Question: You've designed a lot of summoning boons. How useful have they been in your games? They all seem like they are combat-oriented, but how useful can they be against gods that are specced for combat? I'm not trying to sound critical, I don't doubt that they ARE useful, I just would like to know how so.
Well, you're not wrong about one thing: most of the mid-to-high-level summoning boons are not meant to be able to go toe to toe with a fully maxed-out god of wrecking things. They weren't designed to be replacements for actual combat characters, nor to make the elemental boon-users who call them up immune to combat problems, so if you're coming at them thinking that they're supposed to be able to take out your mortal enemy, you will be disappointed. A god that has truly invested in murder is going to be able to cut them down pretty quickly in a one-on-one fight.
However, they are in fact useful in combat in a myriad of other ways! One is simply that they are bodies you can hurl at your opponent, and in Scion's system, that's always helpful. Thanks to the five-man rule, once at least four people attack the same target, the fifth person gets a shot at them at a DV of zero, which means that if you summon a bunch of elementals, they may not do much damage on their own but may be able to give your resident badass a perfect opportunity to wreak delicious agg-soaked mayhem on an enemy from behind. This ability to overwhelm with numbers can also help people who aren't quite combat-heavy enough to hurt an enemy under normal circumstances be able to get in a few good shots. Having large numbers also makes your little army perfect for including in Coordinated Assaults, which, with enough participants, might give everybody a chance to make a dent in the opposition.
In addition to helping with big enemies, summonable creatures also make fantastic crowd controllers for combats in which there are more than one opponent or in which a large monster brings a bunch of little monsters with it. They can soak up hits that would otherwise be murdering your bandmates, buy time for people to use their powers to best effect, and mop up smaller, less dangerous opponents on their own, freeing you and your friends from the danger of being overwhelmed or taking damage from anything but your central foe. They can also do things during combat that need doing but that aren't fighting - protecting civilians, for example, guarding important items, supplying the fighters, or anything else that you and your bandmates now don't have to do so you can concentrate on the battle instead.
Also, while elementals (and even the big showstopper creatures, like the Flame Beasts and Water Beasts) aren't usually able to compete with truly badass fighting gods, they can still help you out with enemies who are less maxed out for beatdowns, and you will undoubtedly encounter a few of those in your adventures. Even the mid-level elementals can theoretically get pretty beefy; if you choose to just summon one and use all your extra successes to buff its stats, it can get up to where it can compete with middling-level Scions and monsters. Sowiljr can get a 100 on his Charisma + Command roll pretty easily, which means he can send a Frostborn Spirit in with an attack roll of 50 dice + 10 autos, soaks of 40 and a DV of 35, which is probably about comparable with a high-level Scion who hasn't really decked themselves out for combat all that much. It's not going to take down an Eztli, but it could probably manage to handle a Terminus, at least for a little while.
And, of course, they can also do non-combat things, like building stuff, guarding stuff, running errands, looking impressive when you want to be impressive, and all of that (in fact, that's all the third-level summoning boons can do anyway, since those creatures won't fight for you at all). They're not going to take over combat so all your battle Scions can go take a coffee break, but they're still versatile and useful for a lot of different things, and we've enjoyed watching Scions use them.
The Five-man rule?
ReplyDeleteDoes this work for mortals too?
And does the 6th person also get a 0DV hit?
Okay, I am being a dunce again, bear with me. In the original Hero book, this is referred to as onslaught penalties, and the system was that for every number of people equal to your Legend - 1 that attacked you, you gained a -1 DV penalty.
DeleteThis was unwieldy and messy and didn't model real combat very well anyway - it made it so that mortals, who have no Legend rating at all, somehow had a theoretical negative number for their DV (but then again, the original book is terrible about mortals anyway), and meant that it would take 28 people attacking a Legend 4 Scion with middling stats to take him down to DV zero. I don't know if anybody out there has ever been in a multiple-person brawl, but I'm pretty sure we are all aware that it's impossible to even make room for 28 people to all punch the same guy at the same time, and that the point of "oh shit, I am way outnumbered" comes well before then.
I seriously feel like the 5-man rule must be somewhere in the books, or at least a common house rule used by a lot of games, because I distinctly remember discussing it with people on the old White Wolf Scion boards (which are now defunct, of course, so I can't go look). So if it is a house-rule, mea culpa, I am once again being awful and assuming everyone in the world knows how our system works without being told.
The five-man rule is this: if five people attack a single target on the same action, the fifth person gets to hit them at zero DV. This is meant to model the general way that when five people attack you, they are surrounding you in such a way that it's almost impossible to defend against all of them; you're going to have your back turned and vulnerable to at least one of them. This totally replaces the unwieldy old onslaught penalties system, although in extreme cases (like, there is an army coming at you) we do also sometimes apply additional DV problems.
There are powers to help you get around the 5-man rule - the most important one is the Wits knack Monkey in the Middle - but for many combatants, it's a serious issue.
If you're using the old onslaught penalties system, summoned creatures can also help out with that, albeit less effectively. They can also be called in as part of Coordinated Assaults or participate with a Scion who has Perfect Partner for additional DV bonus opportunities.
Yes it works for mortals. A 6th person can never get the attack in. The rule is that a max of 5 people can melee attack you.
ReplyDeleteThank you for being way more concise and useful than I am. :)
DeleteAlso note that more people can attack you from ranged even if you already have 5 people on you in melee.
DeleteWould the 6th attacker in range also get a 0 DV hit?
Deleteand would there also only be 5 people able to attack, say, a kraken or Cerberus? ('Cause, that would be a little silly when thinking their size contra the normal human's)
I would think the general ruling should be something along the lines of... only 5 people of similar size as the target can be in melee with the target. So if 5 Krakens beat up on another Kraken, 5-man rule would apply. But I think common-sense wise, 5 humans on a Kraken isn't going to bother it as much. Not sure how that would be reflected mechanically though.
DeleteMaybe say that for each (abritrary) size increment the target is above its attackers, it can handle another x amount of attackers before getting hit at DV 0 by the last?
I thought so too, but i dont think all huge beasts would be able to hold off more attackers. I feel that would require more brainpower or limbs, rather than just work with size.
DeleteIf I recall correctly, I agree with you two that there is the 5-man rule, and a max of 5 can attack you at once in melee.
ReplyDeleteThe Onslaught Penalty - if I recall, was for if x (you legend + 1) number of attacks directed at you before your next action (DV refreshes), you suffer a -1 to DV's.
So, if after you have acted, 6 guys happen to shoot at you (not taking into account coordinated assaults, then 5 guys charge and attack you, a few things happen, (let's say you are legend 4 and rocking a 11 DV)
1.) after the the first 5 guys attack you, your DV is lowered by 1. and again after the next 5.
2.) you have DV 0 for the fifth melee attacker.
3.) against anyone else who may attack you before you can act, your DV is lowered by 2 versus their attack.
True, Monkey in the Middle helps out. Throw in Warrior Ideal, and they would need to have a coordinated assault to have any real hopes of hitting you.
So your DV would be
Deleteafter the first 5, DV would be 10, then after the tenth your DV would by 9.
Again, this doesn't take into account other DV modifiers (Defensive Do-Overs, Coordinated Assaults, your previous actions, use of boons and knacks, and so on...)
The way I understand it (though wait for John to back me up on this)... Onslaught works just like you described except for two things:
Delete1) It only takes 5 (ranged) attacks to trigger onslaught. The sixth attack will put you at DV -1, regardless of legend.
2) The seventh attack will put you at -2 DV, the eighth will be -3, and so on – I don't think it's in 5-person increments.
It certainly makes getting mobbed very dangerous, and makes the Monkey in the Middle knacks all the more useful.
I wonder how it stacks with the 5-man rule though... If 5 people attack you in melee in one action, the 5th gets you at 0 DV. Using your example of the guy with 11 DV, say on the next tick (before the target's action refreshes) he gets shot, will he be at -1DV for onslaught penalty applying? Or does onslaught only apply to ranged attacks?
My first inclination is to disagree with you on that, though I admit I could be wrong in my recollection of what I read. Regardless, I believe the person would have a -1DV penalty against that shot. Also, according to my understanding, Onslaught Penalties applies to both ranged and melee.
DeleteI believe the reason why they had it set to x number of attacks equal to Legend +1 is because it doesn't matter if each attack hit or not, also each attack from a multiple action counts towards this.
These rules (Onslaught, Coordinated Assault, and 5-man rule) were originally introduce in Exalted's combat system.
Again, I admit I could be wrong. :-)
Rasmus- I would go with a gm ruling on that one. Personally, I would say no.
ReplyDeleteThe sixth attacker in range, would hit you at your regular DVminus your penalties (such as onslaught, and other factors)
They have replaced all the other onslaught DV's with just the ''Five-man rule'' though,
DeleteSo, with only that rule, would Bard the Bowman get a 0DV hit? if his 5 melee companions hit the evil dragon at the same action. Would he be able to count as the 5th attacker if he had 4 melee companions?
Who has replaced the onslaught with the 5-man rule? I was under the impression that those were both in the rules together to give combatants a variety of options depending upon the circumstances.
DeleteIf I recall, the 5-man rule was solely for melee. I could be wrong.
''The five-man rule is this: if five people attack a single target on the same action, the fifth person gets to hit them at zero DV. This is meant to model the general way that when five people attack you, they are surrounding you in such a way that it's almost impossible to defend against all of them; you're going to have your back turned and vulnerable to at least one of them. This totally replaces the unwieldy old onslaught penalties system, although in extreme cases (like, there is an army coming at you) we do also sometimes apply additional DV problems.''
Delete-Quote Anne
What I meant I could be wrong about were my recollections of the rules from the book.
Deleteyou may be right, but that would still mean that, rather thwan ''replacing'' it, that is the only part of that system that they use.
Deletebut my biggest thing is ''how does the 5-man rule apply to monsters that are 5 times bigger than a person?''
It would be rather silly if there could be only 5 attackers on it, but it also seems rather unbalanced, at a glance, if every attacker beyond the 5th got 0DV on huge targets.
I could see a couple solutions to this, but i would like to know which one John and Anne uses, if any?
I wouldn't use the five man rule in that case, onslaught and coordinated assaults, possibly...
DeleteFair enough, I am curious as to their opinions as well. :-)
^.^
DeleteI will say though, in a game I ran, the player were in a similar situation, and they had to rely upon coordinated assaults and onslaughts. I did rewards their stunting and creativity though in other ways.
DeleteSummoned creatures are also great for the national sport of the Theoi - sending horrible monsters to ravage the lands of mortals who displease you
ReplyDeleteTruest of facts.
DeleteNot sure if this has been answered already, but I see that boons like Frost- and Flameborn spirit, extra successes add to the stats of the summoned creature. However, the higher level Flame and Frost Beast boons specify no such thing. Should the same numbers for the earlier level boons be assumed, or instead should it be taken that you just can't increase their stats?
ReplyDeleteHmm, I see what you mean - the boons make you roll but don't tell you what your successes actually do. I believe you're right and it's the same scale, but let's wait for John to wake up and confirm for us, and I'll fix the descriptions when he does. :)
DeleteI have a question about the 5-man rule and onslaught penalties in general. What if you are being attacked and allow some of them to hit you while focusing your defense on the bigger threats. Like there are 2 gods and 3 elementals attacking a combat god. Can the combat god choose not to dodge against 2 of the elementals, choosing instead to rely on his soak to negate their damage, and focus his dodge efforts against opposing gods and remaining elemental?
ReplyDeleteYes, you can always say "I'm not dodging X enemy" if you want to; that person will automatically get to hit you at 0 DV. However, you can't necessarily negate the 5-man rule that way, because they're surrounding you and attacking you on their own initiative, and may not cooperate. Sounds like mostly an ST call to me on whether or not ignoring one enemy will allow you to try to get out of being surrounded by others - it may or may not make a difference, depending on how you stunt and where all your enemies are in relation to you.
DeleteAttacks happen simultaneously, so the defender basically gets to pick which attacker is the 5th man. So always choose the least dangerous looking one. Sometimes that doesn't help and you get surprised, though.
ReplyDelete