Tuesday, July 30, 2013

On the Wings of a Dream

Question: The power to move through flames is in the Fire purview and the power to move through shadows is in Darkness, so how come the power to move through dreams isn't in Illusion, the puview that controls dreams?

Because, where Fire and Darkness are purviews concerned with the manipulation of an existing element, Illusion is a purview concerned with the creation of things that are entirely unreal.

Fire's a simple purview, at its base. You're a fire-god; you control fire. It does what you say, you can benefit from it in ways other gods can't, and you can become one with it at your discretion. It makes sense for a god of fire, who can become part of the leaping flames and command their every movement, to be able to travel through them. Similarly, a goddess of darkness controls the shadows of the universe, makes them obey her commands and can become part of their ever-shifting obscurity, so it also makes sense for her to be able to travel through them. Both are using the existing force of the world over which they are master to move themselves around (and, on a conceptual level, drawing on the fact that both elements are things that are fluid and interconnected by nature - one shadow is the same as all other shadows, one flame is indistinguishable from the fire that surrounds it, so therefore you can come out of any one regardless of where you went in).

But Illusion, by its very nature, isn't like that. There's no thing that Illusion controls or commands; it is literally the purview of nothing, the set of powers dedicated to pretending things are there that really aren't. Most of the time, the illusionist doesn't even see the illusions she projects onto others, because she's wielding a power to convince people that something is there when she knows very well that it isn't. A fire god can step into the flames, but an illusion god has literally nothing to do the same with. It would make no sense to travel through dreams or illusions as an illusionist, because illusions are not real, are not there, and are products of the inward-drawn mind alone. There's nothing to travel in, especially for the god who knows that better than everyone else.

However, the idea of visions, effects and even travel in dreams is one that occurs in folklore and is both powerful and cool, so we didn't want to leave it out of Scion - on the contrary, let's get that bad boy into play so people can do awesome stuff with it! Since the purpose of the power is to travel, and since the Psychopomp purview is both about traveling for purposes of guiding souls and carrying messages and is also the set of powers that specializes in journeying around with no regard for the normal means of doing so (teleportation!), Oneiric Visit makes perfect sense there. A Psychopomp's job is to zoom around the universe, through doors that are invisible, across vistas unseen, collecting not just notes but the very souls of the dead; why should they not also travel through dreams, using the minds of their future charges as their conveyance? For them, wacky methods of getting around are just business as usual.

Illusion is one of the slimmer purviews at the moment, so I definitely feel you on wanting it to do more and branch out wider, particularly in the less-represented field of dreams. This boon isn't the place to do it, but I will tell you that we're on the same page with you, and that more powers having to do with dreams are on some mysterious lists on our desks right now.

10 comments:

  1. I am having a lot of trouble wrapping my head around this answer, mostly because a lot of the arguments you are using for why illusion cannot do something are also arguments against darkness.

    I mean, to the Deva and Yazata illusion is definitely a thing that can be controlled in the same way that darkness is.

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    2. Not really sure about the Yazata.

      But as for the Devas, well, the problem with the Devas is that they don't really exactly think Illusions are real. It's more accurate to say that they think real things are Illusions. So it's not so much 'I create an illusion of a mountain that makes it a real thing', it's more 'that mountain over there is totally just a figment of your imagination.'

      That being said (and I'm the guy who asked this question), I understand why you guys put it under Psychopomp, and looking at it from your point of view, I agree; but I still think that with a little change of flavour text, Onieric Visit would not be entirely unfit for the Illusion Purview, especially for a Deva who's achieved Moksha and considers a physical body as a convenient tool at best.

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    3. It all comes down to the flavor text. There is almost no boon or knack in the world that cannot be justified to work in a different purview if you explain it the right way.

      Some are more of a stretch than others, but moving from dream to dream with illusion is not a big stretch at all.

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    4. I disagree with that statement so hard that I might not be able to disagree with anything else for the rest of the day....heh, naw, I'm actually 60% disagreement by weight.

      No matter how you reskin it, turning into an Animal belongs in Animal. Making plants grow belongs in Fertility. The "flavor" is what defines a Boon or Knack. The system exists to express the concept, not the other way around. You're not imposing a dice penalty or forcing a Stamina roll, you're making your enemy's flesh rot off their bones.

      While moving from dream to dream may work in illusion, the actual ability to move your physical, real-world body from one place to another doesn't fit. You could project your mind, your awareness, through dreams, but not actually "step" into someone's dream and step "out" of someone else's. Or even step "into" a dream of the Great Pyramid and step "out" of that dream and into reality.

      Honestly, I'm not a big fan of Shadowstep or Flame Travel because I think that should just be how Fire and Darkness Gods describe their Rainbow Bridge.

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    5. It's not really comparable to Darkness, because Darkness, in a mythic sense, is considered a real thing. It's a powerful force in the universe that gods fight against and control, and shadows, despite the fact that you can't touch them, are in most mythic contexts every bit as real as something like fire or water. Ancient myths treat gods and creatures that control darkness as masters of a real force, and similarly conceived of darkness as a primal element of the universe, part of its makeup. The fact that we know from science that it's just an absence of light, not a real thing, doesn't really apply here (like a lot of science stuff in Scion!).

      Illusion, on the other hand, is by definition not there, in mythic contexts as well as modern ones. With the exception of the Devas, who are all gung-ho about trying to overcome the illusiory world, it's almost never considered an actual thing anyone fights against, but rather a means that tricksters and deceivers use to their nefarious ends. And even the Devas don't think of illusion as some kind of real thing that they have to fight; as Samudra said above, it's more that everyone needs to free their perceptions and spirituality from illusion's confusion, not that illusion is some kind of thing actively stalking people.

      It's true, you can probably flavor text a lot of boons back and forth, but we also believe that most of them have a "best fit" that is a much better and more resonant place for them than the others you could try to shoehorn them into. This is one of them; it does affect dreams, but it's fundamentally a boon about journeying, not about illusions, and as such belongs in Psychopomp.

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    6. Poor Source J is never going to convince people that Beast Shape should not be in Magic. :D

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    7. I do find myself rather liking the idea of getting rid of the various teleportation powers from the other Purviews and just making them Psychopomp stunts (except Come Running, which I think fulfils a different mythic purpose), because after I wrote that reply, I realized that, while I still firmly believe that in the Deva mindset travelling through dreams is totally Illusion, it a. doesn't fit the world view of any other pantheon and retooling a Boon for just one Pantheon is flat out unfair, and b. as far as the Devas are concerned there's not a lot that you shouldn't be able to do with Illusion, and that would be total bananas.

      Also, I so wanna peek at the mysterious lists! Illusion could definitely use more dream powers (though, honestly, Nocturnal Director kind of does everything a Dream God needs to do on its own).

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    8. Yeah when I saw this question I just thought 'Nocturnal Director......?' but then I realized that Samudra meant like physically entering other people's dreams, and that is definitely a psychopomp thing. But I mean, if you actually -create- the dream using Nocturnal Director, there is nothing stopping you from just entering the dream you've created yourself.

      Poor Source J. He's never going to win. :(

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    9. Oh, well, yeah, you can always make an illusion of yourself and have it run around the dream. Nobody in that dream will know the difference. :)

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