Saturday, June 16, 2012

Subject to Change

Question: Since the Maya are on my mind, I have to ask... how are Maya-Aztec relations in your game? Are Scions of gods like Tlaloc or Quetzalcoatl considered Scions of the Maya pantheon, at least nominally, if not in PSP?

Oh, dear. Maya-Aztec relations in our games are not good at all. The more warlike Aztlanti tend to view the Maya pantheon as less-powerful failures who couldn't keep their territory as a result, and while the real Aztecs didn't subjugate most Mayan territory since it was out of their way in the jungle, the Aztec gods have had no compunctions about declaring themselves the sole overlords of Mesoamerican myth and have over the years killed off most of the less important Maya gods (sometimes to squash uprising, sometimes to make points, and sometimes just because conqueror cultures get really bored without anything to do). It's fairly similar to the situation between the Dodekatheon and the indigenous Italian gods; in theory everyone "gets along" and "lives together", but in practice one side is way more powerful and the other really can't do much about it.

(Note that it's looking like I'll be working on a Maya pantheon sometime in the future, and that while we have plenty of ST notes on what we do with the Maya and their gods in-game, we haven't previously done the full in-depth pantheon workup treatment. So some of this landscape may change significantly for that supplement, but I'm running here with what we've been doing in our games to date.)

Those gods among the Aztlanti with Maya roots (Quetzalcoatl, Tlaloc, Xochiquetzal) are considered full members of the Aztec gods, and have indeed been in the pantheon as long as it's existed, but they're likely to also consider themselves members of the previous pantheons as well (not just Maya but Zapotec, Toltec and Mixtec as well, depending on the god) and to be somewhat more sympathetic toward them than purely Mexica gods like Huitzilopochtli or Tlazolteotl. They aren't active in the older pantheons anymore, but are sort of nominally members of them anyway, the way Vayu might be considered a Deva despite being a member of the Yazata or Lugh might be considered an honorary Nemetondevo despite being firmly one of the Tuatha. Gods have occasionally also used iconography from their previous incarnations when they appear or interact with their Scions, including Tlaloc using a turtle (traditionally associated with Chaac) to talk to Kettila or Xipe Totec leaving artifacts for Scions to find that look suspiciously like the tonsured Maya maize god. I could absolutely see one of their Scions choosing to identify with a non-Aztec version of the god, either on their own or because the god presented him- or herself that way, just as a Scion of Kalfu might view themselves as a child of Eshu or a Scion of Haoma think of themselves as the offspring of Soma. (They would still have Itztli, though, unless they wanted to go the full nine yards and switch pantheons to the Maya permanently.)

Sadly, PC interaction with the Maya deities has invariably been violent and unpleasant. Two of the Maya gods have been killed by PCs - first Camazotz, who made the mistake of trying to be the dominant bat over Eztli, and then Ix Chel, who was dismayed to discover that the negligible Legend 3 Norseman she'd used as captive breeding stock was now Legend 9 and really upset about seeing her again. Camazotz got better (until Eztli made him dead a second time, anyway); Ix Chel didn't. (To the PCs' knowledge, anyway, but they haven't checked on the Maya situation in quite a while.) I suppose, in a game with the poster-child for Aztec world dominance, none of that should be very surprising, but no one's really bothered to investigate what the Maya pantheon is doing or how exactly the political situation stands at the moment.

I'm very much looking forward to one day getting a Maya supplement together to do more with all this, probably taking some of it in different directions. Maybe it'll be my birthday present to myself to finish it - except that since my birthday's December 21st, I'd just be fueling all the silliness if I shot for that date, wouldn't I?

7 comments:

  1. Hostilities, yippee!

    Yeah, I wasn't thinking that the Maya and Aztec gods were exactly shiny happy people holding hands, but I didn't anticipate this level of antipathy.

    Of course, I tend to play more pacifistic* Scions, usually of Quetzalcoatl. Heck, my signature character is explicitly an ethnic Maya (Kekchi, because I'm nothing if not ludicrously thorough) who interchanges his dad's names at the drop of a hat. He'd probably try and build some bridges between the Aztec and Maya in a "hang together or hang separately" sort of thing.

    Of course, the fact that he named his jaguar nahualli Ix Chel probably wouldn't go down well with the goddess Ix Chel.

    ... Man, I'm starting to wish I was anywhere NEAR North Carolina. Your games are awesome.

    * "Pacifistic" here being a relative term. My Scions still goes for ther daily heartburgers

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    1. Mmmm... heartburgers.

      Someone probably should be trying to mend fences between the Mesoamerican pantheons - it's not like the Europeans are all lining up to be nice to them, and they at least share fundamental common understandings (like, for example, heartburgers). Unfortunately, when the flagship Aztlanti character is a Scion of Huitzilopochtli, there's less cooperation than one might expect out of someone whose dad doesn't have a reputation for curbstomping all other Mesoamerican civilizations in record time.

      Dude, we would love you to be close to North Carolina, too. You could hobnob with us and Brent and Telgar and the Baron. It'd be fabulous.

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    2. I would love more hobnobbing! I haven't had a chance to hobnob with Brent or Baron.

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    3. Hobnobbery would be nice, but the commute from New York is prohibitive.

      Yeah, Huitzilopochtli ain't interested if it doesn't concern curbstomping. Course, you also have to find the right Maya gods (By the by, what're you thinking for a pantheon name? K'ul Ahau ("Sacred Lord"), maybe?). Running into Huracan or Tohil could be just as unpleasant as running into the Left-Handed Hummingbird.

      Oh and I just caught this on the reread: You syncretize Xipe Totec with the Tonsured Maize God? Not a complaint by a long shot, it works, especially in Scion (My professors would smack me if I said that Tlaloc, Cocijo, and Chaac were the same guy)... my question is, the Mayanists I work with tend to conflate the Tonsured Maize God with Hun Hunahpu, the father of the Hero Twins... So... too much of a six-degrees-of-Kevin-Bacon stretch there for Scion, or what?

      And finally (For now), I do have a only-tangentially-related question... How would you work a jaguar nahualli Birthright for a Hero level Scion, 3 or 4 dots?

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    4. The only written work I've seen on the Mayans so far is from Demonchilde: the K'iche Sub-Pantheon. It was pretty interesting, but very sparse. Demonchilde didn't take the idea of sub-pantheons very far, so there's almost nothing that distinguishes them from the Teotl.

      Is there enough there for the Mayans to get their own PSP? Or maybe just a slightly modified version of the Aztec PSP? I have only a cursory knowledge of Mesoamerican cultural practices and mostly it's Aztec.

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    5. We don't directly syncretize XT with the Maya god, but he's nevertheless used some of his symbols; without giving away plot for the players, they really don't know if the two gods were one and the same, he's decided to usurp the other's iconography, or something even weirder is going on.

      I was considering Ahau as a pantheon name, though I hadn't really made any firm plans since I'm busy making plans about other things at the moment. The addition of K'ul is a nice one, since it gives them a bit fancier a name than your average mortal king.

      I think the Maya could definitely have their own PSP... as soon as I have time to work on it some more. :) We were strongly considering something having to do with cycles of time/world/etc. as one of their strongest religious themes; the bloodiness is clearly still there, but it was always at its height for the Aztecs, so they should probably keep the ultimate mastery of it.

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    6. Ooh, you want dots on something? Back to you, John, do you birthright magic. :)

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