Question: Social/mental characters can do awesome things in the middle of a combat, but I don't get to attack people during social/mental scenes. Social/mental characters can get boons that use social/mental attributes to blow people up in combat, but there are no boons that let me use physical attributes in social/mental scenes. What's up?
I think you may be a little confused about the difference between what you can do and what you should do, and the difference between restrictions the system places on you and restrictions your own roleplaying places on you.
Actually, you totally do get to attack people during non-combat scenes. That is a power that you, as a combat-heavy character, always have. At any moment, if you decide to, you could start throwing mountain-crumbling punches, busting bananas-ass aggravated damage, leaping over people at the diplomacy table and generally wrecking the place up, possibly before anyone else even has a prayer of reacting to stop you if you have a good Join Battle roll. At any time, you literally have the power to damage or even kill someone, and that is an incredible and dangerous power. That's why social gods, for all their bluster and swagger, are still afraid of unpredictable combat gods, and make it a point to keep them happy, confined, and away from them whenever possible.
Does that mean you should attack people during non-combat scenes? No, probably not most of the time, but that's a choice that you are making as a character. You're saying, "Hey, I don't know how to manage this social scene, I'd better let Johnny Isisbaby take the lead so I don't get confused," or "These people know something or can do something I can't beat out of them, so punching them would be counterproductive," or "I really like these people so I don't want to kill them, so we'll have to find another way to get them to do what we want," or a thousand other reasons you might have to not start suddenly roundhousing people in the face in the middle of a bar. That's what's generally referred to in human society as the "social contract", a concept that means that most people mutually agree to certain basic rules (like "don't stab others without provocation") in order for society to function, even though they technically could do whatever they want at any moment.
The social contract is in effect for gods as well as mortals, although it may take different forms and be broken or circumvented more liberally than in human societies, and that's what you're feeling is restrictive. You have all these amazing physical powers to damage, destroy, maim or maul, but you know that people will be upset if you do, or you might get punished, or you might feel bad about it later. That's just the weight of social responsibility on your shoulders, and it's something every Scion, no matter what their build, has to deal with on a regular basis. There will always be times you could do things, or even want to do things, and still don't because it's a bad idea or you know it won't be worth it in the long run. That's life.
The point here is that you have every bit as much ability to interfere in the social characters' spotlight scenes as they do to interfere in yours. You may decide not to, but that's your decision, not one the system forces on you. If you need to get someone to agree to something instead of stealing from them or physically beating it out of them, then you're making a reasonable decision not to use your powers right now. Nobody stood over you with a bat and made you do that.
In fact, for the most part, physical characters tend to always have more "power" in a scene than social ones, no matter what's going on. It's true that there are various powers in the game that allow social- and mental-heavy characters to participate in and contribute to combat, but when they're not specifically built to do that, they're always going to be worse at it than the guy who is combat-maxed, and they'll always be bleeding themselves of resources that they then don't have available to help them later in their social scenes. They can help out and have something to do during a fight, but they usually can't win it alone and are in much greater danger of dying, and in some cases there's literally nothing they can do at all. On the other hand, while the physical character with few to no social or mental stats can't do very much to participate in a chess game or tea with the queen, she always has the option to just haul off and make it a physical scene by starting some shit. Social characters can try to convert a fight to a social situation through use of powers, but they have shaky odds of doing so, have to spend resources, may not roll high enough or may have the attempt ruined by someone else's interference. All the physical character has to do is walk up to somebody and throw a punch, and presto, instant combat.
Honestly, as the combat character, you're not the most powerless person in your band. A lot of the time, you're so powerful that you literally have to restrain yourself in order to not get everyone in horrible trouble. You are a nuclear warhead they carry around with them, and while they hope they can point you in the right direction at the right time, they all know you could just detonate without warning and screw them over. It's easy to start feeling marginalized about how the social characters have all these skills that you don't, but the flip side of that is that you could literally kill them. You don't, because you have shit to do and you need them. But you could. And they know that, too. (And if they don't, reminding them is delicious.)
We often talk about the difference between "physical", "social" and "mental" characters, and it's true that you can invest so heavily in one of those archetypes that you have few to no powers in the others, especially early on. But the game intentionally balances those three so that they are all powerful, in equally game-changing and world-affecting ways but with a totally different kind of power. The physical characters wield the powers of destruction, speed and direct action, making them physically capable of performing incredible feats and actually being the movers who shift the world. The mental characters are the keepers of the potent powers of knowledge, making them the ones who decide who knows the truth and who continues to believe a lie, giving them the ability to see and learn things no one else possibly could and then dispense that knowledge (or not) where they think it will be best used, radically altering the ideas and plans of others. And the social characters can't do either of those things, but they are the masters of interpersonal communication and interplay, allowing them to defend themselves from the depredations of the other two archetypes and magically seek help from others to do what they can't.
Almost all Scions eventually become hybrids; seldom does anyone become a god without being good at at least a few auxiliary skills outside their archetypal area. But they can and do sometimes start out as only one thing, which they'll be for a long time as they grow into their divine heritage and explore what they really want to be as a deity, and there's nothing wrong with that. Just remember that they are all powerful, but have different kinds of power; and that sometimes some of them will be more suited to a given task than others, but that that does not make those others less important or worthwhile. You're going to encounter social situations, as a combat character, that you can't navigate and that you need other people to take care of for you, but that's no different from the fact that the mental characters would have no prayer of surviving combat if you weren't there, or the fact that the social characters can run the most incredible political takeover gambit of all time and still fail if the mental characters withhold a single, crucial piece of information from them.
So don't get down that you don't always have something with a PUNCH ME sign on it to do in every scene, and don't start feeling like the social characters matter more to the story than you do. It's their job to dominate scenes and try to make everything about them, but in the overall gameworld, you're every bit as powerful and important as they are. They have power over the secrets of the universe or the hearts of mankind, but you have power over life and death, and that's something everyone can respect.
wow. . . . never thought about it from that angle.
ReplyDeleteThis entire post feels exactly like what a social character would tell a physical character to convince them that they really are important. Honest! :P
DeleteUnfortunately for the physical character, there is no such social contract to prevent the majority of social powers being used during combat. It is also much more likely that a player repeatedly being physical during a social challenge will be asked to tone it down and/or leave the game than a player repeatedly being social during a physical combat.
Also, what about creating social and mental knacks and boons that use strength, dexterity, or stamina?
That social character would be making a compelling argument. :)
DeleteThat's true, but what I don't understand here is why you feel social characters shouldn't use their powers in combat. What do you want them to do, sit around doing nothing for the entire scene while you go to town? Go get coffee? Spend a third of the game session - or more, depending on what's happening - stroking your ego by telling you how great you fight stuff?
It's not an accident that there are a lot of powers - boons and knacks - that are intended to help social and mental characters do things in combat. That's because otherwise they are literally helpless, and that's not fun for anyone. It's certainly not fun for them sitting around all day, and it's not particularly fun for the physical characters, either, who can never count on any help or chance of being saved from them.
Scion is also a very lethal game; enemies are high-octane, and the heroes can and do die. Think of it from the perspective of the social characters; sure, when they're doing politics and you can't participate, you feel left out, but when you're doing combat and they can't defend themselves, they die. You being frustrated about not having anything to contribute to a court scene does not stack up equally against their not being able to overcome, escape or survive an enemy without help. The worst that's going to happen to you is you get confused; the worst that's going to happen to them is they get fed through a woodchipper.
Now, I see that you've crossed a line here from the issues inside the game to the issues outside it - namely, you're worried that a physical character who attacks people recklessly will upset the real-life players, and that might create friction. This is definitely possible, just as the social character mind-whammying other members of the party also might cause friction, but it's one of the normal parts of the game, and just like you have to accept that sometimes your buddy with all the Manipulation is going to God's honest you, they have to accept that sometimes you're going to take a swing at things. If you're doing that for legitimate reasons - your character really and truly thinks that's the best move, or hates that person/thing, or believes they don't have time to wait around for politickers to politic, whatever - then they need to accept that you're using your powers appropriately and deal with it inside the game. Players should never get on the case of another player because they don't like the character's behavior, as long as that character is acting appropriately for who they are and what's happening.
Of course, this doesn't apply to if you're waging an out-of-character campaign to steal every scene with kickboxing, but if you're not being an asshole out of character, they shouldn't be either. If your fellow players would kick you out of the game for using your powers as they're meant to be used, they're not being fair to you.
I can see where feeling like you can't intrude in a social scene is unfair when the social people can intrude in combat, but that's a false equivalency. You have just as much ability to do things in their scenes as they have to do things in yours, except that when you fail to participate you're just bored, whereas when they fail to participate they might literally die.
Also, you're completely overlooking the fact that social characters have to use resources - Legend, Willpower, channels, Deeds - in order to participate in your scenes, whereas in many cases you don't have to do anything to take a physical action. Those social characters will then be worse at their own scenes, possibly even unable to do things they normally should, because they've already spent that mojo on helping out in a combat.
As for social powers that roll physical stats... no, that would probably never happen, because it doesn't make any sense. How does your having high Dexterity make you more convincing? Why on earth would you roll Strength to try to enter a political conversation? We're not going to pretend that every boon has a roll that is 100% perfectly aligned, but they still need to make some sense.
DeleteThere are actually boons out there that do roll physical stats, although fewer than roll social or mental - which is on purpose, because fewer powers make sense as physical actions than as mental or magical phenomena. You've got a lot of Guardian boons rolling Stamina, Water boons rolling Dexterity, Darkness and Moon boons that roll Strength. They're not all socially compatible, but they do exist, everywhere that that roll made the most sense.
Also,
DeleteThere is a lot of socialness that a physical pc has just by existing. Its like if a country has nukes. Even though you may not want to deal with them, you have to keep them a certain amount of happy so they dont go all nuclear. Similar situation. So the strength person doesnt "need" rolls of social powers that use physical stats. He just has physical stats and thats a real thing they have to deal with.
I'm sorry, I didn't mean to give the impression that social characters should not be able to use their powers in combat. I meant to give the impression that physical characters should have more to do during social scenes than 'exist as a potential threat'.
DeleteHowever much of a potential threat a physical character might be, I want to be able to actively participate during social and mental scenes! I never overlooked the fact that social and mental characters have to use resources. I am campaigning for physical characters to have their own resource costing powers to contribute to social and mental scenes!
Where is my dexterity knack that allows me to move in subtle and almost hypnotic patterns to distract people? Where is my strength knack that lets me 'conveniently destroy' some landscape and roll my strength to intimidate? Where is my stamina knack that makes people swoon or shy away because of how amazingly virile I am?
Just existing as a theoretical nuke is not good enough. I can do that even if I walk away from the table and have a snack break. I want to actively participate in social and mental challenges even if it costs me resources!
Those all...sound pretty horrible. And they are things that should require social powers to do. If you wreck something, but have zero appearance or charisma....no on really cares(other then still fearing that you are a nuke).
DeleteSocial characters dont have "that" much to do in physical scenes. And their presence ISNT a nuke at all. If you want to participate in those scenes, buy those attributes. But if youre gonna be a graceless meathead, expect to be ignored and shat upon in social and mental situations.
The knacks you listed, if we were to make them, would all be social knacks(manip, charisma, appearance specifically). They sound like they could be cool, but they all require social grace and ingenuity, not just physical stats. The social character(and again, you're living in a world where you can either have one or the other, most of our pcs are very good at at least 2 catagories of attributes), cant do any damage in combat. He cant do the real work, and if you continue to completely ignore your social stats, you'd be the same way in social situations. If you want to participate, its a very small and easy investment.
Those kind of knacks don't have to be in the most obvious attribute. You've said before in previous comments that sometimes knacks exist in one attribute to fill gaps, when another attribute doesn't need a knack to do it. If you dislike the specific flavor text, then just make the flavor text whatever you think fits better!
DeleteSocial characters have tons of things they can do in a physical scene. I can write an extensive list of your knacks that have very powerful applications in combat!
Right, but I guess the part you keep misunderstanding, is that every social scene is also a physical scene. Like all the things a combat character can do, he CAN do in a "social" scene. He doesnt lose any powers, no powers become useless. He just chooses to show restraint.
DeleteI'm not misunderstanding it, those options are just not acceptable and will eventually result in you being asked to make a new character if you keep doing them.
DeleteSo we need more options that are fun for physical characters but do not have the same social stigma.
Showing restraint is not an active and meaningful way to be involved in social and mental scenes. I can take a nap and show restraint.
Neither is running around being wierd and destructive. You might be asked to make a new character. But more likely youre gonna die....or you're party is gonna learn to completely shut you down, or not EVER invite you into the room where a social situation is happening. Animals arent invited to polite conversation. If you insist on being an animal, im not sure why you'd expect much else.
DeleteIf a social character doesnt invest in stamina, but is in physical situations, they're gonna die. How is that any different?
Physical characters need options that do not involve running around being weird and destructive. They need some way for their players to actively contribute to the success of social and mental challenges.
DeleteBecause social and mental characters can absolutely actively contribute to the success of physical combat.
I don't know what you are talking about when you ask how a social character without stamina is any different. A social character can show up to a combat and lock a bunch of people with compelling presence. A social character can drop a few hard sells and have everyone fighting each other.
I could flood this comment board with all the fun ways social powers can be used in combat.
So what are all the active ways a physical character can contribute to social and mental challenges? Can we make more knacks and boons that use physical stats to contribute, the way there are so many knacks and boons that use social and mental stats to contribute to combat?
All the examples you gave were the physical scion running around and being weird. You gave them, not me. A social character without stamina has to succeed at every single one of his roles immediately, or one hit from an enemy and hes dead. The physical character doesn't suffer that risk ever. The social character could just be in the way when an area effect goes off and die if he doesnt have stamina.
DeleteA social character cant freeze everyone with compelling presence, a positive appearance character can. A social character doesnt make people fight each other with hard sell, a manipulation character does. These are important differences because you cant treat a social character like he has all the powers of all the different social attributes. Most dont.
There arent many ways a social character can effect physical combats, but go ahead and flood the board if you like. There are a handful of powers, that if they work, can effect combat, thats it. But if he also doesnt have some decent soak or dv, then hes in BIG trouble.
Im not saying there are many active ways a physical only character can participate in other situations, im saying if you're splitting up the game into three different types of encounters, physical/mental/social then the amount you get to participate in each of those is directly related to the amount you invest into each of those categories.
You're the one saying it should be different, not me.
The only examples I have given you in this conversation were three hypothetical knacks, and two uses of social knacks in combat. I do not which which examples of physical characters running around and being weird you are referring to?
DeleteI do not think that is an important difference because it doesn't matter if you are a charisma character, or a manipulation character, or an appearance character. Regardless of which choice you make you've got several options to choose from! How many options do physical characters have to actively participate in social and mental challenges that will not eventually get them asked to make a new character / leave the game? That is the important issue.
The amount you get to participate in each of those is is directly related to the amount you invest into each of those categories, yes! But those amounts are nowhere close to equal. I can invest in social categories and I can participate in a whole heck of a lot more physical encounters than a physical character can participate in social encounters for equivalent XP.
I'm definitely the one saying that should be different.
The three example knacks you gave were all weird and ridiculous. And I cant think of any that wouldnt be.
DeleteEach stat has a couple(not several) options to choose from that help facilitate or influence combat. None of them actually are able to do anything in combat(and Im not sure about charisma, really seems like they have nothing).
Again, your physical vs social thing is just not true. Your physical character can participate just as much in the social scenes as the social character can. You just dont want to. And thats your choice, but the option is there.
I do not think there is anything wrong with those examples, except maybe the virility one was a bit of a stretch. Strength for intimidation has been around ever since I was playing around in the dirt with my childhood friends, for example.
DeleteEven if I roll with the assumption that each stat has only a couple options to choose from, which I adamantly do not, that is still more options that strength, dexterity, or stamina have to influence social or mental challenges.
Any option that may end up with your group asking you to change characters or leave the table is not a viable option. It may 'technically' be an option by the definition of the word, and I definitely hope we are not trying to argue semantics here, but it is not an option that anyone can use with any frequency and not expect to get ostracized.
Social and mental characters can get away with it almost all the time with only a fraction of the consequences.
You are, again mixing in game stuff with what the players around the table will make you do. You cant have it both ways.
DeleteIt is both ways.
DeleteEvery time you are in a tense negotiation and you decide to solve the problem by throwing a fist, then everyone OOC is going to be giving you dirty looks unless they also decide throwing a fist was called for,
Your friends will probably forgive this behavior a couple of times, but they are eventually going to run out of patience.
One answer to this problem might be to find more tolerant friends! I kind of feel like a better answer would be a way to use your physical stats during social and mental challenges. Even if those options cost precious resources. Certainly not enough to win such challenges, but a way to actively contribute towards the success of your team members.
I would really like some mechanical support for that.
Yes, if you act like an asshole people are gonna think you're an asshole. I dont see how that is relevant. Your friends shouldnt need to be tolerant. You shouldnt ruin the thing they're doing. We disagree that mechanical nonsense "powers" for physical characters to use so that they feel better during mental and social scenes is the answer.
DeleteThen please, I am genuinely pleading with you to give me a list of ways that physical characters can actively contribute to social and mental challenges.
DeleteWhat actions should I take? What rolls should I make? I want to be involved in the process and help my team out during social and mental challenges with my physical stats.
Be part of the conversation, first! You have threes in your social Epics, so you're not a pig in a ballroom. You may not be the most graceful person present, but you're also not automatically offensive, which means you can participate. Talk to the NPCs. Talk to your fellow PCs. Tell them your opinion, try to make your case. If you think there's a roll that has to be made for this to succeed and you don't think you can make it, give advice to the social character you know can make the roll. Hell, if it's really important to you, channel, Deed, bust off whatever other bonuses you've got and go for broke trying to do it yourself once in a while.
DeleteI'm not sure what your social scenes are like, but even if others are using things like Charmer or Social Chameleon all willy-nilly, that doesn't mean you can't participate and contribute by just being yourself. Sure, the NPCs won't like you as much as the guy who is awesomely charismatic, but they also won't necessarily dislike or ignore you. Your'e a person, you have enough social mojo to be in the scene, so talk! Do things! Make suggestions!
This does require some roleplaying, of course. If you've also got Epic mentals in the 3 range, you're smart enough that you should be able to follow most of what's going on and not make incredibly dumb suggestions. Again, the incredibly witty people, if you have them in your party, will be quicker on the uptake than you, but so what? You're still there, and what you say can still be important. A lot depends on what's happening and what you're trying to achieve and who you're talking to, but I would say there's almost zero chance that you can never be involved meaningfully in a social scene.
I mean, what do you do in social scenes right now? Do you just check out? Are you trying to do things but they're not working? More detail would help us try to give better advice. :)
I can sort of see where Anon is coming from, but am also confused. If you take John's heroic role system for instance, if you're a "combat" role, and you want to also contribute to some social scenes now and then – not at the same level as your Leader, but you want to contribute.
DeleteWhat I don't understand is, as the combat role, why not take some Charisma? Some Wits? This may just be an issue of how your ST runs game, but at least in John's games I've noticed that all our characters have secondary roles to fall back on and "contribute" in various ways.
As a non-combat role, you HAVE to take Stamina and epic stamina, because you WILL die otherwise...it just happens. All of my characters have ended up with agg damage at some point or another. You get agg damage, and need Regeneration to heal it. Isaac took Dex, despite being built for smarts and manipulation, because "social" and "mental" characters still need to survive and avoid damage. I've never once thought about whether it was "fair" or not – it just makes sense.
So why is it so unreasonable for a combat role to take a social stat and/or a mental stat as a backup? If anything, it just makes him a more interesting character.
Currently I'm trying my hand at a combat-focused character in a game. My first non-social character, actually; and it's ... you and John and fucking BLESSED to have the group you do.
DeleteShoot, there's even a blanket OOC rule that Social powers can't be used inter-party because two of the members are offended that control might be taken away from them even if it's perfectly IC reasoning. They're even trying to get me and the other Tuatha character to stop having piety because it's causing conflict.
Anywho.... So while my combat lass has some Charisma and little Appearance she just doesn't cut it, /ever/ against the other members of the party and always turning to someone else so they can make the actual discussion and such isn't fun at all.
Honestly, I do sort of check out during social scenes because when NPCs are running around with high MDV that can't be touched unless I blow everything in my arsenal for one maybe-sorta roll, it's not even worth trying. Failure in social scenes isn't fun, and watching the social characters stop combat before it even starts isn't fun either. While I'm not the OP, I can definitely sympathize with him.
Are you allowed to punch pcs? That seems like a strange rule, cause being dead takes all your control of the character away.
DeleteWould a "knack" that gives you like a one time help in a long social scene really make you check out less though? Like I understand the inclination, but its just like a straight social person in combat,they get to use their powers once, and then get back to letting the fighter do their thing.
Damnt...I said I wasnt gonna post on this one anymore but you dragged me back in aynie!
Those rules sound awful aynie :(
DeleteI don't think you as a combat role should get to take all the attention in a social scene - but there are other ways of contributing without doing so.
Oh, I don't expect to take control or even the use of knacks; but it's the knowledge that while my character is a very effective nuke waiting to happen, it's... there's not much I can do there.
DeleteHard to explain. Hrm. Ok. it's like this. Social characters can pretty much help out in combat because Quinn (my girl_) is basically always keeping attention focused on her. That's great and super and everyone can contribute to win. They're makin' rolls, they're throwing around powers, it's a good time.
Then we get to social scenes and Quinn's contributions are pretty much passive. Sure, I could stunt that she's glowering at such-and-such over the shoulder of the manipulative scion, but there's a lot of back and forth she can't contribute to because her socials just aren't high enough to make a dent in the respective group MDV. Like, I suppose I'm frustrated because when the social and mental folks help me out it really feels like their effforts lended to success. All I can really do is glower and threaten to punch things which tends to ruffle feathers OOC at best.
"Are you allowed to punch pcs? That seems like a strange rule, cause being dead takes all your control of the character away." That would be against an OOC social contract. :D
Being part of the conversation is great and I always encourage it! Unfortunately talking to NPCs, talking to fellow PC, sharing your opinions, and trying to make your case does not really have anything to do with your physical stats. That is just using your social stats.
DeleteSomeone with socials can walk into a combat scene and throw around mundane rolls, benefit of the doubt, calm the savage, engender love, filibuster, freeze out, snap out of it, blurt it out (tell me your weakness), god's honest, implant false memory, instant hypnosis, knowing glance, mass hypnosis, overt order, seductive mien, blinding visage, divine splendor, center of attention, perfect actor, come hither, dreadful mien, waking nightmare, loathsome presence, serpent's gaze, and compelling presence.
Six in charisma, eight in manipulation, and ten in appearance. All of these knacks have the potential to make a very meaningful impact during a combat situation. You can disrupt the enemy ranks, lock some enemies out of combat, or even make them attack their friends in some situations.
I've successfully played characters capable of winning entire combats with social powers!
Now lets look at the physical knacks to see which ones can give us a mechanical benefit during social situations. Disfiguring attack might give bonuses in a culture where maiming and scars are either smiled upon or frowned upon. Perfect Partner would definitely qualify. Photographic Penmanship would definitely qualify.
That's 2.5 options versus 24 options. Even if you argue the case for a few more physical knacks to be included, it would still be a terrible ratio. I would include mundane rolls but you guys do not allow things like strength + intimidation and the like.
Maybe something like 'Frightening Force' which costs some legend to use. It would add your dots of epic strength as bonus dice to your own social rolls and those of your allies for the rest of the scene. That might be a fun example.
I think the fundamental misunderstanding here is that you want to use your physical stats to affect social situations, and we're telling you that we are not down with that. It's been over and around and hashed through and that's where it still is.
DeleteWe're trying to give you some examples of way you can either use your physical abilities in a social situation (i.e., you can physically get involved with people) or use your perfectly adequate social abilities to be part of the social scene. These are both ways we would say that your character can successfully be involved and contribute in these scenes, in answer to your earlier comments about how physical characters don't get to do anything during a social scene.
But we are not going to sign off on using physical stats to power social abilities. As we've already both said, that makes no sense - the social abilities already exist the way they are for a reason, and if we wanted you to be able to pretend you had Charisma with Strength, that would exist already. Your examples above with Perfect Partner and so forth sound like stunts you would make to add to a social roll, not separate physical/social hybrid powers. We think powers like that are nonsensical, and furthermore that they have no good reason to exist in the game.
We get that you're frustrated that social characters can use powers in combat, and you can't use many combat powers in social scenes. But the answer to that is to find ways to meaningfully get involved in social scenes, not to try to invent custom powers that don't make sense so you don't have to invest in anything but combat. Combat and social scenes are intrinsically different for a lot of reasons - the most major one being that people can die in combat, and usually can't in social scenes - and that means they can and should be handled differently. Again, the social people have to be involved in combats, because there's a good chance they might die otherwise, and that's not an issue you suffer from as a physical character stuck in a meeting.
So if your only argument here is "But I want to have powers where I roll a physical stat and that has a social effect on everyone!", I don't think we can help you much more. We're not going to be down with that. If your Storyteller is, more power to you, but I don't know that I've got anything else left to contribute.
I think the biggest problem with this conversation is that allowing physical attributes to be rolled to gain some social benefit for yourself or your team makes perfect sense to me in certain situations.
DeleteIt does not make perfect sense to either of you.
I suppose that means I need to convince you both that they do make perfect sense, but I am not sure if I have enough dots in my social skills to overcome your resistance. :P
I was thinking about it, and I think another problem is one of where dual lines are drawn.
DeleteYou're thinking of it as Combat vs. Social Scene - social characters can use powers in both, but you often can only use powers in one.
Versus we're thinking of it as Physical Powers vs. Social Powers - social powers are used only to get social effects, and physical powers are used only to get physical effects. The social powers can be used during combat, but they still only get social effects (i.e., they can't deal damage or directly physically move people), and physical powers likewise should only get physical effects, meaning that if you use them in a social scene, they would still be physical in effect.
You're looking at a dichotomy of kinds of scenes, whereas we're looking at a dichotomy of kinds of powers. You're saying, "I want everyone to use all powers in all kinds of scenes," and we're saying, "We want everyone to use their powers only for those powers' spheres of influence."
So we're really talking about the inherent difference in how social things affect the game versus how physical things affect the game. They're very different and we designed them to be different on purpose. The reason we can't find any common ground here is that you're proposing giving physical powers the ability to grant social effects, which is counter to the entire point of both sets of powers for us.
(Talking about social powers vs. physical powers mostly in regards to Epics and knacks here - boons are a totally different kettle of fish, since they're about an elemental/primordial force and your control over it, and may roll either physical or social stats depending on the given power.)
I would not go so far as to claim I want "all" powers to be useable in all scenes, but a couple of options in each category would be great! Otherwise I think you have done a really good job of summarizing my position. I definitely think of it in terms of Physical Powers vs Social Powers and honestly believe that every attribute can have a way to have an active impact in each of the three 'arenas'.
DeleteSince I've mentioned the strength + presence intimidation roll several times before, I will run with that example for a little while longer and see where it gets me.
When I was growing up, and even to this very day, people who are very strong would always register as a potential threat to me. I was very aware of the fact that they could probably break my face. That's the kind of passive threat that John was talking about earlier.
There was nothing about this hypothetical person's charisma, manipulation, or attractiveness that made me nervous about the guy. It was the knowledge that he could seriously hurt me, which made me uneasy and nervous.
Enter the world of Scion where the scope of your physical strength does not tend to be noticeable. Certainly some Scions might walk around as giant piles of muscle, but many just look like particularly awesome humans. Or even stranger things. The range of possible appearances is nearly endless with things like unusual alteration!
So how do you broadcast the fact that you are so strong you could shatter every bone in their body with your pinky? You could pick up a battleship and wave it around, or some other dramatic display. Even if you personally have 0 epic socials, the realization that you could ruin their world in a major way should have a chance at unsettling them.
Boom. Right there you've got a strength + presence versus their something + integrity.
Right now there is no mechanical support for this very real emotional response. It's just left up to the storyteller to decide if that reduces the difficulty of something, or gives your social friends a bonus when they try to intimidate someone also. I would like to create a mechanic for this kind of situation; either a mundane roll that results in a dice bonus if you beat a resistance roll, or perhaps a knack that does something similar for a resource cost.
That's the thing, though - in Scion's game-mechanics universe, that big guy with all the muscles is impacting you socially, not physically. By default, he must have enough Appearance for you to register his presence and importance when he is around - otherwise, you literally wouldn't notice him. You're talking about his appearance being impacted by his physicality (he's strong, therefore he looks strong), but that's not him actually physically affecting you. He's not. By definition, his Appearance is what's working on you - he looks intimidating, you are intimidated. In fact, in Scion, he could have ten Epic Strength and not look muscled at all, or he could have none and use Appearance knacks to look like Schwarzenegger. Your Strength and your Appearance are two different stats, and they are not interchangeable. If you want to intimidate people with what you look like, you want Appearance, which already has plenty of powers that do that.
DeletePicking something up and making a display is definitely something that you can use to try to impact a social scene, but that's where we're disconnecting again - you want a knack that works against someone, whereas I'm saying that you can absolutely try to impress people with your ship-lifting prowess, but that's still not a social power. Sure, you wave the battleship around, great - your Strength is engaged in battleship lifting. It is not engaged in impressing anyone unless you are also impressive, however. If your social stats suck, your onlookers will say, "Ho-hum, he's just trying to impress us, pay him no mind," or "Ho-hum, these meatheads think their strength is always so important, loser," or "Ho-hum, it's so pathetic when someone tries to make up for their deficiencies with brute strength," or any other variation on that theme. Being strong gives you the ability to lift the battleship (something the social guys have no prayer of ever doing). It does not give you the ability to therefore rule the social scene, because again, your muscles are not the same as your ability to make people care about them.
I would actually consider letting you roll something like Strength + Presence in an attempt to impress someone with a feat of strength, but only as a vanilla roll, not as a power. That could fall under the realm of the Storyteller saying, "Sure, make a roll to give me a general idea how well you do that thing," but it wouldn't be against anyone's resist and it certainly wouldn't directly affect the social scene unless you had either A) the social ability to put social meaning behind your physical action, or B) the NPCs in question were already in some way favorably inclined (i.e., Ares is there and he likes a man who can juggle military vessels).
Strength, Dexterity and Stamina already give you massive powers. You have the ability to lift that battleship, climb that mountain, survive that wall of flame. They do not also magically give you the ability to impress people, though - even if you do broadcast your abilities, usually that will depend on the situation and your social clout. There are tons of people in the world who are excellent at things and can't impress, intimidate or make themselves liked by others to save their lives, and that's because they don't have any social stats. The physical stat is already giving you the ability to throw a battleship. It isn't also giving you the ability to therefore visit whatever social consequences on others you want.
Or, to address it more simply from a balance perspective: if physical abilities give you all these awesome physical powers, and then also let you strongly control or drive social situations, why would anyone ever take anything but physical stats? The world you're envisioning is one in which the physical characters win all the combats and fight all the monsters and perform all the feats of strength, and are the awesome movers and shakers of the social world, while the social characters are awesome movers and shakers but can still get easily killed or fail dismally in physical situations. Why would anyone ever play social if they could get all the same benefits and awesome durability and strength from being physical instead?
DeleteYou're proposing something that would fundamentally unbalance the game toward physical characters, and they're already pretty darn ahead of the game in a lot of areas.
You're wrong when you say there's no mechanic for the emotional response of being intimidated/impressed/bowled over by something someone physically does. That exists. It's the social stats. You are talking about physical characters who also have some social stats - in fact, exactly what you described with your guy who has 3s in his Epic socials. That's where I'm so baffled - you have social knacks, and you have social stats, and they can still have effects even if you don't have the maximum rolls possible for them, so holy cheese, why do you keep saying you can't do anything?
I honestly do not know how to respond to this. If someone lifted a battleship I would be incredibly impressed and scared of them even if I literally could not see who was doing the lifting.
DeleteI would be impressed and afraid of someone who was lifting a battleship, even if I could not see the person doing the lifting. It completely blows my mind that such a thing would be reliant upon the social stats, especially if I could not even sense the person in question.
I just.. it doesn't compute. I cannot connect the dots in any logical capacity. Maybe that's just a failing of my own? I can see why you are making the choice, but not how that choice accounts for all the scenarios I can imagine. With such a dramatic and fundamental difference in how we look at the mechanics of the game... I suppose I have to concede defeat once again.
But it was a pleasure having the conversation!
(please ignore the weird double sentence)
DeleteThat it was. Sometimes we have to just accept that we're the Irresistible Force and the Immovable Object and take a bow to one another. :)
DeleteThanks! I always worry that I come off sounding confrontational with my posts even when I am really trying to sound polite and friendly. I hope John did not get too angry with me this time. :)
DeleteImma just chime in one last time and say that I'm kinda with Anonymous. Mental and Social characters both have avenues to affect combat directly without investing in physical traits. There's Fight With Your Head, Compelling Presence and other effects, as Anon already mentioned. I don't think it's entirely unreasonable to want parity. There's a whole lot of discussion about how to involve non-physical characters in combat without them getting dead, but it's just as important that physical characters not just sit and twiddle during social scenes. No player likes being sidelined or told to go grab the group refills while the other players get to shine.
DeletePhysical effects should never be AS GOOD at affecting social scenes as Social Powers are, just like Fight With Your Head will never replace a decent investment in actual fighting abilities, but there should be some chance for a physical character to affect social scenes without turning them into physical scenes.
Also, I would like to be the Unstoppable Force, please. It's more dynamic.
DeleteThat's my point, though - this hypothetical character CAN affect social scenes, even though he's not as good as the social characters are. He has three Epics in all his socials. He has knacks. He's not going to be able to get the rolls the social people can, but holy cats, he can definitely do stuff in a social scene. Seriously. He has average social stats, he's not an elephant in tap shoes. (I suppose he could have taken all social knacks that don't help in most social scenes, like Doin' Fine or Never Say Die, but those were choices he made.)
DeleteIf all of a game's social scenes can't be affected by anyone who's not absolute maxed in their socials, there's something wrong with how those scenes are being run. If a physical character has absolutely NO social stats, he's decided to opt out of social scenes, and he doesn't need extra accommodations made for that decision. But if he has middle-of-the-road social stats, as our hypothetical dude does, there's no earthly (or Terra-ly) reason he shouldn't be participating.
Hey, let's not limit ourselves, we can always switch roles once in a while. :)
DeleteMmm... yeessss, that's true. But even Social/Mental characters tend to have SOME Physical traits, even if they're middling to low. They still get to affect smashy scenes with their *primary* traits, though, and are not forced to rely entirely upon their secondary or tertiary area of investment.
DeleteI'm just promoting equality between all three areas. The real challenge is mental, actually, where it's awful hard for a physical character to smart with their muscles. There can be arguments made for someone intimidating or impressing with physical traits, but braining with them is way harder to pull off. Dumb characters really are just outta luck when it comes to doing smart-people stuff.
My disagreement here is that I actually think there shouldn't be equality between some areas of the game, because what they do and how they work are already fundamentally different. The vast majority of social scenes do not include the likelihood that a single poor roll or wasted action might result in your instant death, and the vast majority of combat scenes do. Social characters have to invest in things to do in combat just to avoid dying and getting kicked out of the game, whereas combat characters complaining about not having enough to do in social scenes are in no such danger. Comparing the two kinds of scenes is fundamentally unequal, and complaining that the social characters get to use their stats when it's life-and-death and the physical characters don't get to use theirs when it's politics-and-tea is a false equivalency.
DeleteI do definitely agree with you that all three areas of stats should be equal, and we definitely strive for that. Physical characters have to be the front lines for battle and danger, mental characters are the only hope the group has to not make critical errors or go in circles wondering what to do, and social characters have to grease wheels that need greasing and get everyone to work together when necessary. But I don't think "physical, social and mental stats need to be equally important" is the same thing as "combat scenes and non-combat scenes need to be equally as manipulatable for different stats all the time", for the reasons above.
I mean, jeez, people are constantly whining at us about how unfair it is that the socials/mentals have to buy physical stats just not to die, where the physicals don't have that problem. Physical characters not getting to drive a political situation as often or as well doesn't compare at all.
Oh, and it's also a pretty heavy false equivalency to say that social characters using their maximum stats in a combat is equivalent to physical characters needing to use their maximum stats in a social scene.
DeleteSocial actions in combat do a lot of things, but they don't actually win the combat - they can distract, levy penalties, grant bonuses, even really big bonuses sometimes like Compelling Presence dropping a DV to zero for a moment, but in the end they are only helping powers for the actual people who can win (i.e., the combat guys). Geoff surely can blind everybody with his Divine Splendor, rolling his bananas-high Appearance roll, but that doesn't win the combat, or even come close to it. He still needs the physical characters to come do that for him, and those enemies with the -4 blindness penalties are still going to be able to come kick his ass.
Conversely, the proposed social effects for physical characters are every bit as effective and game-changing as the powers the actual social people have - powers that social people can already do, but with their serial numbers changed (i.e., basically Charmer for physicals, or Benefit of the Doubt but using intimidation instead of appeal). These kinds of things would allow physical characters to directly drive social scenes as effectively as social characters, whereas social powers used in combat are nowhere near able to do that. If social powers could actually kill enemies in combat, then sure, but they can't, so this is again not an equivalent situation at all.
(Again, talking all about knacks and Epic rolls here, because boons are a total Whole New World on their own. There are social-rolled boons that can kill people, but also physical-rolled boons that do the same, and anyway the purviews are about very different things, game-representation-wise, than the attributes and knacks are.)
I don't understand why Anon feels that a combat-oriented character has nothing to do in a social scene, to the point where they feel so marginalized that they may as well leave the table and go on a snack run. To me this sounds like an error not with the game, but with the ST running it and/or fellow players around the table in their roleplaying treatment.
DeleteIf you're a combat-oriented character you can still interact with NPCs and roleplay...that's something you can do sans-mechanics. Sure, social-oriented characters will have mechanical ways to affect that social situation (disregarding the fact that you, the combat-oriented character, could also use said social knacks as well if you were so inclined). However, when it comes time for combat, there is NO "sans-mechanics" way for the social character to interact with that scene. Combat is PURE mechanics...so yes, there are some mechanics-driven powers that help non-combat types eke out survival in those situations. I just chalk that up to combat and social scenes being different beasts...they aren't equal, and I don't get why Anon wants them to be.
From my experience in my groups, most social scenes are resolved by roleplaying, with very light mechanics, and maybe the odd use of powers here or there at a critical point. Combat-oriented PCs totally get involved in those scenes with roleplay... that's something to do... so why are you bored?
You can be involved in a scene without needing to take control of it. It's up to your ST to give all of their PCs a chance to shine in different situations – not to make all situations a mechanical grey area where anyone with any stat can solve the problem...to me that just dilutes the challenge and reward of having a diverse band/team in the first place.
Social characters remind me a lot of D&D wizards the way they can blow a few powers and completely win small scale fights. Meanwhile the strength of the fighter is to keep going and going. That kind of strength does not get to shine in shorter combats.
DeleteI'm playing a character right now with all three socials. I could show up to a combat and multiple action hard sell every single round. This would lock down 100+ people for a very long time if I wanted. But I genuinely feel bad for the combat characters, and tend to hang back to give them their time in the spotlight.
Also, a bit late, but you lifting a battleship probably isn't actually impressive to any divine being. Oh you can lift that? So can plenty of other guys, want a cookie? They may not have seen that particular thing lifted but they've seen and known many gods and such that could lift that and possibly more. And if you want to threaten them with it, I'd imagine they'd be well aware that they could pummel you into not wanting to do it with their socials, pulling some epic charisma to make you love them for instance... so why should they be afraid either? The only cases I can see this working ( to impress or scare ) is if they're both significantly lower than you in Legend AND are not aware of legendary things of such a level... so like a mortal, and in such a case you likely have plenty of other ways to walk over them anyway!
DeleteAddendum: Maybe as a stunt if you suddenly got a lot of powers to lift it that you were completely short of and they both haven't heard from anyone that you can do it, and couldn't themselves sense you getting this much stronger through either fate or perception... but that's like a one time thing, and only as extra dice in stunt fashion. I'd still ask for socials to either impress or intimidate.
DeleteI think the battleship thing is a matter of scale and what you are used to. If I understand the argument right, if someone uses ultimate strength then Anon says that should have a social impact. If someone uses ultimate strength then Anne says that should not have any social impact unless you also roll your socials.
DeleteMy argument still applies then. Divine beings have likely seen someone pop ultimate strength before, and if not are still capable of knowing that people can do it and it's really not all that special in a social standing (again unless like in the Ares example, I suppose). I think the only time such should in and of itself cause fear is if you do it without them noticing and you're already attacking them, but then that's not a social thing, that's combat. If you pop it socially, then again, I don't see why they should be impressed or afraid.
DeleteSeems to me like they just want to be a munchkin and invest in only one thing and yet be able to do everything. I'm waiting for someone to try to argue Dexterity or Stamina for study sessions to make them learn stuff so they also don't have to get mentals, or Dexterity for their eyes moving around fast so they don't have to get perception. Or, in a line similar from a vlog using ultimate dex to move very fast so you should do tons of damage so why get strength even?
Each attribute seems to be pretty well defined to its limited scope, and I don't think there needs to be this bleeding over thing... which really boils it down to these attributes are magic, they work differently than they would in other settings.
Same with the boons, Cloud Shaper or w/e can't make rain or thunder storms, you just magic the clouds around.
It sounds like you are metagaming, whichever Anon you happen to be. I've seen people shot, and I am capable of knowing that people can and will shoot other people, but it never ceases to be a really traumatic thing. Even friends of mine who are soldiers have suffered long term debilitation from seeing that kind of thing over and over again.
DeleteThere's no reason that wouldn't apply to divine beings dealing with divinely traumatic events.
Metagaming? Maybe. Making sure that one stat/set doesn't become the 'get this stat/set to win' stat/set? Yes. It's primarily a balancing issue. If physicals can do social for you, why bother getting socials?
DeleteBecause socials do it better, cheaper, and faster than the alternative? The same way mentals can already help you with socials? And your comment works both ways. If socials can do combat for you, why bother getting anything but stamina?
DeleteThey can't do combat for you, that's one of the major points. You can use social knacks to help you escape a combat, or put some penalties on the enemy, or give bonuses to other combatants, but you can't use them to defeat/incapacitate/kill the enemy. Which is why it would be basically unequal to make physical stats just as capable of succeeding in social situations, when that is already not true in reverse.
DeleteI kill people with social combat all the time. The only person I cannot kill is the last man standing after I've forced everyone else to kill each other. Or I run out of resources.
DeleteYour ST needs to make things have resistance. And those things should be murdering you when you fail.
DeleteThings do have resistance, but when you can hit multiple targets at once some are going to resist and some are not going to resist. Then you can make some of the ones that don't resist protect you from the ones that do resist. If the ones that don't resist are taking hits from the ones that do, then it's just speeding up the slaughter.
DeleteRinse and repeat until everyone has killed each other. If more resist than do not resist, then you've got followers to take hits for you, and band members with physicals to take hits for you, while you rock the whole combat with socials.
Only real danger is a bunch of AOE and running out of resources. You can't rock every single combat that way, just some.
Actually, no. You're still not winning with social stats. You're using social stats to get some physical people in here because they're the only ones who can win for you, whether they were originally on your side or not. The social stats themselves still can't win a darn thing.
DeleteAnd that means that just having the social stats still isn't comparable to having the physical stats. What if you're fighting things that are strong enough to hurt you but not each other? Have really great resist rolls? Are all aligned with the same element that doesn't hurt them but melts your face off? You're boned, and that's because as the non-physical person you still don't have the power to actually take care of the problem yourself.
Versus, if the proposed physical-based social knacks were put into effect, physical people would have the ability to just win with their physical stats. It's still not an equal equation.
Now, I think that since social stats spend a lot of time boosting or moving around physical people to help them succeed, something that was the reverse could maybe work - for example, maybe a physical knack that had to do with doing something so bananas that the intimidation factor adds to your buddy's social roll that he's making at the same time? I still don't love it, because it's still fundamentally doing things social knacks should do, but at least it would be the same kind of effect as the social powers have on combats.
If you can command two dozen people to throw out two agg attacks of their own, then all that damage is yours. You made them do it. It's on your score card.
DeleteIf you crowd control dozens of people into standing around and picking their nose while your DPS delivers the coup de grace, then that victory is yours. It's on your score card.
The same way if someone uses a fire boon to add damage to your buddies attack. That buff is yours. Any damage it does counts for you. It's on your score card.
You're like an old school everquest echanter. You walk into a room, mez and charm everything, then walk out with the biggest guy left alive as your new pet. Sometimes your charms fail and you get aggro, but that's what party members are for.
Things strong enough to hurt you but not each other? All aligned with the same element that doesn't hurt them? Turn them into your loyal minions. That's an option no pure combat character has. Converting an enemy into an ally. Then everything he does is on your scorecard too.
If the enemies have really great resist rolls, then save your legend and sit the fight out. Just because you can rock combats does not mean you should rock combats.
All this talk of "scorecards" is telling me that we're not having the same conversation. You're talking about a social character being effective in combat, which no one is disputing is true; of course, if they manage to pull off a social effect that triggers a chain that does stuff, they were the driving force there. No one is trying to say that a social character's actions don't "count".
DeleteBut I'm talking about what the stats, themselves do, and social stats, point-blank, cannot kill enemies. Neither can mental stats. Physical stats are the only things that can do that. Of course you can use your social stats to help or convince or try to nudge physical people toward doing it for you - that's what social stats are meant to do! But that does not translate to "therefore, social stats can kill people". They can't. They can get people who can kill people to work for you sometimes. I'm talking about the actual things your powers do, not the overall end result of the scene.
The point here is that without physical characters, social characters can never win a combat. They can escape; they can negotiate their way out of it; they can hide; they can confuse the enemy into attacking something else; but they cannot win. If they want to win, they need someone with physical stats as an intermediary, whether it's a buddy they buff, an enemy they hoodwink or a wall of unfortunate cannon fodder for them to hide behind. If there is no physical character in the scene for them to affect, or if they are unable to affect the physical characters that are there, they lose the combat automatically. There is nothing they can do to kill those enemies.
Again, the original point here was comparing the fundamental difference between social people using their stats in combat and physical people wanting to use their stats in social situations. We're not debating whether social people can do important and useful stuff in combat; we all know they can. We're talking about the fact that even though that's true, they can never win by themselves using only social stats; and therefore it would be fundamentally unequal to give physical characters the ability to succeed at social scenes by themselves using only their physical stats.
A physical character can do his very best to make six aggravated attacks with between the ticks, blitzkrieg, and disfiguring attack. This costs him 39 legend and 2 willpower.
DeleteA social character can convince a small army to make dozens or even hundreds of aggravated attacks with hard sell and between the ticks. This costs him 3 legend and 4 will power.
The social character is laughing all the way to the bank. Saying that his stats are not doing the killing is like saying a man with a gun is not doing the killing. Technically you're right, but when you're pulling the trigger technicalities don't matter to the guy eating a bullet.
Saying that social stats cannot kill people is like saying people cannot kill people social stats are not responsible for the kill is like saying the people who pull the trigger on guns are not responsible for the kill
(double sentences are getting very weird)
DeleteSomeone trying to negotiate their way out of a conflict, or charm their way out of a fight, is perfectly reasonable, especially if they aren't a combat-oriented character. Someone starting a brawl in the middle of a tense negotiation is being disruptive (I speak from GM'ing experience). It all depends on the GM's style, and the make-up of the party, but random acts of social interface are a lot more conducive to game flow than random acts of punch-throwing.
ReplyDeleteThat's very true, but I'm not advocating starting a brawl every scene, just accepting that sometimes the physical characters will take physical action without their party's approval, and that has to be handled like any other time the characters are being unexpected or off-the-wall. Someone punching every person they meet is being a disruptive pain in the ass, but someone who sometimes decides to take physical action in spite of the rest of the party's want to talk politics is not being any more disruptive than the social character who hijacks someone's scene with unexpected schmoozing.
DeleteFor example, there are famous times in our games when Sangria has flown off the handle and killed someone that she really shouldn't have - not because she wanted to hijack the game, but because she genuinely thought it was a mistake to try to talk to them or give them the chance to escape. The game's other characters were upset and pissed off, but that's an in-character consequence, and they adjusted by realizing that they had to include her possibility for violence and plan for it accordingly.
Anne and I have been discussing this purple. I think its too out of context to know the exacts. Like, the characters past relationships and dealings depend a lot on how they deal with the situation. Characters that choose to be together vs characters that are forced together via fate or parent's demands.
DeleteLike if the pcs are together because its convenient....you dont need to kick the player for being disruptive..the other pcs should just leave him(and then you can tell the player to either make a less disruptive player or leave).
Or if parents or fate has stuck everyone together then that becomes an interesting part of the story. The other pcs have to deal with this problem person that they've been strattled with. (and personally, if as a pc, i couldnt control someone like that Id plan his demise).
Yeah, it's totally a case-by-case situation, I agree. Sometimes violence [or violent PCs] work in the game, especially if it's good role-playing. And sometimes someone's just being an unimaginative dick, and they need the rubber chicken treatment. :-)
DeleteSocial characters can always throw around social powers in combat with (usually) minimal consequence.
DeleteMental characters can always throw around mental powers in combat with (usually) minimal consequence.
Maybe it would help to get a big list of socially acceptable things a physical character can do to meaningfully contribute during a social and mental challenge?
Minimal consequence? Usually if they do stuff the enemy charges right for them.
DeleteThe enemies were probably charging right for them in the first place, unless they have some kind of belief system (or virtue) that prevents them from engaging someone until they take an action.
DeleteI think he means that enemies generally attack whomever is being the biggest pain in their ass in a combat. They'll whale on the physical character who's hurting them if the social guys stay out of it, but if the social characters start tossing powers around, they'll kill them first to get them out of the way. It's always more risky for a squishy character to take an action in a combat, thus possibly getting noticed and murdered, than not.
DeleteHi everybody,
ReplyDeleteI am Alex, I play Russel, the punchiest , drunkiest, knuckle draggiest kids in John's Gangs of New York Game.
I have to say this is a little surprising, even as a full out combat character I am curious to why you think you cannot participate in social scene? Sometimes just having the towering brute flanking your social character can by his presence alone add to their intimidation factor.
But even then I know I spend plenty of my time enjoying social scenes even if Russel isn't an expert, they are certainly fun and his challenges in talking to people are part of that fun.
You should (If you're playing by John's rules, if not then that may just fix your problem) have a decent enough spread to be AMAZING at one thing, and pretty good at another. So that even hulking Russel can have a social scene from time to time, whether he would like them or not.
And, again at least in John's game, Combat is brutal. If I don't end up being knocked out before the end of it, it's a blessing. If I didn't have my social/mental buddies using their boons/knacks to help me out I would probably die. I love those guys, even if it's just helping in a co-ordinated assault. Plus as far as in character motivation, a combat character (if he isn't a psychopath) shouldn't be looking for fights, he is the last result. The live preserver for his band mates when they just can't manage to talk/think their way out of a fight.
I would say if you're finding yourself in the role of a combat character, make sure you have a secondary role.
Look at Ares, he is charming/sexy enough to get the hottest lady on Olympus (Don't tell Hera I said that.) while also being king of murder town. Be like Ares, would be combat guys.
Because Ares gets all the ladies.
I think a lot depends on the game in question and how it's being run, too, which is something we don't know about the OP's situation. Is he a "physical character" in the sense of being primarily stacked for physical but still capable of being a normal person in other areas? If so, he should still be able to participate in social scenes - giving his two cents, giving advice to the social folks, interacting and talking. Just like the social characters are maxed for being social but hopefully have at least one Epic in things like Dexterity or Stamina, it's not at all out of the question that he might have a social trick or two, even if they aren't his mainstays or they couldn't win head-to-head with a maxed opponent. He doesn't have to be standing there like a post just because he doesn't have the maximum in a social stat.
DeleteOn the other hand, is he so thoroughly minmaxed that he fails or botches all social rolls? If that's the case, he's set himself up to be utterly incapable of participating in social scenes, in which case I'm not feeling too sorry for him - he chose to be bad at that aspect of the game so he could be really good at another, just like the guy who took no physical stats isn't going to get much of a pass from us when he complains that monsters are killing him in a single shot.
As the OP my situation is a demigod with all physical epics at 6 and most of my socials and mentals at 3.
DeleteBut it's not specific to me. I've seen lots of games where the physical character is twiddling his thumbs.
Well then it seems your physical character is doing it right, and these other physical character you see in a lot of games are doing it wrong. Maybe you should coach them?
DeleteCoach them on what? Even with social and mental epics around the 3 range I don't have enough successes to beat the challenges presented by the storyteller.
DeleteOf course, I don't expect to beat those challenges because I have invested my XP in combat things. But I do want to actively contribute to social and mental challenges with my physical stats the same way that social and mental characters get to contribute to combat.
So contribute. The social characters arent "using powers" in those situations, they're usually just roleplaying. So roleplay during those situations.
DeleteYes, they are using powers and making rolls.
DeleteThats strange, most social situations in my games dont really involve powers. A charmer when it starts, maybe a power here or there. But roll and power-use-wise is nothing NOTHING close to a combat where they could use 100 powers/rolls in a scene.
DeleteThe physical characters use powers and make rolls during physical encounters. The social characters use powers and make rolls during social encounters. Both describe their actions with stunts. The physical character might spend a few minutes detailing the awesome nature of his attack, and the social character might spend a few minutes giving an actual speech.
DeleteI don't know what to say about the fact that you do not roll the latter. I don't know whether that qualifies as good or bad. Maybe just different?
You roll once for a 10 minute speech, you roll 300 times for a 10 minute combat. That is vastly different. And there are VERY few powers, even for social characters that they are using during that speech.
DeleteAssuming you are giving equal amounts of screen time to both the combats and the social situations, you should end up with about the same number of rolls for both. 300 times in an extended combat and 300 times in an extended social encounter (though 300 would be pretty enormous event for both by my standards).
DeleteThis might be 10 minutes of combat or 10 hours of socializing from an IC perspective of course.
O god, 300 rolls during a social event sounds just horrible. Im not sure what game you're playing, but that just doesnt happen and shouldnt.
DeleteAnd to highlight my earlier comment, even if those are all rolls for some god awful reason, they arent power uses.
300 rolls for either a social or combat event would be a pretty epic undertaking by my standards. Probably something that would take the entire game to resolve, but I was just rolling with the number you offered. :P
DeleteBut it does not matter if they are power uses or not, because the discrepancy between the two exists within both powers and mundane rolls. :P
Pretty epic....but normal for combats. Attackers are rolling twice per attack, sometimes 4 times per attack plus using other powers.
DeleteYou are arguing for powers, theres no social useful combat things that arent powers, so you ARE arguing for only powers. Get your damn argument straight.
I'm arguing for both! Powers are certainly the easiest and most visible answer, but adding base mechanics to the game that let you help out your friends with your physical stats would be awesome! I know Scion RAW has those old teamwork rules but it seems like you guys do not use those?
DeleteMy hopeful goal would be to have both core mechanical support and some powers to enhance it!
But you do help out your friends with your physicals all the time. You keep them alive in combats - that is way helpful. Possibly the most helpful thing ever.
DeleteI think maybe you should check in with your Storyteller on this one. If you're feeling like you can't do anything in half the game's scenes, tell him/her that, and ask for advice. Maybe they don't realize it, or they've been expecting you to participate and don't know why you aren't; maybe they're open to you taking physical initiative once in a while, and you guys just need to establish some ground rules for how to do that without being disruptive. Most of your fears here sound like out-of-character ones, and that means you need to resolve them out of character.
Because John is right. Combats by nature take more "real life" time than the same amount of "in game" time for social scenes, because many things happen in a single second in a combat, whereas the social scenes are played out closer to real-time. You should never make the same number of rolls, because the social people don't need to make two to four rolls every second, and that would be miserable to try to roleplay anyway (how would you ever have a conversation?).
But, more importantly, if you have 3 Epics at Legend 6, why don't you talk? Why don't you say hi, put in your two cents, get involved? Okay, sure, so you can't necessarily beat someone else's high resist roll with a social power, but you can still make your opinion known and your voice heard, give advice to your friends who can beat the roll, make friends or enemies with your roleplaying. There might even be social situations that don't have a maximum difficulty that you could overcome, which you'll never known unless you get involved in them. Or maybe it's a super important thing that you really want to be able to do, so you channel and Deed and succeed even though you're normally socially inept. There are lots of ways to participate, meaningfully and for the betterment of the game, without having maximum stats. Are you doing those things?
You seem stuck on this idea that if you can't use a power, you can't have fun, contribute, and be part of that part of the game, and that's totally not so. If anything, you're lucky - the social guys have to blow their resources to participate in combat, but as long as you don't botch, you can just be part of a conversation for free.
John and I have already said why social knacks that roll physical stats are a terrible idea, so not much more to say on that. Physical stats underpinning a social roll make no sense whatsoever, and all the things you've described would be powers we would attach social stats to.
Mmm. I'm not sure if I agree that it's never viable to roll Physical Attributes for social tasks. Strength + Intimidation seems pretty valid to me. Especially because it often IS valid to roll Social Attributes for combat tasks, like using Social Knacks that improve your DV by distracting the attackers (Aurora), or using your Intelligence to reduce someone's soak by isolating weaknesses in their armor (Fight With Your Head).
DeleteOh, I just noticed the OP's example idea of a potential Stamina + Presence roll to impress someone with your virility. I love that. I gotta remember that for later.
DeleteI've had a character roll Dexterity + Socialize before. They were trying to chase after a thief that had just picked their pocket in the middle of a fancy, formal ball. They needed to move fast (Dexterity) but also extricate themselves from the ball without offending anyone (Socialize). The player in question stunted her butt off and pulled some very impressive successes, allowing her to escape and track down that weasely Night Caste. She very much enjoyed it and would continually ask if her next roll was Dexterity + Socialize.
Intimidation is directly a Charisma effect, though. You can be the strongest person int he world, and if you can't be impressive about it, no one will care. I would definitely say that there's some onus on the Storyteller there, however, to say, "Hey, if he lifts a battleship in front of these people, they should be impressed by his strength, if not by him as a person," but it's not something that I think can or should then be weaponized into working like other social stats. He can certainly make a statement with his strength, but that doesn't translate to a mechanical ability to therefore make social rolls he is normally bad at.
DeleteOtherwise, anyone could always make social rolls by doing anything - there are no Scions who can't do something impressive, so why stop at Strength? if he gets social clout from lifting heavy things, why can't I get it from solving a complex math equation or building a castle out of ice or whatever else flashy stuff I can do, right? - and therefore there would be no point to having the social stats in the first place.
Ha, I would totally let someone impress someone else with their virility vis-a-vis Stamina if they were actually having sex with them for hours. Not so much just for existing, though. "I have a big Stamina score" doesn't mean much when you're not doing anything with it.
DeleteI think in the same case you describe, we would have probably used Wits there, to describe being able to both keep up with the thief and avoid upsetting the ball - or possibly two rolls for the two different things. That's a difference of ST style, though. :)
I think, since you love custom powers and we disallow them, that you're going to definitely be more open to the kinds of things the OP is suggesting than we are. :) OH! But I forgot to mention, we have occasionally done stuff like this via relic bonuses - that is, a relic that allows a Scion to substitute an attribute for another one in specific situations.
For example, Hachiro had a relic that allowed him to substitute his Wits for Charisma when using specific Death boons. He was a horror writer and had a great ability to think up scary stuff, but wasn't as great at being commanding, so his divine parent sank his points into a very fancy relic to help him pick up the slack in that specific area. That relic and others like it are typically very expensive because they're super powerful, but they would be the way we would allow a character who really wanted to specifically use X thing where it's normally not appropriate.
There's also the little point that since Scions are, well, magic, not every Scion with Epic Strength will look strong. Here's looking at you Amaterasu. And Kali for that matter.
DeleteI will say that I've seen (and experienced) pressure from both other players and the Storyteller for non-Social focused characters to shut up and sit down during social scenes. I do understand where the OP is coming from, and it can be a very frustrating feeling. Yes, physical characters always CAN start shit, but then you run the VERY real risk of offending not just in-game people, but your fellow players and your Storyteller. It's all well and good to play a chaotic, bull-headed fighter that Hulks out all the time, but it very quickly wears on the patience of people that want to play a game that doesn't operate on a Violence-based economy. Clearly, the Social and Mental PCs' players DO want to do non-violent things and will get upset if you keep ruining their plans with your desire to smash stuff.
ReplyDeleteLets say your character "only" has Charisma 3, with no Epic. You better not even open your mouth during a conversation with a visiting God or you'll offend the crap out of them by trying to introduce yourself. Then your Physical stats *will* come into play since you just started a fight.
The social characters (and their players) can also get very touchy about a character with low Social stats being roleplayed by someone who is fairly articulate and 'cheating' in this way by having just as much persuasive force and influence as their Social character does. Why even bother investing in Social stats when a social PLAYER can compensate for his character's shortcomings with good roleplay? This attitude tends to lead to the first situation above, where the ST has NPCs react negatively to fairly innocuous things said by non-social PC's attempting to engage in social roleplay.
Social stats in RPGs have always and will always be touchy because by their nature they deal with the free agency of players, not just characters. No one likes being told what to do or how to react to things, but that's exactly what mechanized social interaction does. It's a significant psychological barrier to overcome in game groups that aren't composed of very good friends. Even in groups of very good friends, it can be contentious.
I'm not saying John and Anne are wrong, but their view is informed by them having a great gaming group primarily composed of people they're friends with and have built up a high level of trust with. That isn't the case for all gaming groups, and in less familiar situations where that trust isn't as well-developed, social stats cause all KINDS of problems. Even just two people in a game having different opinions on how social stats should work is a recipe for disaster in some cases.
Taking the temperature of your group is always very important because of different makeups and personalities, that's definitely true! Some games let everyone do whatever they want even if it's bananas, and others throw giant player-kicking tantrums the minute someone deviates from the Storyteller's script. Most are luckily somewhere in between, but only you will be able to figure out what your game is likely to do. If you're in the OP's situation, i would say your best bet here is to ask your ST - "Hey, I feel like I don't get to do anything in social scenes, are there any ways i can change that/will you guys get mad if I take physical initiative once in a while?"
DeleteI think I've been assuming that the OP was playing at Hero-level, since otherwise I'm not sure how they could possibly have nothing whatsoever except for fighting stats, and therefore assuming that gods are not involved much... but I could definitely be wrong. I also don't know what kind of XP scale they're using, so characters could be getting to high levels without any non-combat powers, or what kinds of encounters they face (some STs use gods right out of the gate). There's a lot of unknown that makes it hard to give good advice. : \
Yours is good, though, Source - check in with your group and see what they're willing to tolerate and have a good time with!
Oops, just saw he answered some of my questions above. That's what I get for sleeping!
DeleteThe Orlanthi culture is Runequest/Glorantha has the perfect saying in this regard: "Violence is always an option."
ReplyDelete(Their second most important saying is "There is always another way", so violence might not be a *good* option, but it always *is* an option.)
"I need money."
Delete"Rob a bank."
"That's horrible!"
"But it is an option."