Question: In the myth of Arjuna on Agni's page, Arjuna and Krishna "battle Indra to a standstill" while Agni is burning down the forest to regain his strength. Do you think in Scion's mechanical system it's even possible for a Demigod and a Probably-Demigod-Level Avatar of Vishnu to fight a Legend 12 God on even footing? (Even in possession of a powerful relic?)
Man, it's a Hindu mythology extravaganza around here these days.
Mechanically, it's doubtful; even with Gandiva, Arjuna is probably not sufficiently badass to take on Indra for even a short period of time, and you're right that Krishna is probably not powerful enough as an Avatar at this time to add sufficient bolstering. Having seen what happens when demigods try to take on Legend 12 gods, it's very clear that Indra could easily have wiped the floor with them.
I suspect the reason he didn't doesn't have to do with their power levels, but rather with political expediency and Indra's generally shitty situation when it comes to the Trimurti. While Indra has no issue with raining all over Agni on his own - after all, Agni's his brother and that's the kind of shit divine brothers do to one another, plus his buddy Takshaka was hanging out there - things change considerably when Arjuna and Krishna get involved.
For one thing, Krishna is the avatar of Vishnu, and Indra probably knows better by this point than to try to electrocute a member of the Trimurti; it's pantheon-politics suicide, and possibly literal suicide if Vishnu and his friends decide to be offended about it. Krishna also makes a point of busting out the Sudarshana Chakra, which is Hindu religious code for "horrible serrated decapitation murderdisk", one of Vishnu's most famous weapons, as if to drive this point home. None of this is really encouraging Indra to give it his all when it comes to smiting the guy, snake-friend or no snake-friend.
Then there's also the fact that Arjuna is actually his son and his own Scion. He probably doesn't want to murder him over this (although with Indra's temper, you can never quite tell), which would be a pretty colossal waste of resources, not to mention that one assumes he's probably vaguely fond of the kid. When your son starts attacking you, apparently because he's siding with his uncle on some subject or other, you really don't have a lot of options that don't end in heartbreak and recriminations from everyone else (plus, there's still that ugly spectre of what happened to him the last time he killed someone in battle hanging over him, and he had the Trimurti's support on that one). It's actually pretty clear that he wasn't going to kill Arjuna, and that his son can't really resist him in terms of power - when Arjuna's about to kill Takshaka's escaping son, Indra pretty much just knocks him unconscious and doesn't let him back up until the snake's out of his range.
So in the case of this particular story, it's not really that it's in any way realistic for a couple of Legend 6 dudes to try to take on Indra of the mighty thunderbolt, but rather that Indra of the mighty thunderbolt is also mightily hampered by a lot of considerations that prevent him from really unleashing his fury the way he probably normally would have. You know how it is; it's all fine to go beating up punks that look at you funny, but when it's your son and your kinda-boss giving you the mutual finger, you're not really sure what to do about it other than get pissed off and yell a lot. Indra just happens to yell with thunderbolts. (And then, because he's Indra and he appreciates a good beatdown, applauds when he calms down.)
(This would also explain how these two guys, moments later, somehow managed to run off basically all the Devas and Yazata combined. It's one of the most hilariously gigantic instances of everybody pretending to lose just to avoid problems ever to appear in an epic.)
An alternative explanation might be that Arjuna and Krishna have Fate backing them in this endeavor, meaning that Indra and company are probably operating under hefty anti-Fate negatives while the two archers are being buffed far beyond what they might normally be able to accomplish. It is declared to Indra that the forest's destruction has been foreordained by Fate and that no one will be able to defeat its protectors, and if that's true this isn't a case of Arjuna and Krishna beating the massed might of an entire pantheon; it's just a case of Fate using them as convenient tools, and Fate beating the massed might of an entire pantheon. Which is kind of what Fate does.
But my money is on everybody realizing that killing these kids off would be a nuclearly bad political move, and thus deciding to just make it look good so everyone could save face and then go home.
One thing that disappoints me about the Scion ruleset is that it's really hard to ever end up with anyone actually fighting anyone to a standstill, like is so cool in myths.
ReplyDeleteAnd if you do end up with it, somehow it turns out to be boring.
There are some really awesome parts of that story that I think are legit, though. Like shooting so many arrows that they provided an impenetrable rain-proof barrier over the forest so that mere rain couldn't put Agni's fires out - that's an awesome Scion stunt that I can see when the dudes involved are equipped with awesome god-relics.
DeleteIt's just when Indra + Yama + Kubera + Varuna + Skanda + the Aswins + Dhatri + Jaya + Tvashrti + Surya + Mrityu + Aryaman + Mithra + Pusha + Bhaga + Savitri + all the Rudras, Maruts, Vasus Visvedevas and Sadhyas roll into battle that I start to be unconquerably skeptical about the ability of two demigods, even with badass weapons, being able to rout everybody without apparently trying very hard.
Your political and Fate-based rationales for why Arjuna and Krishna came out on top makes a lot of sense for this situation, but this kind of question comes up occasionally in other cases (coincidentally, all of them Greek in this example): How did Apollo manage to fail to seduce that guy that one time? How did a mortal beat Athena in a weaving contest? How did a mortal manage to wound Ares during the Trojan War?
ReplyDeleteI don't know if this is a valid mechanical justification, but is it possible that everyone was just using a lower Legend Avatar that day? The whole purpose of Avataring-down is to avoid Fatebonds in the first place, so why would we assume that a God is running around at Legend 12 any time they're in the World?
(I have no defense for the Everyone vs. Two Demigods battle, unless Everyone was also in a lower-legend Avatar that day).
Well, Ares is just kind of terrible. He's terribly scary in battle, but he's not very famous for being impossible to hurt. Remember, he can be easily defeated by jars. I believe in some cases there are actually in-myth justifications for Apollo's problems - at least in Daphne's case, Eros had intentionally shot her with the arrow of I Hate You to force her to reject the sun-god's advances, so that's really a question of Apollo's roll against Eros', not her poor five dice.
DeleteBut I think that's a great point - in a lot of cases where gods fight or compete with mortals on an apparently equal footing, they were very probably in Avatar form at the time. After all, they're in the World interacting with mortals, which is what Avatars are for, and it makes a very neat and uncomplicated reason for them to be competitive with mere mortals.
This works mostly on a one-on-one basis, though... giant god-battle makes it harder to swallow that explanation. (Also, the Mahabharata likes to describe all the clearly godly lightning-bolt slinging and magical weapon wielding going on, so they can't be that low in Legend even if they are rocking Avatars.)
For greeks I always rational that they are in a very low legend avatar because of Valor. It would be unfair to contest someone at their godly level so they avatar down until they reach a fair level to participate on an equal field so they can win on their own merit. And then they fail.
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