Question: Itztli seems to work just fine except for the last level, which is just an invitation to squick and/or getting murdered by your divine parent for a Legend fix. How would you change it? Maybe something involving the sacrifice of Legendary beings that aren't family?
We've said it before, but we'll say it again: Familial Sacrifice is stupid. We get the underlying concept - the boon is trying to say that the ultimate sacrifice reaps the ultimate reward, and family members are probably among the most precious people you could ever sacrifice - but it falls flat on a number of levels. For one thing, the Loyalty-ridden Teotl would have severe difficulty killing their family members even if it was necessary, and this boon is just an invitation for someone to have to roll their Duty vs. their Loyalty and go bananas in one direction or the other; a boon contradicting a pantheon's Virtues isn't always grounds for dismissal, but PSP boons, which are supposed to be the core powers and rituals of a given pantheon, should work with their native Virtues, not against them. Also, the boon is weirdly thematically disconnected from actual Aztec practices, which the vast majority of the time did not involve killing one's family members and would generally have been pretty severely against it if anyone else at all was available. Aztec theology believes that blood begets power, period, but your family's blood (while certainly more precious to you) does not actually have any more power in it for the gods than anyone else's. Finally, the boon is just tragically easy to cheat, making it lose what thematic resonance it has; all you need is a family member you don't care about or dislike, and suddenly you can happily boost yourself to insanity levels of power without giving much of a shit about killing that person. Which is hardly much of a sacrifice, is it? (Worse, the book actually encourages this undercutting of the boon's point by suggesting that some of the Teotl keep stables of untapped children around so they can murder them at will. Because of course the Teotl are all murder-motivated soulless evil people who just love killin' folks.)
So, yes, it's a wreck of a boon, and we do not recommend using it. However, we have not yet replaced it with anything, much as we'd like to. Eztli continues to sit at level 9 Itztli because, like most Teotl, she'd vastly prefer to kill herself painfully with a blunt splintery rock than hurt a family member, and we've sort of waffled around the fact that the rest of the Teotl only have nine PSP boons right now and tried not to look embarrassed about it. We desperately need something to give them the option of being awesome in a more appropriately Aztec way.
We're still debating exactly what to replace Familial Sacrifice with, though. We have a few potential ideas; John is a fan of constructing a boon based around the idea of the nahualli, the animalistic Aztec spirit-twin, and we've also floated the idea of building something around the ixiptla cults, an ancient Aztec practice of "impersonators" taking on roles related to the gods in order to honor them before sacrifice. Our current problem is that while these are both very excellently Aztec ideas, they also don't quite fit the theme - either mechanically or spiritually - of the rest of the Itztli purview. Nahualli are deeply connected to Aztec spirituality but have little to do with sacrifice or empowerment of the universe, and we're also still debating whether they work better as a Birthright anyway (current score: Anne yes, John no, fights continuing). Ixiptla cults are likewise super neat and something we'd love to see more of happening around our Teotl PCs and gods, but they may not be quite widespread enough across the pantheon's worship (Tezcatlipoca and Mictlantecuhtli definitely have them, but some others don't have any records of ixiptla practices) to be something they all universally have available via PSP.
Ideally, we need a top-of-the-line showstopping Legend-granting boon that involves sacrifice on a cosmic level - something akin to what Quetzalcoatl did when he pierced his own penis to help create mankind, or when Tezcatlipoca lost his foot to lure Cipactli, or Xipe Totec is flayed alive over and over to renew the earth. But we don't yet know what that should look like exactly, and ideally we may need to work on overhauling the whole Itztli scale at the same time to make sure it progresses smoothly.
Yeah, basically we have no good excuse for not having done this yet. Sorry. :(
My player who is now going toward being the Teotl Star-Crusher black hole god, did earlier on in the game comment that Familial Sacrifice might be interesting to use combo'd up with Co-Location for a Fertility God to sacrifice himself to empower the renewal of the world/coming of springtime/etc.
ReplyDeleteWhile we both agreed that the idea had a lot of resonance, it was also a bullshit use of the powers as he'd be sacrificing a Will dot (which can be bought back fairly trivially) for a massive Legend boost.
Some kind of cosmic-level sacrifice boon would be cool though. The magnitude of the sacrifice would be reflected in what you got, kinda like the sacrifices for Magic, but actually worth doing. ;P
BTW Anne, thanks again for the black hole god names! He's going with Patlachcitlali when the time comes.
You're very welcome. :)
DeleteI agree with you - if it's just spending a Willpower he can easily buy back, it wouldn't really be much of a sacrifice. Itztli's all about it needing to be serious pain and/or loss for the greater good, not minor inconvenience/clever cheating for the greater good.
Yeah, popping a Will dot for a big Legend pool increase is not much of a sacrifice under my rules (I have a few things people can spend dots on other than Boons, and then buy back at 10exp per dot)
DeleteThe only downside we saw was that he would very likely get progressively crazier from killing himself/dieing yearly. And really, the only thing worse than an OP God is a batshit insane OP God. ;)
Another thought occurs to me. Are there any patheons who have the theme "clever cheating for the greater good"? I imagine that would be a fun PSP to write up, but my mythology knowledge is failing me.
DeletePlenty of individual gods that are like that, but where to find a friggin' pantheon of cheaty, trolling bastards?
You could probably argue that the Bogovi kinda do that - they have all these rules, and yet everyone is always breaking them! But a whole pantheon, no, not that comes to mind. Generally people need their gods to be forces that keep the universe in order, which means they can't all be pains in the ass.
DeleteUh, the Irish do that. They do that all the time. It's basically their way of life. Tricking people with grammar and word meanings and basically twisting every possible word to suit themselves and screw the spirit of the law. They do it *constantly*, over and over, and it's a huge point of pride when they do it.
DeleteThey do a ton of shenanigans, but I'm not sure we can claim it's for "the greater good". ;)
DeleteThe Bogovi are kinda like that aren't they?
DeleteThe Tuatha seem to do shenanigans for the lulz, or because they're pissed off or just because they're assholes, not exactly the "greater good".
On reflection, a culture with a mindset that would worship an entire pantheon of cheaty-ass tricky gods would probably have pissed off their neighbors so bad that they would have been wiped from the earth entirely. ;p
Well, yeah, ok, but if you ask any of the Tuatha, they'll tell you just how much the greater good benefited from them specifically getting their way. Terrible things happen if they don't get their way! Imagine how the world would be if it didn't give them what they wanted!
DeleteBut true, from a non-that-specific-Tuatha point of view, they're not really acting for anyone's benefit but their own. That kinda cheaty attitude and selfishness tend to go hand-in-hand. The Bogovi.. I feel like their motivations for cheating tend to be kinda selfish too, they're just not one the same level as the Irish.
It didn't help anyone but Mr. Chief God that time he 'cheated' his way into marrying that mortal lady.
Do as Svarozhich says, not as he does, kids.
DeleteSo, the idea of sacrificing a Co-Location of yours to reap the benefit of Familial Sacrifice does, out of hand, seem like a seriously unfair cheat. However, I ALSO find it to be an incredibly interesting idea that has the potential for resonance. You are literally conducting a ceremony where you’re killing yourself in a ceremonial way.
DeleteNow, since to have both Co-Location and Familial Sacrifice, you by definition need to be a Legend 11 god at least, it makes sense that you’d use the God child/sibling/grandchild scale, which using GBN’s chart makes it +156 to the Legend pool, which means that at Legend 12, you get a total Legend pool of 300! So, there needs to be consequences for this (And sidenote, if you were a charming Scion of Quetzalcoatl, one of the gods who would have Co-Location, that means if you talked dear old dad into killing himself for you this way, you’d have 400 Legend points, sweet mercy!)
So, first of all, I’d say that for the duration of the year that you reap the benefits of Familial Sacrifice, you cannot buy back that dot of Willpower. If you already bought back the dot you lost for the Co-Location, you lose it again. Additionally, the act of killing yourself in such a manner is so draining to your spirit that you lose an additional dot of Willpower. You cannot take advantage of this Boon and have a WP pool of more than 8 (tradeoff of Legend vs. WP)
And, additionally, to represent the part of you that has died, you lose access to one of your Purviews for that year. The ST chooses your highest ranked Purview (if there are several, he picks one of your favorites) and as long as you benefit from the extra Legend, that Purview is not usable. You killed that part of your soul. (If you have a nahualli Birthright, it’s quite possible that you lose access to that, too, either because that was the part you sacrificed, or because your soul is too fractured to sustain balance with it)
This still doesn’t feel like enough, though. But, it’s a start.
I'm feeling a lot of thematic parallels with the K'uh and their splitting-personality, losing-power purview here. Mesoamerica. :)
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ReplyDeleteI think there is a spelling error in the boon itself, as the ''Scion child, sibling or grandchild'' does not say ''legend pool'' in opposition to the rest of the options.
Delete-Do not mind the above deleted comment, it was just bad humor that i had to get off my chest, but really sucked-
Ah, I see - you're right, it should say "Legend pool", not just "Legend"!
DeletePerhaps something akin to Poco a Poco that works specifically on oneself is a good idea? But, rather than just taking a point of agg, also permanently (or for a long time) debilitating a given attribute? For instance, Xipe Totec's flaying might be a constant penalty to charisma, or Tezcatlipoca's foot sacrifice causing a penalty to dexterity. As for Quetzalcoatl cutting off his penis, considering older associations with male genitalia then he may lose out on strength but perhaps that would be less viable for a modern God.
ReplyDeleteQuetzalcoatl actually still has his penis - he just cut or pierced it heavily to cause it to bleed, thus aiding in the business of creation. That's actually a pretty common feature of Aztec bloodletting - many mortals might pierce their penises with a thorn or needle in order to bleed as a sacrificial ritual, too. In some rituals, it might be done in order to mimic a woman's menstrual blood - in Quetzalcoatl's case, possibly because it's from a woman's ability to menstruate that new life (i.e., children) normally comes.
DeleteBut otherwise, good ideas, and good stuff to think about. :)
[Aztec Boon Name]
ReplyDeleteCost: 4 Legendary Deeds.
Dice Pool: None.
The Teotl with this boon has come full circle back to the ancient practice of sacrificing of herself for the greater good of the cosmos. She must choose some large portion of her body such as most of an arm, most of a leg, all of her skin, or several bodily organs to be given up as a fateful sacrifice.
Once this grand sacrifice has been made, the Teotl chooses a single Epic Attribute or Purview. For the span of ten years, every member of her pantheon including herself pays 2 Legend less whenever activating any knacks or boons associated with the Epic Attribute or Purview she chose. A body part sacrificed in this way may never be regrown for any reason, even with the power of The Savior.
Hmm, the only thing I disagree strongly with here is the clause abouit the Savior. I think it's pretty counter to the game's other mechanics to ever have anything that absolutely can't be done by Avatars (except possibly some Fate things? Even then, though, I can't think of much. The point of Avatars is that they can do literally anything.
DeleteI'd rather say that The Savior can restore a body part lost this way, but that the effects of the boon immediately vanish if that happens. I'd also probably like to add some kind of severe backlash - the same way the rest of the purview drains Legend if you heal its sacrifice wounds, healing this damage with the Savior should cause some severe, possibly pantheon-wide backlash.
Otherwise, though, I like this a lot. It's very thematic and appropriate for both the rest of the purview and the general Aztec ideas behind it.
not bad tom, and I agree with Jason. Make the final boon an epic self sacrifice boon like with magic, only worth doing and with universe altering consequences.
ReplyDeleteI agree as well, the last level boon needs to be a sacrificial-nature boon with serious effects!
Deleteafter all, isn't that what the god who made the pillar connecting Acopa did?
ReplyDeleteWell, in Scion: God, maybe. Aztec mythology doesn't actually mention anything about a pillar, or a lot of other things going on with the Overworld. ;)
DeleteOn the subject of Nahualli as part of the Teotl PSP - wouldn't that put a bit of a damper on Geoff's hopes for being able to pick up one of his own?
ReplyDeleteWell, he's always been fond of dreaming the impossible dream. It's been seven years and he's still trying to get his wife to like him.
DeleteAww... That's kinda sad. ;(
DeleteOTOH: It is very obvious that Eztli is not in the business of liking people :p
You wanna be liked? Obviously not her department. :)
Even if the Nahualli is totally inaccessible he may be able to link himself to some sort of spirit thing eventually. Aren't bears a big thing with him?
He's sure she'll come around eventually. He has A Romantic Plan. :)
DeleteBears are definitely Geoff's totem animal, and what he's hoping that theoretical future nahualli will take the form of!
So... he's become the God of Optimism now? :)
DeleteThe execution and (likely hilarious) results of his Romantic Plan are something I would dearly love to see written up, even if only as a summary.
No matter how it turns out that shit is gonna be golden! ;)
Hey, when you're also the God of Marriage, being God of Optimism is a good accompanying skillset!
DeleteBack when I was running Lost City of Atlanta, Griff proposed a new level 10 based on the Ixiptla concept. I've pasted it below. He didn't have a chance to use it in the game, but someone might find it helpful. There were actually a lot of changes to Itzlti to make it less outrageously abusable.
ReplyDeleteIxiptla
Ten-Dot Itztli Boon
Dice Pool: None.
Cost: 1W+15L.
Choose a mortal to act as your double, spend 1W+15L to designate them as such. For 20 days, you can remotely access their senses and memories. After the 20 day period (aka your feast day), you sacrifice them. You add 30 Legend Points to your maximum total Pool, which automatically is refilled. If they die before your feast day, you wasted your resources and have to try again. You can do this once per year, and only one mortal can act as a double at one time. The effects last one year, and each year only renews the bonus, it does not add to the increased pool.
I remember Griff mentioning this! I think the ixiptla idea is a better contender than nahualli simply because it is sacrifice-connected, so it fits the purview's theme better.
DeleteGriff and I collaborated on a redux of Iztli a few months back - I think our end results were more appropriate to the Teotl and a little more varied than just being ten Boons that give you Legend. Anyone else is welcome to use it as well - http://www.terriblyuncreative.com/scion/itztli.htm
ReplyDeleteSo many good ideas in this post - even if we haven't come up with anything, anybody looking for Itztli 10 inspiration doesn't have to look far. :) You guys are great!
DeleteJust finished reading the revamped Itztli that you n' Griff did, it is now the version that I will be using in my games.
DeleteYeah, that was a good effort of ours. It was based on comments in a post much like this and attempted to try and figure out how to rework the entire purview to make it more Aztecy
DeleteWe did send it to you folks (at least John) at one point, and he gave it the status of "nothing jumped out at me as terrible from a cursory glance". High praise indeed.
And I wanted to post this earlier, but looooooong day at the museum
See, when he says things like that, that's how you know he loves you.
DeleteCan Teomicqui be used by female Scions in battle? Since that does seem to go counter to the whole 'stay in the kitchen' thing the Aztecs have going.
DeleteAlso, what do the Boon titles mean?
P.S. I LOVE Tonacayotl. A sacrifice so Grand that Fate sits up and takes notice is super cool!
@ Anonymous: Thanks! :D
Delete@ Griff: High five!
@Anne: d'awwww. High praise indeed ;)
@ Samudra: hmm - it wasn't my intent to restrict the combat use of Teomicqui for females, but I can see how you might read it that way (and I suppose run it that way if you were so inclined). It's intended to be gender-neutral; females can get the benefits of it if they deploy it in combat, and if you can catch a male giving birth he'd be able to reap those benefits as well.
The Boon titles mean...things...that I wrote down...somewhere else? I think I originally got some of the terms from the Wiki page that covers human sacrifice, and I assume that they're correct since Griff didn't start jumping up and down and screaming about their wrongness and wild inaccuracy. I'll try to follow up if I can find those notes.
I remember at least that Xochimiquitzli means "The flowery death by obsidian knife", the Aztec term for killing someone via sacrifice
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