Question: Working to create a new Titanrealm of Death and I was interested to see what 'Titans' would call it home and why. Japanese, Norse, Egyptian, and Aztec are of particular interest since its what we have in our game.
Well, good news - we actually wrote a Titanrealm of Death for our most recent pantheon supplement, The K'uh, which is available for free download and might give you some interesting starting places! It starts on page 27 of the PDF and contains Maya, Persian, Hindu and Greek Titan Avatars.
However, none of those Avatars are from the cultures you mentioned - bummer, right? It's actually very difficult to find true-blue Avatars of Death in many mythologies, which is at first glance surprising considering how much humanity tends to be afraid of and unhappy about death as a concept. It's that very fear and dislike that makes it less likely for there to be Titans of Death, however; because death is always the end of mortal life and therefore of supreme importance to humans, it's necessary for there to be gods to oversee it, lending humans the comfort of knowing that someone will take care of them after death, that there are rules, rewards and punishments that make the whole thing make sense. This is why there are tons of death gods, at least one or two per pantheon and in some cases many more, and why conversely there are few Death Titans; human societies don't like death-aligned figures, but they seldom invent ones that don't in some way help or reassure them about the great unknown of the afterlife.
That doesn't mean they don't exist, though! The easiest of your cultures to find one in is actually the Amatsukami, where the terrible figure of Izanami, murdering as many people as her husband creates each day and dragging them down into the miserable depths of Yomi, has many of the hallmarks of a Titan. She's a goddess in the original writeup, and we've gone back and forth on whether she should stay that way or move over to becoming Titanic, but if you want the death-aligned big bad of the Amatsukami, she's obviously it. Unlike most death gods, she doesn't really have any positive side, any things she does to help or safeguard humanity; she's a prison warden who is always looking to add to her prisoners so they can be miserable along with her, and that's a setup perfect for Titanhood. Plus, the tragic story of how she died and ended up as what she is now often lends a lot of emotional resonance to the dealings of gods and Scions with her, and might give you a lot of cool story options. There are other death figures in the Japanese pantheon, most notably Susanoo (who was cursed to become part of the Underworld when he sided with Izanami against his father) and Jigoku (lord of the Buddhist hell, most likely an import of Yama who later took on his own identity as a Japanese deity), but since they do have stories and functions as deities, interacting with the other gods or rehabilitating the dead according to their deeds in life, they're probably better left as gods instead of Titans.
The Norse are not so easy: they have three death people, and they're Odin, Freya and Hel, and none of them are straight-up easy choices for Titanhood. As leader of the pantheon, Odin's pretty clearly out of the question (although sometimes his behavior is downright Titanic, amirite, guys?), and as one of the Vanir prisoners and a major and generally benevolent goddess who features in many important stories, Freya's not a good choice, either. That leaves Hel, who, like Izanami, is not a very nice person thanks to her pantheon shitting on her, but she doesn't have the same Titanic flavor as her Japanese counterpart. Hel doesn't actively do anything to oppose the gods; nobody likes her, true enough, and people are generally afraid to go to her house, but she doesn't attack anyone, doesn't go around trying to kill more humans for her own ends, and doesn't cosmically try to screw anyone, spending most of her time sullenly watching over the kingdom they punted her into. She does try to prevent Baldur's resurrection, but you can hardly blame her for being A) not very inclined to be nice to the Aesir, and B) enforcing the rules of the domain they demanded she take over in the first place. If you don't use Hel, unfortunately there really aren't very many other options among the Norse gods and antagonists; the best other option I can think of is Modgrud, the giantess who guards the bridge to Hel and controls whether or not the dead (or living) are allowed across it, but since she's both fairly minor and also not very antagonistic, I really wouldn't recommend her.
The Egyptians have the opposite problem from the Norse - ten bazillion kajillion death-aligned gods, but almost all of them are benevolent friends to humanity and their pantheon, hardly Titans bent on opposing them. Because the ancient Egyptians were so strongly invested in the idea of the afterlife being a second chance for them if they observed all their death rituals and were judged worthy, there are veritable slews of gods helping take care of the place, from guiding lost souls to performing burial rites to defending them from demons to judging their worthiness to continue to a new life. That doesn't leave a lot of room for deathly gods who are trying to ruin all that, but you do have a few options you might be able to explore nevertheless. The first is Ammit, the terrible crocodile/hippopotamus/lion amalgam creature that is said to dwell in Duat; eternally hungry, she devours the souls of anyone who fails to measure up when weighed against feather of Ma'at, consigning their souls to awful oblivion instead of allowing them to move on. While we use Ammit as an Avatar of the Titanrealm of Destruction, emphasizing her role as the void that utterly destroys, we could also see her as an Avatar of Death representing final, irrevocable and afterlife-less death, something that surely gives most people extreme heebie-jeebies. Ammit is slightly problematic, however, in that she works for (or at least with) the gods, allowing Anubis and Thoth to decide who she gets to eat and doesn't, so you'd need to come up with a backstory reason why she's ditched that job and begun rampaging on her own. The only other suggestion I have for you is a minor god called Ba-Pef, who is believed to have represented the grief and suffering associated with death and who lives in the House of Woe in Duat. Ba-Pef was on our original list for possibilities for our own Titanrealm of Death; we ended up cutting him since he was such a minor god with very little information on him out there, but he does fill a neat death-related niche, so he's an outside option.
Finally, the Aztecs, with a similar lack of useful possibilities. Like most Mesoamerican cultures, the Aztecs had a pretty overwhelming fear and hatred of death and things associated with it, but as a result they set up several gods as goalies to keep dead people from getting out to frighten the living and called it a day. Huitzilopochtli, Tlaloc and other gods who technically control Underworlds are obviously not Titan material, and while Itzpapalotl does oversee the souls of dead infants and miscarriages, she's so strongly tied to the tzitzimime that it would be a pretty weird move to set her up in a Death realm instead of the Stars. The really major scary death figure for the Aztecs is Mictlantecuhtli (and his wife, Mictecacihuatl, who fucntions with him as a unit), but he has the same problems as Hel above - performs the useful function of keeping the dead away from the living, doesn't oppose or endanger humanity or his pantheon, has no particularly evil issues other than being very unpleasant to be around, and only clashes with the gods when they invade his home and try to break the rules of death. He's certainly scary and disliked, so you could decide that he's a Titan, but it's hard to extrapolate much misbehavior out of him when his favorite pastime is staying at home and refusing to not do his job. If you want to get creative, though, you could try going modern and using Santa Muerte ("Saint Death" or "Holy Death" in Spanish) as a new Titan Avatar horning in on the traditional Aztec territories. Santa Muerte is probably actually a figure synthesized from Mictlantecuhtli/Mictecacihuatl and the influence of Catholicism from the invading Spaniards, but wherever she came from she's become one of the most powerful (and frightening, depending on who you ask) cult figures in Mexico, with cults reaching all the way up into the US and down through Central America. If you want to use her as a being in her own right, she could be parlayed into an interesting Titanic figure opposing the old death gods of the Aztlanti, flourishing in worship where they did not.
That's about all I've got to suggest for you, I'm afraid. Death's a very hard one, and I salute you for giving it a good go. In addition to the suggestions above, we also had Iapetus, Greek Titan of mortality and the lifespan, as a possibility on our original list for our Death realm, as well as Mrtyu, Hindu personification of death.
May I suggest Sokar for Egypt? He is a pre-Osirian death god, lives isolated in the desert of Duat, Shetit, according to the Underworld Books and has several nasty snake monsters guarding his palace, among them Meretseger, who is sometimes called his mate and additionally is a Titan in her own right in the original books (Drought, if I'm not mistaken). But he is also a desert god and protector of precious metals, so he is probably just as good as a Titan of Earth. But I'd dare say that if Sokar isn't a Titan, I probably am.
ReplyDeleteMeretseger is actually part of Muspelheim in the original books, but if you're running Vritra as Drought, she makes a lot more sense over there.
DeleteHmm, you know, I've never actually heard any negative connotations for Sokar. He's definitely an underworld god (one we tend to fold in as syncretized with Osiris, but he can stand on his own, too), but as far as I know he's a benevolent protector figure who aids the pharaoh in his afterlife journey, like a lot of these other guys. He does often turn up with serpents, but my impression in the few things I've read about him (admittedly not too much - he doesn't usually get a lot of dedicated book time) is that that generally represents his power over danger in the underworld and function as a guardian who doesn't allow it to threaten the souls of the dead. I've actually never seen a connection between Sokar and Meretseger as consorts - would you mind sharing? :)
I can see Meretseger as a Titan - she has some positive aspects, but is generally pretty scary and represents a lot of uncomfortable things like silence, solitude, loneliness and punishment - but I'm not sure Sokar really has any reason or associations to put him on that side of the fence.
Well, not all Titans are thorougly evil, though I admit that after looking it all up again, Sokar is not quite as scary as I remembered him. But he is still an older death god that was cultically deposed by Osiris and especially the lord and personification of Shetit, the underworld desert where the sun bark has to be carried, because the river is to shallow. But you are right, he could be a guardian preventing worse things from happening there. So not a definite Titan, but a possible one. Making me a Titan. Uaargh!
DeletePS: I made a mistake with Meretseger: She is not actually his consort, but rather something like his pet, the main guardian of his hall. I can't find the actual source at the moment, but I know I read it in some book. Probably some magical text, just so I'm never able to find it again ...
Please don't smite us with your Titan powers!
DeleteWell, no worries, I've read something and forgotten the sourcing enough times to know your woe. I'll keep an eye out and see if I can find any mention of Meretseger that sheds light on it. Thanks!
Geez, someone should help Hel out...I sort of think she could do with someone being the Nergal to her Hereshkigal (only in a nicer way, of course).
ReplyDeleteShe's been having a rotten life.
(Plus, hey, if she gets some romance and friendly interaction, maybe she'll be nicer to the Aesir?)
I think that's what she was shooting for with Baldur, but then everybody got on her case about that. ;)
DeleteAlas, poor Hel. It's hard to find dudes willing to marry scary underworld goddesses who are terrifying to look at and have no personal charms to speak of. I doubt she's interested in marrying a scary troll god herself, so it's an ongoing challenge.
I hope Sowiljr has a plan, because it is totally going to come up.
Well the guy was (is? How's that work after death, anyway?) married.
DeleteI don't think Nergal was.
...No, what needs to be done is find a single guy, for her.
Possibly through a Scion.
(Shame Sowiljr is married, or that'd be a good pair, since he got along pretty well with Loki)
Sowiljr tried to float the concept of Eztli as "first wife" for a little while in the interests of political harmony, but she was unamused.
DeleteYou're right, Nergal wasn't married and Baldur was. The concept of "until death do you part" is not necessarily applicable to all ancient cultures, but Nanna was also dead at this point, having burned herself on his funeral pyre, so it's hard to tell if he would be considered still married if/when he was resurrected.
I think the current plan is to try to convince Sverrir and Hel to wed in blissful trollishness, but I don't think they're going to be fans of the idea.
Ohdear.
DeleteMethinks Eztli needs to watch out, in case Hel decides she wants another shot at a sun-god Aesir with good Appearance.
Lol, my idea might be used, though I feel sorry for Sowiljr. I'm planning to take that bullet some time down the road as a scion of Baldur, but has not come up yet. You'll have to let me know how it turns out, should be interesting.
DeleteWhat about the dragon Nidhoggr as an Avatar of a Titan of Death? His job seems to be to gnaw away at the roots of Yggdrasil, filling either a role of Death as a hungry thing or Death as a force of entropy and decay.
ReplyDeleteHmm, I could see him! He is kind of representative of the death of not just people but the world itself, which is a pretty worthy Avatar idea.
DeleteWhile Camazotz is Mayan, not Aztec, he may just be close enough for most games. He certainly wouldn't be overflowing with love for the Aztecs. Literally named "Death Bat" he's primal and uninterested in being friendly to much of anyone. If you need a rampaging force of murder and blood, look no further!
ReplyDeleteI actually used Ymir as an Avatar of Death. He's dead, killed by Odin and his brothers, and he's not happy about it. In Scion's history, he was an Avatar of Frost originally, but when he was slain, he became an Avatar of Death representing the unchanging stasis of death. He may be a potential option for a Death Avatar, depending on how creative you want to get with mythology.
My other Avatars are Thanatos (Greek), Nirrti (Hindu), and Kur (Sumerian). Kur is a pretty obscure figure, but there are early-period Sumerian references to him as kind of a personification of the Underworld itself and he may have kidnapped Ereshkigal, forcing her to live in the Underworld and rule it. He seemed quite well suited to Titanhood. Nirrti, as the Vedic Goddess of suffering, death and plague, was another shoo-in. People worshipped *against* Nirrti, hoping she'd spare them her attentions and go away quickly. And Thanatos.. is just the personification of Death itself, so he made sense.
We totally use Thanatos and Nirrti, too! We roll with Camazotz as a Titan-corrupted god rather than a full Avatar, but the same ideas. :)
DeleteI actually did a Titan writeup for Kur a while back when we were messing around with the first phase of the Anunna. I gave him Animal/Earth/Water, but you could easily substitute Death for one of the latter two.
I've actually wondered, was your decision to use Camazotz as a God because he'd already appeared in your games as a God before you started thinking about a Death Titan. He seems so Titany to me. To some degree he reminds me of Apophis or Jormungdar, more of an animalistic force of nature than a reasoning, thinking divine figure like a God.
DeleteIt's probably largely because of the fact that he had confirmed cult worship in several different Maya and Zapotec centers, suggesting to us a god that was definitely very frightening and worrisome, but also considered more than a pure antagonist, possibly akin to figures like Nergal or Hel who are similarly universally disliked but still undeniably given due honors. Figures like Apep or Jormungandr, on the other hand, are straight antagonists with no cult worship and very clear status as opposition to the gods, no question about their classification. We split the difference by making him a god who was technically redeemable, but who is currently working for the Titanrealm and likely to fully join them as an Avatar without intervention. He's undoubtedly doing a lot of evil shit, but his position was ambiguous enough for us to want him to be able to go either way.
DeleteAlso, compared to the Lords of Death, he's not that prominently powerful a figure - certainly they're more important in the scheme of Maya death stuff than he is, so even if he's in there, he wouldn't be the dominant Avatar over them (unless you go with them being permanently destroyed by the twins, but then there's the weird question of what that destroyed in the World? we assume they were just in Tartarus).
Hey, seeing this I had an idea, though no mythological backing to know if this concept is true. What about an Avatar of the Titan of Death that is all about not letting mortals achieve it? Like, it sounds something more beneficial, until you start seeing the effects. Plague victims always suffering, people injured always in pain and the worse part, no reincarnation for the cultures that believe in it. Like I said, I don't know, but that seems scary to me to never be able to die no matter how much suffering is thrust upon me. So it could be Death or maybe something else. Just thought it might be an interesting twist on the Titan of Death, to never give people its end.
ReplyDeleteThe Titans don't just set out to be *evil* though. They're representations of vast, cosmic forces that are "evil" in the same way a natural disaster that kills millions of people is evil, or the same way HIV/AIDS is evil. Ok, some of them are a bit more sinister in their persona, but mostly they're just elemental and antagonistic. Not mustache-twirling cruelty mongers. I mean, *Nergal* does that kinda stuff.
DeleteSo an Avatar of Death that *denies Death* is going directly against his concept. That'd be more like an Avatar of Life doing that kind of thing. Totally possible.