of the table you're sitting on.

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    3. Also, would almost raising Atlantis and almost destroying all of the world by working with a titan count as something that parents would punish their kids for?

      I'm asking cause some of the games, this stuff happens periodically, where I think to myself if a pc did it, he would of been killed or at least reprimanded. And sometimes it seems like they never get punished.

      The other flip side is some companions of mine never get punished it seems to. Like one killing 3000 Chinese, one chopping off the arm of a scion to take as a trophy, and another player killing a (some what rogue) scion and nothing happens.

      Idk why things like that don't get reprimanded, but me not playing nice with all the kids gets me in trouble.

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    4. Working with Titans often causes parents to get pissy - they don't like bonuses being given to their enemies, but then again, sometimes god is willing to take that chance if it furthers some other secret goal of their own, so it can vary. Blowing up large parts of the world always makes the pantheons with Harmony start freaking right out, so that's never going to be okay with them and probably not with their allied pantheons who have to deal with it.

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  9. On the topic of Scions forced to take the place of the people or things they have killed, I can think of no more obvious example than Setanta!

    On the topic of NPCs getting off without repercussions, I think this can be one of those issues that deals heavily with player psychology. I think a storyteller should probably make some effort to show the players what repercussion the NPC is suffering unless it is important to the story for them not to know.

    Not only is it satisfying to see them suffer, but not seeing them suffer can lead players to believe the punishment was light or nonexistent. I think it is a missed opportunity to build pathos if those repercussions are merely mentioned instead of shown.

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    1. That's a good point. Even if it doesn't happen right away, seeing that an NPC sometimes gets punished for his misdeeds can go a long way toward players not feeling disenfranchised. Ours tend to laugh cruelly and then feel slightly better about life afterward; hey, life might suck, but at least it also sucks for people they don't like.

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