It's been a long, strange trip... but we're finally here. Say goodbye to Industry, and hello to Artistry!
We were really not ready for the scope of this project, I think. This thing went through what feels like ninety jillion perzillion rewrites, each one more frustrating than the last, as we tried to find a way to work with the incredible complexity of all the possibilities of things that can be created by smiths and artistic gods across different cultures' myths. The permutations felt endless, and so did the workload. We reoriented and redesigned and reexamined and refitted and rewrote, and after eight rounds of this still didn't know what we were doing.
Eventually, we realized two important things: one, that in order for the purview to work it needed a solid crafting system beneath it, and two, that we were approaching things from a fundamentally flawed angle when it comes to what crafting really is and how it's used in ancient myth.
So, to begin with, we present new rules for crafting. It took us a long, hard look, but we eventually realized that, like many of Scion's other features, the Art/Craft/Science split was a relic holdover from the World of Darkness that didn't add anything to the game. Sure, specializations are all kinds of fun, but they weren't helping Scions actually do their jobs well, and often they were dissonant with the very mythology the game is based on. What does something like Science actually mean, mythically speaking, and how is it different from Academics? What's the difference between Art and Craft, and how to we represent them interestingly but without making life needlessly harder for players?
In the end, we finally arrived at the simplest solution, and that's this: Craft and Science, as abilities, no longer exist. Anything that involves making, planning or performing now falls under Art, and anything involving theory or knowledge now falls under Academics.
This is a really good change, and we're really excited about it. To begin with, Craft and Science were covering a lot of things that we separate into categories in the modern day - theories, experiments, building projects, craftsmanship - but that, in the societies that the ancient gods came from, would actually be considered arts. Stonework and masonry were arts, as were woodworking and weaving, smithery and food preparation. And if all these things are arts anyway, why are we splitting them into three abilities when one can cover all admirably? There was no good answer, so we are happy to leave Craft and Science by the wayside and let Scions flourish without them. (Not to mention there are now fewer pesky specialized abilities to suck up XP, eh?)
Art still exists, of course, and is still specialized - you can buy Art (Goldsmithing) or Art (Singing) or Art (Basket-Weaving) or whatever your heart desires, and make and perform all the way into the sunset. And the Artistry purview will help you do that, because the other half of our changes involved realizing that, if the mythical landscape treats crafts and arts as basically the same thing, then why do only the crafters get to use the purview, when there are performance artists and visual artists who are doing the same conceptual thing?
So Artistry was renamed and reworked, and now provides an awesome toybox not just for the Hephaestus Scions of the world who want to make magical armor and rocket-fueled cars, but also for the children of Hathor who are orators and dancers, or the children of Athena who create wondrously complex clothes and paint new masterpieces. Art, music, building and creation are all encompassed within Artistry.
We are super, super excited. Please ask us about whatever you want, and we hope you enjoy all the awesome new stuff!
(By the way, you'll see several small changes around the site - in activation rolls for boons, in knacks that have disappeared thanks to now being redundant, in the associations of gods who had the obsolete abilities, and so on. Most of them should be just fine, but if you see something that looks wrong or find an old term still floating around, we'd love it if you told us!)
EDIT: Oh, holy crap, I forgot to talk about what's next! Titans have won the poll with a fairly commanding lead, so our next project will be a Titanrealm or two! I hope you guys are ready for some hugenormous bad guys!
The poll to the right will be reset in a couple of minutes with new projects to vote for, so stay tuned!
Question about your DC's. Where they pulled from the book's guidelines for abilities, or are these approximations from your own rules?
ReplyDeleteThey're our own approximations. The ones from the books usually work okay for Hero levels, but become totally useless once Scions get to Legend 4 or higher.
DeleteI'll admit I wasn't that excited about this project since I've never imagined playing a Forge God...but HOLY SHIT!!! You guys just (effectively) gave me a Music Purview that I've wanted forever!!! Seriously, you guys rock!!! :D
ReplyDeleteSide Note:I am so happy that Cradlesong is out of Health!
P.S. How come Sarasvati lost Guardian?
P.P.S. The table for Tool of Fate is a bit kooky.
P.P.P.S Can Mystical Masterwork work on music recordings? Can I use Forgery to perfectly copy a musical performance?
P.P.P.P.S. Have you considered giving Shiva, as Lord of the Dance, Artistry?
P.P.P.P.P.S. (OK, this is getting out of hand) Can I use Uncreation to remove the memory of a song from the World?
And last one, promise, how does Ex Nihilo work with performing arts? Does it temporarily create actors for a play? Does it create musicians out of thin air, or just music?
To reiterate, I love Artistry!!!
I'd agree, but I think they might miss the understatement.
DeleteSeriously, guys, really well done. Thank you.
Awesome, I'm so glad you like it! It was a lot of work, but we feel SO MUCH BETTER about it now!
DeleteSarasvati's Guardian was something we kinda shoehorned onto her - it was based on her Buddhist persona more than her Hindu one, and we were never very happy with it. Now that we had a new purview she totally needed to have seemed like a good time to swap it back out.
Tool of Fate table fixed!
Hmm, all good music-related questions. We definitely want as many boons as possible to be cross-useful (though of course a few will be performance-only or craft-only), but I'm not sure on those questions. We may need a little time to chew Ex Nihilo and Mystical Masterwork over; as written now they don't do that, but we should give them a last look to decide if they should.
We are assuming that Shiva has several levels of Artistry, but not the Avatar. :) It's a tricky purview to differentiate from simply having Art associated, but we're trying to restrict Artistry to gods who really embody the idea of creation and/or do a lot of different creative things. Shiva is a badass performer, but creation is kind of counter to his whole persona, so he doesn't get the purview associated.
Your guys' excitement is awesome! Whee!
When I picture Artistry I envision some of the more "physical" brush techniques from Okami. Like the cute "tiny" lily pads. That doesn't really jive with what Shiva does.
Delete@Anne: I'll look forward to the answers. As of now, I get the feeling that Music Gods could use a bit more versatility beyond play better and put people to sleep.
DeleteAlso, will the new Titanrealms be Maya and Emamu , or have you changed your mind about putting out the adversaries for the core six first?
@Bryan: True that. Shiva does not do lily pads.
Performance artists who refuse to do any crafting type arts can still use about half of the boons. Which is the target we were heading for. But that is also the reason why performance based gods who only perform dont get the purview associated.
DeleteAlso, many performance things can be done in tandem with the already bountiful social knacks.(many ideas we had for music boons were just ripping off social knacks).
True about the social knacks, though I'm always in favour of having multiple ways to achieve the same result, powers wise.
DeleteAbout the first point though, iirc, neither Sarasvati nor Apollo do any crafting, do they? In fact, in Apollo's case, it's explicitly Hermes who created the Lyre. Apollo just plays it.
It's true, Hermes invented the first lyre. Apollo does in some versions of Orpheus' story create the magical lyre the hero took into Hades, however.
DeleteHe's probably the one we were most on the fence about, but for the moment, pending possibly introducing some more performance-y boons, he's staying in on the strength of his body of myths in which he actually does a lot of performing arts (his competitions with Cinyras and Pan/Marsyas, his function as leader of the Muses, et cetera).
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ReplyDeleteWeird, I thought they updated. Fixed now!
DeleteYou make an excellent point - Obatala should be in that august company. Updating!
Ah, yes, I suppose I caught them un the middle of updating. They're perfect now. Which is why the Devas QR is still stuck at Science.
DeleteThey're fixed, too. There was an error in their address, so the new page hadn't overwritten the old one properly. :)
DeleteJust an editing note, in the crafting example for the quiver of ammunition, you've got "in the belly of a slain manticored", pretty sure its a typo of manticore.
ReplyDeleteOops, thank you. Now fixed!
DeleteMixed up in the center of a Manit-cored apple.
DeleteSo, a few questions:
ReplyDelete1) Why the change to Fundamentals from successes to dice? It feels like Arete just got a lot more powerful in comparison.
2) Self-built machine - come back to me my precious!!! I only got to use you once!
3) I think that some of the difficulties may need to be reexamined a bit - as I can't imagine a, competent craftsman even non-divine, spending ~36 hours putting together a sledgehammer.
4) As much as I like the boon - Gears of the World/Music of the Spheres - I feel like it's more appropriate to the Prophesy purview than the Artistry Purview.
5) With "Science" being changed into "Academics" is Academics going to be subdivided into sub-categories - or will Joe the botanist also suddenly also become Joe the nuclear physicist? If it is going to be sub-divided, are there any plans to give academics something similar to the "Polyglot" boon?
6) With the changes of Concept to Execution effectively being for non-Artistry crafters, does the knack have any utility for those who do have the purview?
7) Did we lose both Renaissance (Wo)Man as well as Smith Among Gods? Or just one? If we lost both - could we have one back please for the arts?
6) Lower Legend Cost = Less worrying about Fatebounds. Seems obvious that it would be an easier way to make Sci-fi stuff without worrying about fateful complications ("Robot Love" anyone?)
DeleteSure John'll roll in here at some point, too, but before I hit the sack tonight!
Delete1) The balance tradeoff here is that Fundamentals is now free and applied to all rolls; it no longer costs Legend every single roll of a project, which is a major benefit. It is less potent than Arete, but it's also supposed to be; PSPs are always slightly more powerful than APPs. Also, Greeks can have both of these things, so we wouldn't want them to stack to a stupid level.
2) Self-Built Machine is gone, along with all the other boons that were some variation on "thing you make has X new quality/bonus", but the good news is that those are all now handled in the crafting system itself. If you want your new object to have a bonus, just include that in the plans for creating it, and it'll add to the normal difficulty of making the thing.
3) Will have John look at it again!
4) There definitely is a bit of Prophecy overlap here, but its short-term effects are less prophetic visions of the future and more an uncanny ability to make accurate guesses based on universal clues - more like having super awesome wittiness than actually knowing the future.
5) Academics remains unspecialized, but things that used to be covered by Science will be splitting their time between that and Art as necessary. If it's something like the scientific details of computer specs when a Scion's trying to write some kind of code or design a machine, that'd fall under Art (whatevers). If it's book-learning or theoretical stuff, it'd fall under Academics. We've talked about splitting Academics before - even out of the box it covers large swaths of things like literature and mathematics and languages and so on - but there doesn't seem to be any benefit to doing so.
6) Hmm, at the moment CtE is intended for those who aren't Artistry-focused to still be able to dabble in crafting, but it would be nice if it gave some bonus to those who have both. Will revisit.
7) We did lose both of those, as well as the related one in Intelligence. They've been replaced by the Artistry boons Polymath and Artisan of the Ages, which do what those used to do but better.
Lemme try to hit these, anne did most of it.
Delete1) Fundamentals vs arete at level 1 is just 1 dice for 1 dice, they're completely even. After that, arete costs buckets of xp and fundamentals gets better for free as you buy more boons that also do other things. People with arete also have a different psp that does other neat stuff in addition to fundamentals. But yes, a greek with anything vs anyone else at that same thing will always win. But they had to spend "x" ridiculous amounts of xp to be good at that one thing.
2. Yeah, you can now do that without the boon. Not it exactly, but more varied versions of it.
3. That role isnt for putting together a sledge hammer. Its for making a sledge hammer from iron ore and a log. Smelting, carving, casting, many processes are involved.
4. Prophecy, in scion, tells us what will be, not what might be. There are rare cases where incredible resistance(and magic) might change fate, but fo rthe most part, its always gonna happen one way or another. This boon instead measures all possible outcomes and knows what would happen down a certain path. Not because fate intends it that way, but because of millions of minute computations and knowledge of how the world, and all creations in it, work. Also...one of the few boons that didnt change at all(got bumped up a level).
5-7. I think anne covered everything.
Uh, actually there still is an EXP-cost cutter for Art:
DeleteNatural Leader now includes Art?
But art(along with all the other specialized abilities) used to have knacks that gave you completely free ability dots.
DeleteYeah, you can still get discounts through Natural Leader, you just don't get free dots unless you have the Artistry boon that does that now.
DeleteMy fault, thanks for pointing it out.
DeleteOn the same note: Natural leader makes sense for all performance artists of sorts, but what is with smiths, carpenters and so forth?
Shouldn't they get a possibility to gain an XP-discount on Art without going into Charisma?
Hmm... this is a good point. Craft used to be on Star Pupil, and I wonder if that might be a good place to put Art. It'd be on two knacks, but there are a couple that are like that already.
DeleteShouldn't the boon Polyglot be Polymath? I thought Polyglot was many languages, while polymath was many skills(or something like that)?
ReplyDeleteThat... is totally true. Lemme go fix that!
DeleteConcept to Execution also needs to be fixed. It lists Polymath as a prerequisite.
DeleteDarn, I thought I got all of the knacks. Thank you!
DeleteThe actual prerequisite is "fast learner". How appropriate...
DeleteI'm really looking forward to sinking my teeth into these and seeing what ideas I can come up with!
ReplyDeleteIn the meantime (I'm sure you guys saw this coming), what Gods would you give Artistry to from the likes of the Alihah, Apu, Elohim, and K'uh, if any?
Damn, every time. :)
DeleteKothar of the Elohim definitely has Artistry - that's a guy who knows how to craft some badass weapons in the heat of the moment! I don't think the K'uh, Apu or Alihah have anyone who's a shoe-in, although Viracocha, Itzamna and Ix Chel all probably have some boons in the purview.
Thanks! :)
DeleteI know it's probably a borderline case, but given Uke Mochi's mastery over food might be comparable to a smith god's mastery over the forge, would you consider her to have it associated, or is she just likely to have a few levels of the associated foodie boons?
I'd say she probably has plenty of Art (Culinary) and probably several levels of Artistry, but maybe not the full-on Avatar level. Depends on whether you see her as more of a preparer of magical foods or a being that vomits food out of her body, because the second is pretty far outside the usual Artistry scope.
DeleteInteresting. I'm guessing you and John are leaning towards option two.
DeleteOnly sort of related, but now may be a good time to update Vestiges of a Distant Past to include the Annunna on the site proper, porting it over from Fiddly Bits.
We did that last night, thanks to you reminding us (holy crap, how did we add the Bogovi and not notice the Anunna weren't there?). :) Yay!
DeleteOn Nectar and Ambrosia boon it says you can grant sustenance to up to as many people as you have Industry Boons, pretty sure you meant Artistry...
ReplyDeleteSo we did - thank you!
DeleteShouldn't Bragi have Artistry as he is the Norse God of poetry?
ReplyDeleteDefinitely! I hadn't changed him because he isn't playable for us at the moment, but he's definitely rocking it as one of his associations.
DeleteIn case anyone is wondering, we didn't do updates to the Amatsukami, Shen or Nemetondevos, as they aren't updated at the moment. If you're using them, use your judgment, and definitely give Gobnhios access to the new Artistry purview.
Just figured I should have started with: Great work guys and thank you very much! Because it's truly awesome!!!!!!!
Deletethank you!
DeleteI just want to start by saying that no matter what you guys create, you always go WAY above and beyond what's expected - you guys have the Artistry purview, seriously! This project was one I felt would be mostly for your players and wouldn't change the face of the game the way some of the other options would...but damn! Just damn! You did it again. You made Scion so much better.
ReplyDeleteNot only is the crafting system so streamlined and amazing, but you just solved the endless "Music" purview debate while simultaneously making Industry so much better and FINALLY relieving myself AND my players of the misery of not having Science (Computer) once and for all. You guys are so awesome.
But the thing I love, more than anything else from this, is that there are tons of Gods with Artistry now. My players and I have, for years now, wanted to play a Scion with Industry, but it was always the hardest to justify unless you were a Scion of Hephaestus or Ptah (or an Anunna with the Me) - now pretty much any symbol of creation, a pen, a quill, a tapestry, even some beautiful creation like a dream-catcher could be used as a suitable Artistry Relic instead of the overdone "Hammer that gives you Industry."
It fits so much better with mythology while simultaneously giving you room to improve as a Scion - just as the game should be! Oh my god, you guys, this is the best project ever!
So having gone nuts over how much I love it, I do have one tiny nitpick...I feel like Quetzalcoatl and Dionysus should have it too. Dionysus was the patron god of the theatre and it seems weird he doesn't have it. But I can excuse it with him because I could see him having maybe Art (Drama) with maxed Arete but never really "perfects" his craft in the way other Artistry Gods do.
Quetzalcoatl, on the other hand, is the closest thing the Aztlanti have to a dedicated craftsman, and considering he's the wisest teacher and creator of Mesoamerica, I think it would make sense for him to "perfect his craft" as an Artisan. I guess I could see him having maybe like 9 dots in Artistry, but that's no fun. :(
Also, Lugh's abilities read "Emapthy" now.
And this post is probably going to get swallowed by the mouth of Mot, until Anne drags it out.
(Good job guys!)
You are too kind. Thank you!
DeleteLugh fixed, and jeez, man, you're making us blush!
DeleteWe did consider Dionysus, who does have strong connections to theatre, but in the end decided there would have to be guidelines about who has Artistry versus who just has Art. As with other purviews, we're shooting for things that a god actually does in mythology, rather than just things that they represent (although there always might be exceptions for truly epic cases of representation or whatever a god has going on). Dionysus is patron of the theatrical arts and they are often performed in his honor, but he doesn't really do them himself, so we ended up deciding not to give him the Avatar of the purview. Quetzalcoatl's a similar thing; he has some connotations as a cultural/artistic god, but it's not something he actually does himself, so we assume he has Art but probably not the whole kit and kaboodle of Artistry.
I understand, though it's sad the Aztecs have no one to hop aboard the Artistry Wagon. Then again neither do the Aesir, the Yazata, the Pesedjet, etc.
DeleteBut you mention Quetzalcoatl having Art but not Artistry...he actually doesn't even have Art. It's something I've long wondered, actually - his lack of Arts or Crafts. It seems like he should have Art associated at least, doesn't it?
You know, while he's sometimes called a patron of the arts, the only artistic thing we've ever seen him do in his life is blow a conch shell (often used as a musical instrument by the Aztecs) while parading around Mictlantecuhtli's throne room in order to distract him. His strongest connection as a culture-giver is the invention of things like the pictorial writing system and calendrical cycles, but those more properly belong under Academics, so that's what we gave him associated. He probably has some Arts, but his stories are usually more about his exploits in helping kill monsters or hoodwink the death realm than anything art/craft related, so we ended up not being able to justify Art for him.
DeletePtah of the Pesedjet does have Artistry though.
DeleteThe Aesir have a guy, too - Bragi's just not Legend 12, is all. But he's rocking some Artistry if brave players want to play his kid anyway!
DeleteXochipilli would probably be an Aztec god with Artistry.
DeleteI'm sure his sister Xochiquetzal has some Artistry boons as well.
DeleteYes, I remembered Ptah right after I wrote that. I guess I meant more 'new' Artistry people, and Ptah has always had Industry. And as for Bragi, I'm really glad he's now equal to his wife - Charisma and Artistry compared to her Fertility and Health. Everybody's Legend 10! (Bragi and Idun are my favorite unsung heroes of the Aesir. Unsung because Bragi's the one doing all the singing!)
DeletePoor Quetzalcoatl. But I can get behind that. I guess he's only as artsy as you can get when you're a giant feathered serpent.
I think the "lullabye" boon shouldn't end with an "e".
ReplyDeleteEither spelling is correct, actually. With an "e" is the older English version, which was a concatenation of "lulla", a nonsense word from "lull" meaning to convince someone to sleep, and "bye", bidding the child farewell to go to sleep. "Bye" is also used in the English farewell phrase "goodbye", which ironically does use the "e" ending more often even though "goodby" or "good-by" is also technically correct.
DeleteSo you can use either spelling, and I'm just partial to the E. :)
Huh, sorry about that. Honestly thought that was a typo. Oh well "the more you now".
DeleteNo worries - I think without is more common, at least in the US. :) Thanks for checking - if it had been a typo, I'd have wanted to fix it!
DeleteArtisan is a better name than Artistry!
ReplyDeleteI think that's the wrong kinda noun, though.
DeleteLike Animal, Sun, Moon, Psychopomp, and in certain contexts Darkness and Earth.
DeleteHeh, both things we actually said to one another while deciding on the name. :) We did consider "Artisan", decided that it didn't entirely fit noun-wise because it referred to a person rather than an area of expertise (the only other comparable one would be Psychopomp), and ended up making it Artistry, which is the same kind of noun old Industry was.
DeleteBut if it makes ya more comfortable to call it Artisan, by all means, do.
I can't decide which one I like more.
DeleteArtistry has the dreaded glottal stop, which is getting phased out of my regional dialect like an 80s mullet.
Artisan flows smoother, but can run into some strange linguistic places. "She has 3 dots of Artisan" is fine, but "I am a God of Artisans" is a little more strained.
I was pullin hard for artisan but anne made many good points about "how english works" and won me over.
DeleteIf we all just spoke greek or german or something these boon names would be easier and sound way cooler.
Technically, the right noun form would be Artisanry... but that would probably be clumsy for most people.
DeleteWhile you are updating the associateds on the site and whatnot, do you have any plan on also updating the associateds on the PDF pantheons, or at least give us an "errata" list on the site?
ReplyDeleteMan, I thought I answered this last night! Consider Kothar, of the Elohim, to have Artistry associated, and where possible convert gods that have Craft or Science to Art instead. If they already have Art, there will probably need to be more tinkering.
Delete...man, this would be so much easier if they were just on the site with everyone else, you feel?
Speaking of Kothar, with Craft and Science disappearing, now he has only four associated abilities. What would be the other two associations for him? And when it comes to the gods with Science, should I convert it to Academics or Art?
DeleteAlas, most of the heavy crafting gods had that conundrum come up! I would suggest replacing Craft and Science with Politics and Survival for Kothar, illustrating his ability to influence decision-making of the high and mighty and his connections with distant places and travel across the desert.
DeleteIt'll depend on why a god has Science, honestly. If they have it because they use it to invent things, it's probably going to Art; if they have it because they're a theoretical genius, it should probably go to Academics. I noticed in our rewrites that Academics was the appropriate stat more often than Art, if that helps.
Thank you :D
DeleteUnder the new crafting rules, how do you handle the planning phase for items you have made previously? For example, Joe is crafting his second handsome cherrywood curio cabinet, or Heph is crafting his millionth thunderbolt? Can you just use the existing planning phase?
ReplyDeleteIt actually says in the rules that as long as you either have Perfect Memory or you wrote down your blueprints, you can make as many as you need with the proper materials and labor.
DeleteSo if Joe has the blueprints he made for his handsome cherrywood curio cabinet, he can easily make another one without thinking the whole thing through again.
And Hephaestus has Ultimate Intelligence, so it's a pretty fair shot to assume he also has Perfect Memory, so he can make a millionth thunderbolt without a second thought.
Whoops! I botched my perception + awareness roll. Sorry about that! :)
DeleteNo worries - we tried to make it more chunk-able, but it's still pretty much a giant wall of text. :)
DeleteSquee!
ReplyDeleteNow I just need to find a scion group to play with or *shudders* run my own game.
Run your own game! Think of it this way - you get to play all the Gods and Titans. :)
DeleteDont shudder! Kick some ass.
DeleteSomething I was wondering: There are a lot of Indian legends about special Ragas, songs that if performed by individuals with the proper talent and training can do things like summon rainstorms or infernos, and it got me thinking...a God like Vulcan can use Artistry to create weapons and armour and all sorts of magic toys as Relics, could Sarasvati use it to create a Relic Song? A piece of music bound by Fate to a Scion that, when sung by her, could do what a Relic does?
ReplyDelete@Anne: If I'm not mistaken, Finnish mythology has similar tales of magic music, doesn't it?
I don't know if this is possible... but it would be so badass if it is.
DeleteThat is in fact a super-neat idea (and yeah, Finnish mythology has a strong tradition of performance through singing poetry, which has some neat overlaps). I love it and I'm thinking about it now.
DeleteThis seems like a really excellent idea. And anything that could prevent you from singing would take away your ability to use the relic, so it would not simply be a relic that could never be taken from you.
DeleteThat's what I was thinking in the balancing department...it's a Relic that literally cannot be taken away from you short of high level Magic, but that you actually have to perform to use...maybe the Scion could make a Charisma + Art roll along with whatever Boon roll he's channelling, and then use the lower value?
DeleteMan, I just had a mental image of a violinist playing Vivaldi's Winter to channel Blizzard Call!
Although totally cool and doable, we stop short of relics that do things other purveiws do. The relics could(the song could) give you awesome bonuses to those things, but you would still need to actually be able to do them yourself.
DeleteThe relic doesnt make the lightning storm, you make the lightning storm and with the help of the relic it is that much better.
No, no, that is almost exactly what I was suggesting!
DeleteWhat I meant was not that the Relic would cast Blizzard Call, but that the Song/Composition lets you channel/gives bonuses to Frost. Blizzard Call was totally being used by the Scion. Kind of like a Scion with a Sky channelling Staff could choose to have Levin Fury's lightning bolt shoot from the staff or something like that.
I'm sorry for the confusing language. Now that I reread it, I see I gave off the wrong impression.
Well then perfect :)
DeleteGreat! I'm already envisioning a Scion with Artistry, Illusion and Guardian acting as god of the boundary between reality and unreality (I spend entirely too much time envisioning potential Scions)!
DeleteThank you once again for the amazing work you id on this project guys! :D I finally have the Music Purview I always wanted.
First of all - great work, this looks awesome! One of my new PCs is going down this road, so I think I'll be able to give these rules a solid playtest over the next few months. I'll send feedback as soon as there's...back to...feed?
ReplyDeleteI've got a couple of questions, specifically surrounding the minimum number of successes required on each roll. The text of the Crafting rules states something along the lines that any creation that simulates a Relic has an incremental minimum number of successes equal to the Relic's dots as applied to the Epic scale - so, if you're trying to build an item that functions as a two-dot Relic, each roll that you make for a 12-hour working session has to have at least two successes for those successes to count; if you're tryin to come up with a five-dot Relic, each roll has to make at least 11 successes, and so on.
So, first question: this system of required incremental successes doesn't really seem to line up with the successes provided on the sample tables - the difficulty numbers are things like 10 and 25, which aren't anywhere on the Epic chart, even though the examples corresponding to them look like they're supposed to be Relics (though it's not explicitly stated with a dot value) - what's up with that?
Second question/suggestion: it seems like you're introducing an entirely new system for calculating the difficulty of rolls and levels of success, given that if you meet the minimum number of successes required the entire amount is applied to your cumulative total, as opposed to the standard "difficulty" mechanic, where your successes are reduced by the difficulty provided. Since you're effectively introducing a new mechanic for calculating the result of a die roll, does it seem simpler to just say that the "minimum successes" requried are a flat difficulty that reduces successes just like they do everywhere else in the game, and lower the cumulative required numbers to correspond with it? The end result is the same (that is, either way, if you don't meet the minimum successes OR the difficulty, then your roll doesn't count towards the final), but you're not messing with fundamental game mechanics to do it.
Thoughts?
Yeah, the incremental difficulty based on epics is a mistake from an earlier draft, it shouldnt be there.
DeletePart 2....hrmmm...you are correct, will have to think on it.
Well, first things first - mea culpa, that thing about relic dots as if epics is a mistake. It was from an earlier draft and apparently escaped my copy-editing eye. We decided eventually that since relic dots don't take into account things like size or complexity, it's better to base the difficulty on the ST's judgment instead of the flat dots. Please ignore it and refer to the sample difficulties instead.
DeleteWe have used the full-successes-instead-of-threshold mechanic in a few other places - Mighty Curse comes to mind - but I think John is working on explaining the full thing and he'll do a better job than I would.
I want to hear all the magical tea stories!
So how would the new rules for crafting sync with the evolving norms normally featured in Science Fiction and other such social stories? I could imagine a setting were intellect focused scions compete with "established" artistry gods to promote ever more exciting discoveries. Would additional rules be required to promote this feel or would it just be background fluff ("I just have to deal with the fact that my cell phone is magical")
ReplyDeleteMostly background stuff. All interesting, but very dependent on how the ST is handling that particular "world".
DeleteI was looking at the Quick-Reference page and I noticed that, while the Artistry boons have replaced the Industry boons, they are still under the Industry label. Also, awesome work, looking forward to new titanrealms and everything on the new voting poll.
ReplyDeleteTarnation, I made a new button and everything and it looks like I didn't upload the new page. Sorry about that - will update as soon as I get home tonight!
DeleteSo Polymath is pretty much the best thing ever, but I have some trouble transitioning Gunsmithing and Explosives into the umbrella categories... Is it Modern? Engineering? Metalsmithing? Any suggestions?
ReplyDeleteGunsmithing is probably under Engineering for planning and Metalsmithing + Engineering for building; it's a complicated thing so it may require more than one Art to pull off.
DeleteExplosives I would say depends on the kind... there might be some that fall under Engineering, some that fall under Modern (dynamite vs. thermonuclear, that kind of thing).
That makes a lot of sense, thanks!
DeleteOn the House Rules page, Industry is still listed as an APP.
ReplyDeleteThank you! Fixing!
DeleteCan you give a hint of what the low-legend god bios will be covering? Is it the well know minor gods like Hermod, Baba Yaga, Nike, & such? or are you starting with the less well know deities like the canopic jar gods?
ReplyDeleteIt'll probably be the most famous of the Legend 9-11 gods of each pantheon (maybe not all at once, though, that's a lot of stuff!). They'll get dedicated pages like the Legend 12 gods, with associations and myths. The goal will be to eventually make it so you can click on every god on the family trees.
DeleteMy group cannot stand the columns on our character sheets being uneven (OCD), so with Craft and Science vanishing we are going to jump on the opportunity to also get rid of Investigation.
ReplyDeleteThe actual ability to spot things would be wrapped into Awareness, while numerous other abilities would pick up the slack of figuring out what happened at a crime scene:
How did they break into this building? Larceny.
How did they dismantle the safe? Art.
What is this chemical powder around the burn? Academics.
What are these strange ritual marks around the door? Occult.
Who stands to benefit the most from this robbery? Politics.
Can you think of any horrible glaring reasons that would make this a terrible idea mechanically?
.....wouldnt taking out investigation make them uneven? This doesnt seem to make any sense.
DeleteMechanically you can have as many or as few abilities as you like. I think investigation is interesting and not having it makes things a little more bland, but no, there is no mechanical reason.
Yeah, did you remove another ability already? If you just take out Craft and Science, it's still even since Art is still there.
DeleteAside from that, I'm with John - not having Investigation will work fine mechanically, but I think it'd be a shame to punt it. Just personal opinion, though.
Our group places them in columns of three on our sheets. We had 24 abilities, meaning three columns of 8. Now, at 22, it's one of eight, two of seven.
DeleteIt's mostly just an OCD issue, but it's really hard to think of a situation you could roll Investigation when you could not roll some other ability.
DeleteNeed to find something in a library? Academics.
Need to figure out how this puzzle goes together? Art.
Need to spot someone hiding in a crowd? Awareness.
It doesn't feel like Investigation has anything really unique going for it.
Ah, three columns makes more sense.
DeleteWe'll have to disagree about Investigation's usefulness, but that's okay. :)
So do you plan on altering your downloadable character sheets, or your PC's sheets on the site for that matter?
ReplyDeleteYes, but probably over the course of play - like, I'll fix it when I update them for new XP expenditures, but it'll probably be a slow process for those not being played right now. But they'll get fixed. :)
DeleteMy apologies if I come across in any negative way. As to the bit about investigation: What about examining a crime scene? And knowing the procedures to do so? There are many different application of the ability that are not easily covered by the skill.
ReplyDeleteOne may as well combine Command and Presence together, or combine Thrown into either Athletics or Marksmanship.
I am trying to see where you are coming from. Especially a bit more once you mentioned the OCD bit.
Also, John, Anne, excellent work as always.
Noticing details at a crime scene would be Awareness. Knowing the procedures to do so would be Academics for the forensics or criminal science, and Politics for the paperwork or motives.
DeleteI don't think Presence should be merged with Command, but it could definitely use some clarification. There is no clear cut explanation for what Presence does, unlike Command or Empathy, so it becomes a kind of catch all for anything you can't put under the other two abilities.
You probably could split Thrown between Athletics and Marksmanship. Athletics for the feats of strength, and Marksmanship for actually hitting things accurately.
DeleteIt wouldn't take much effort, just a few knacks would need to be cleaned up for balance reasons.
You could simmer the entire system down to all physical things happen with Athletics, all socials with Presence and all mentals with Academics, if you really wanted to. But we like skills more specialized than that, and we prefer to keep Investigation because it does do things that are specifically different from those of general Awareness (i.e., the difference between noticing things and actually searching and detectiving them out).
DeleteIt's pretty much the same thing we were saying a little while ago about Politics. Of course, if you took Investigation out of the game, you can fill the gap with several other abilities. But with it in the game, it occupies its own space and does a good job, so we like keeping it there.
I'm totally with you on the not wanting to have uneven numbers of abilities, though. I was kind of worried about it while we were working on the system, even though we ended up still having an even number.
Character Creation rules still have this bit:
ReplyDelete"If a Scion purchases a specialized Ability (Art, Craft, Control or Science) at five dots, all other specializations of that Ability cost half the normal price on the table above (rounded up)."
Will this still apply to Art and Control, or will it change at all due to the wide range of Arts?
Oh, good point. It'll still apply to Art and Control; nothing's really different for them until a Scion has Polymath anyway.
DeleteDo you think Academics now does too much? It now covers every single science simultaneously, as well as being a powerful social stat for debates.
ReplyDeleteIt covers basic knowledge of many sciences, it doesnt cover high level science or science you can really "use". Im also not sure about the most powerful social stat for debates. It certainly is useful to know things, but Im not sure how it would be the most powerful stat.
DeleteWhat do you mean that it 'doesn't cover high level science'? If academics does not cover high level science, and the science skill no longer exists, then what covers high level science?
DeleteYou would roll manipulation + academics for a logical and well reasoned debate based on facts.
Art(appropriate science blended with appropriate craft) covers any science that actually aims to create or use things. Academics is general knowledge and theoretical science. Academics is to art(science/crafting) as athletics is to brawl/melee/marksmanship/thrown.
DeleteDebating facts is something that almost never happens. Facts are facts. More often people debate opinions based on those facts. And that will always involve many roles including manipulation, wits, charisma, intelligence, perception, empathy, academics, presence, politics, oratory, and possibly fortitude.
Oratory?
Deleteart(oratory) :)
Delete