Saturday, April 28, 2012

Princes of the Universe

Question: How does Worship translate to power in Scion? Companion mentions that they are pretty powerful because they are still being worshiped.

I assume the "they" you're referring to are the Devas, and I suppose that's true, to a point; they have an extensive base of worshipers in the World and as a result are very well-known and venerated to a degree that most other pantheons aren't. But, in Scion's world, being fancy and beloved is pretty much as far as that goes.

Because worship, in Scion, doesn't translate to power. There is actually no mechanical benefit whatsoever to having humans worship you; they don't give you power in any way other than to stroke your ego and make you feel like the awesome deity you are. It doesn't matter if you have ten kazillion mortals fervently praying to you every day, or if no one remembers you even exist; the only different is in how much static is coming in through your Hear Prayers knack.

There are exceptions, of course. The Aztlanti do gain power from worship (specifically sacrificial worship), but that's because that's what their PSP does, not because it's a feature of the system itself. And, of course, mortals who are Fatebound to you can provide bonuses with the power of their belief, but just believing in you isn't enough to get someone Fatebound to you; you have to be there, in person, blowing Legend around them for that to happen, so the likelihood of more than a tiny fraction of the Devas' worshipers actually being Fatebound to them is slim to none. People who are Fatebound to a god do often form or found cults or religions in their name, but not all (or even most) of the members of those religions are Fatebound. Even if a mortal devoutly believes in you and all your divine exploits, his daily prayers and sacrifices have no effect whatsoever on you if he isn't Fatebound. And even Fatebound mortals aren't always part of your religion; it's entirely possible for a mortal to be Fatebound to you without believing you're a god at all, or without being a member of the religion in which you are worshiped.

This often seems weirdly counter-intuitive to players and Storytellers, especially if they're new to Scion, but it actually makes a great deal of sense. Fatebonds are what make the World go 'round; gods don't like getting saddled with too many Fatebonds, so they stay out of the World, which in turn has caused many of their religions to die out or be mostly replaced by others, which is why the still-thriving Asian religions are an exception. Trying to keep track of worship as a quantifiable mechanic would be a messy, unbalancing endeavor; how would you decide who was getting worshiped "enough" and who wasn't? Where would you draw lines, and based on what criteria? What about people that everyone believes in, but nobody worships? What's the difference between belief and worship? It's a realm of misty, unexplainable questions that don't really add anything to the game, so it's not hard to see why the game's writers left the idea out. The idea of gods requiring worship is a fairly recent one anyway, with a few notable exceptions; most ancient cultures worshiped gods because they wanted their blessings, wanted to avoid their wrath, or recognized them as awesome figures who deserved respect and obeisance. They didn't do it because they thought the gods needed it or got some kind of benefit from it; they did it because they were gods, and when you're confronted with a god, there's not much else to do besides worship or run away. (The Aztlanti are, once again, the exception - the Aztecs did believe that their gods needed sacrifice in order to keep the universe from collapsing, but again, that's just them, not something that applies to all pantheons.)

Companion, I think, is suggesting that there's a sort of prestige to having a thriving world religion, which is not untrue. The Devas are in a pretty enviable position, still respected, adored and worshiped by millions of people; even if that doesn't give them any mechanical crunch to play with, it's still something that other gods might easily envy and that they themselves probably feel pretty good about. But other than that, having a living religion is pretty much nothing more than something that looks really nice on their godly resumes.

10 comments:

  1. so what about the comments in the books about gods going into commas or turning into ethereal goo due to no worship?

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  2. ...where are those comments? There are notes about Pantheons that no longer exist, having died out or been destroyed, yes. However I don't remember ANY that are GONE due to lack of worship.

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    1. As far as I can tell from a quick and dirty run-through, there aren't any that are said to have met such a fate in the books. There are a few veiled references to gods being "in danger" if they aren't being worshiped, but absolutely no examples or systems - it looks like another case of several different writers not having a clear unified idea of what the game does to me.

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  3. closest thing i found was demigod 123.

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    1. Yeah, I see it. That entire chapter is a clusterfuck, though - it's also where things like the bizarre bogus Slavic hook that does not appear anywhere in Slavic myth or the insane decision to make the Simurgh male and some kind of evil Titanic seducer or the completely crazy setup of Itzpapalotl as only demigod-level of power come from. That chapter is doing a lot of brave and creative things, but it's pretty much batshit and doesn't play nicely with the rest of the Scion line at all.

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  4. it is inferred that worship or at the very least belief is a contributing factor of a pantheons power, though not the only one. That is why low level gods fade away, there is no belief to fuel there legend. The elder gods are staples in reality that do not need belief to live but it does affect there power. pg5 of the beginning of the story for the god book states this as a reason the Oplympians are so pressed just to defend themselves from gaias seige.

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    1. The people that write the fiction are very different people(with very different skill sets) then the people that right the rules. This is a problem throughout all of whitewolf. "problem"

      Basically the stories are for flavor, and nothing should be taken for fact.

      And if it was actually somewhere in the rules, we'd probably say its bad and we ignore it.

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    2. Yeah, if there's no actual rule that says that, it's not actually in the rules. I will tell you right now that as a writer of fiction myself, I will totally make things up and bend the "rules" if it makes a story dramatically better; don't take a fiction writer's offhand mentions as having the weight of a rules-writers decisions, because they don't. I'd also note that fiction means that you have no idea who's the reliable source of information: sure, the Dodekatheon might be saying they need worship not to fade away, but gods say a lot of things that are not technically true, especially when they're training and manipulating their offspring into doing things.

      And John is right, if that were actually in the rules, we would probably ignore it for all the reasons in the post above - it's weird, it'd be crazy to try to keep track of, it takes cool stuff out of the gameworld for no good reason, and it's a very modern idea that doesn't really have any presence in these ancient religions anyway.

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    3. I'm gunna agree. The vague idea that worship is somehow important to the Gods is thrown around in a few places, but there's no system for it and there's far more verbage suggesting that it isn't important at all.

      What may be a result of lack of human interest is the lack of Legend progression. If no one knows your stories, if no one spreads them and spins them into epics and tall tales, how can you gain Legend?

      So, without humans spreading the stories (which they may not even believe at all), it could cause stagnation of divine power. It'd be hard to improve existing Legend scores, hard to raise Heroes to Demigods and Demigods to Gods. In a roundabout way, there are things that humans do that makes Gods stronger. There just isn't anything humans can do or not do that makes Gods weaker.

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