Question: What sort of Titanrealms do each of the 12 Titans of Greek Mythology belong in? I could easily see the types of Titanrealms most of them could be placed in, but what of Mnemosyne, Phoebe, Theia, Krios and Iapetus? I know Mnemosyne is Memory, Phoebe is Prophecy (maybe), Theia is Sight (maybe) and Iapetus is Mortality (maybe) and no clue about Krios, so what sort of Titanrealms could they be placed in? I can't see there being a memory Titanrealm just for Mnemosyne.
I agree, there probably isn't a Titanrealm dedicated just to Mnemosyne. Let's break all these guys down.
Of the original twelve Titans, we have full writeups already completed for Cronus, the dominant Avatar of Ourea, Titanrealm of Fertility and Coeus, Avatar of Tamoanchan, Titanrealm of the Heavens. That leaves us with Oceanus, Tethys, Iapetus, Theia, Hyperion, Phoebe, Rhea, Themis, Mnemosyne and Crius to try to place. Some of them, as you note, are very easy to place. Oceanus and Tethys, as the embodiments of the oceans, streams and springs of the World, obviously belong in a Titanrealm of Water; likewise, Hyperion, as the Titan of Light, belongs in a realm dedicated to the same.
But what about everyone else? While we definitely know the first generation of Titans and their defeat by Zeus, we don't always have particularly clear details on what they were doing most of the time, either because as the defeated enemies it didn't matter much or (most of the time) because Greek writers tended to assume everyone already knew what they were talking about. Which was a reasonable assumption to make - after all, most people probably know as much as is generally available about the antagonists of their own religion, right?
Iapetus, unless our plans change, will most likely end up as an Avatar of the Titanrealm of Death; while there isn't much solid information on him, his scholarly reconstruction as a god who presides over mortality and the limits of life, especially in regards to violent or battlefield death, makes him a natural for the post. We're looking forward to his contrast with the more neutral but no less fearful Thanatos.
Theia's a little firmer; like her husband, we would place her in a Titanrealm of Light, most likely as an Avatar representing illumination and sight, or perhaps reflection on the strength of her ties to the "light" of gold and other precious metals. Her association with sight, from an ancient Greek point of view, directly ties her to light, and it's for that reason that she's part of an entire family that surrounds the concept - Hyperion as Light, and her children Helios, Selene and Eos as Sun, Moon and Dawn.
Phoebe has a couple of possibilities. Her name's meaning ("bright") and connection to the heavenly bodies as wife of Coeus and namesake of the later celestial gods Apollo and Artemis suggest that she has heavenly connotations of some kind herself. However, she's also a strong candidate for an Avatar of a Titanrealm of Fate; as one of the longest-running prophetic goddesses and owner of the oracle of Delphi before she handed it over to Apollo, she's clearly an oracular figure, and there's much scholarly theorizing that she might be intended to function as a polar complement to her husband - Phoebe as a prophetic oracle in the world, with Coeus as a mystery oracle in the sky above. It's your call; there's a glut of heavenly Titans already, so I'd send her over to the Fate realm unless you really want to put her elsewhere.
Themis is very simple - that's a lady who belongs in a Titanrealm of Order! She embodies tradition - that is, the first laws handed down since time immemorial by the gods and ancestors of humanity - and is so strongly associated with the idea that her children (the Horae, setting the boundaries of the limits and hours, the Moirai, limiters and decision-makers over destiny itself, Eunomia, goddess of order and preservation, and Dike, goddess of justice and equality) are just further expressions of the concept of law and order. Zeus' affair with her is probably largely intended to legitimize and support him as the lawful power in the universe. She's a natural for the job (and the Scion books themselves agree, placing her in their slim neutral Titanrealm Logos).
Crius we've actually already dealt with, though we didn't give him a separate writeup; he's over in Tamoanchan along with his brother Coeus. He has strong ties to constellations, starting with Aries (which the Greeks referred to as Krios, his name), and scholars often extrapolate that out into a general patronage of all constellations and the measurement of time by their movements. Like a lot of these Titans, it's also clue-worthy that many of his children have celestial connotations. We didn't want to overload Tamoanchan with a huge pile of Avatar writeups, but Crius should be considered a Titan there in his own right.
But then we arrive at Mnemosyne, who insists on defying all currently projected Titanrealms. Memory, enlightenment and knowledge aren't the stuff of Titanrealms, nor are her other side associations with art and performance. She's the keeper of glory thanks to being in charge of whether or not anyone will remember your name and deeds, but there's also no Titanrealm of Glory.
After much thought, we think there are two possibilities. The first is that you can indeed make a case for Mnemosyne to be an Avatar of the Titanrealm of Fate; she does have minor oracular connotations, mostly because all the Titan goddesses of her generation do, but more importantly she might be a good choice for a rare Mystery-oriented Titan. Mystery's a major part of the Titanrealm of Fate, but most of its Avatars have to do with Prophecy or Magic instead; Mnemosyne, whose memories contain all things that have ever happened, could be considered the representation of that wisdom and knowledge that is called upon from beyond the veil.
An alternative - which we think fits better but is also a giant pile of hissing work, so feel free to avoid it like we are currently doing - is to make her a Titan Avatar of a currently nonexistent Titanrealm of Eternity. We've occasionally discussed coming up with this kind of place; essentially, there are Titans of time in the eternal and genitive sense (like Chronos, Ananke, Zrvan and so on), and it's possible that a Titanrealm of the same could exist, though who it would oppose we currently have no idea. Mnemosyne, as the keeper of all memories and thus representationally of all things past, would be a natural fit for such a place, but you would have to write a whole Titanrealm to accommodate her. (Unless you're using Zrvan as it appears in Scion: Yazata, which gives us hives but would make this a lot simpler!)
And finally, Rhea. We've talked about her problems at length before, so where she ends up really depends on your favorite version of her. If we were going to assign her to a specific realm, I'd go with Earth; she's the goddess of mountains, in most of her forms comes across mountains to be worshiped, fools Cronus with a rock, hides people in caves and generally seems to be down and literally dirty a good amount of the time. As a Titan Avatar of Earth, she makes a good complement to her husband as an Avatar of Fertility. She also has links to fertility and water if you want to branch out.
So those are our suggestions for the Uranides, that merry band of cranky and cosmic irritations that may or may not blow Olympus sky-high with the force of their collective displeasure. They're not the only possibilities, but we're pretty big fans of the above picks. And remember, if you're not directly using those Titans in your game right now, you don't have to kill yourself figuring out where they fit in the grand cosmological scheme of things unless you want to; it's unlikely that any of your Legend 4 Scions are going to have anything to do with grand cosmic Phoebe, so don't sweat it if you're not sure where you want her yet.
That makes things make a lot more sense. Now I'm thinking that Mnemosyne could theoretically be a free titan. I mean, if she's neutral, and is the only titan of memory, than there's the possibility that binding her to a titan-realm wouldn't be necessary. But I could also see how she would fit into a fate or eternity titanrealm.
ReplyDeleteIf your game rolls with Titans that aren't in a realm, then sure, that's totally always an option for hard-to-fit figures!
DeleteA Titanrealm of Eternity would be the best choice. Maybe it could oppose all the gods, because all of them are affected by time in some way. The real problem I see is that all Titanrealms seem to be associated, or are the source, of a purview. So Anne and John, is there a possibility that someday you would write this new APP? Or you think it's not a theme that's strong enough or present in the majority of the ancient religions?
ReplyDeleteDubious. I don't really think you can say Pakiy from JSR's Apu Supplement is associated with or the source of any one specific purview. While it could be argued that Whedh from the JSR Alihah supplement is associated with or the source of Justice, a much stronger argument could be made for Sedeq from the JSR Elohim supplement.
DeleteIn short, in 'canon', yes, Titans tend to be associated very strongly with a particular purview, but when it comes to JSR, you probably shouldn't expect Titans to /always/ be purview-oriented.
Even the original writeups weren't strictly required to be tied to a purview - Terra, at least, was a potpurri of different purviews' areas, and nothing in the books ever specifically said they were required to have a single purview alignment. It's probably more of a happy accident - purviews represent big cosmic powers in the universe, and so do Titanrealms, so it's not surprising that they often overlap.
DeleteIf we were trying to do absolute purview association, I'd say Whedh would be the source of Psychopomp most closely, but you're right, we're not sticking directly to a required purview connection. :)
As for a Time/Eternity/Whatevah purview, we've considered it, but it's not high on our priority list. It'd be concerned with things like seasons, cycles, eternity and other mythic concepts of time - no time travel, time freezing or other sci-fi concepts invited.
DeleteI think if we were going to work on a new APP right now, though, it'd probably be either Music, Love or the possible Sky/Thunder split. It's still an option for the future, though!
I thought it could be a good idea to have titanrealms strongly associated with a purview or a group of purviews, like Comprenion and the Special Purviews, but I understand that you do not want to be constrained in your writeup of the Titans. This idea could add one more reason to not destroy the titanrealms outright or some powers of the gods would be unusable. I saw in some other place that the death of Ymir ended the Last Ice Age, imagine the death of an entire concept. Anyway it's just an idea!
DeleteI also thought in my twisted mind that Pakiy was strongly associated with War, and with the elimination of Vritra(the only realm which I think had no strong associations) from the original books, I imagined that you were following a pattern. Sorry for my mistake!
DeleteMy friend and I are always arguing over whether or not Titans represent a purview or whether or not they just represent a concept, no purview necessary. I am STRONGLY in favor of the prior, he is in favor of the latter. I consider the Titanrealms as being the source of all the Gods' boons, and that if they ever destroyed one of these Titanrealms instead of binding it, that would be the end of that purview in addition to the end of that concept in the mortal world. By binding the Titans in Tartarus, the Gods get to keep using their powers and not have to worry about the Titans interfering with their lives.
DeleteI've always considered the Creation Titan in the Bogovi Supplement to be Industry, the Destruction Titan in the Apu Supplement to be Chaos (though War works, Unknown,) Sedeq in the Elohim to be Justice, and Whedh to be, as Anne said, Psychopomp.
Your mind is not alone in its twistedness - I thought Pakiy was the War realm too. And the reason I like connecting Titans to Purviews is because it helps ensure that disasters like Vritra don't happen again...it gives a nice shorthand to ensure that the Titanrealm concept really is cosmic in scope. But that's just me.
DeleteY'all are not really wrong - just like we were thinking of Psychopomp with Whedh, we were thinking of War with Pakiy. The issue with those is not really that those purviews don't fit, but rather that the Titanrealm is too big for the narrowness of those concepts - it's doing more than one purview can cover. A lot of the Titanrealms have the same thing going on, where it's obvious that various purviews overlap.
DeleteI don't think there's anything wrong with the idea of one Titanrealm = one APP, because it is very simple and easy to work with. But it is limiting, and it also puts a very hard cap on how many Titanrealms (and thus pantheon antagonists) there can actually be.
About limiting the Titans and purview overlaps, I don't think so. The fact that a purview is the strongest in a realm shouldn't limit its avatars and creatures to use other purviews or represent some concepts not covered by boons in the reigning power, in the same way that only because the gods are the expression of their PSPs shouln't impede them of using their other powers. It's just that the the realms are the source of this specific mode of channeling Ichor, like Jacob said, and if they die, the purview dies too. But about the hard cap on the number of realms you are right Anne, so... Keep up the good work! You two came with ideas that I never thought would be good before you said so, like this new PSP Ori, which for me is one the most well thought purviews of all time! And I'm very excited to see your Titanrealms coming out soon! It seems they are the most voted for now.
DeleteIf you changed gods to titans, then why not have Mnemosyne go from titan to god?
ReplyDeleteShe could do that during the course of a game if the plot demanded it, but she's just not a default god. She had no real cult worship, no connection to humanity, no myths of anything she did, and she's directly part of the most famous generation of the original Titans. It'd be pretty inescapably inaccurate to try to make her a goddess instead.
DeleteTwo questions: Could Mind be an acceptable Titanrealm concept?
ReplyDeleteAnd secondly, if Fate is a force greater than Gods and Titans, as the books seem to paint it...then how come there's a Titanrealm of Fate? I can see there being a Titanrealm for Magic, or the like, but Fate?
For one, it'd encapsulate all three of the Fate pictures I'd imagine. For two, exactly! That's what makes me excited for it! Curious just what will be done with Fate. While there's a chance it'll fall flat, short of many's expectations, I'm sure they'll whip up something good.
DeletePurviews! Bloody damned autocorrect.
DeleteI have complete faith in John and Anne's Titan writing capabilities (hell, I'm pretty sure they could whip up a Titanrealm of Ravioli and it'd still be excellent). I was just wondering how they planned on handling the apparent lore contradiction where a Titanrealm exists for a force greater than Titans.
DeleteI'm totally in favour of a Realm for Magic, Mystery and Prophecy though. And in case anyone is confused by the difference, it's like Water and Plumbing. Mankind invented Plumbing to get Water to do what they wanted it to, but Water has existed long before man. Similarly, I can definitely see there being a Titanrealm that lays down the principles of the three Fate Purviews by existing, just like Ourea sets down the principles by which the Plant Kingdom operates just by existing.
Mmm... pasta.
DeleteIn our original setup for the Titanrealm of Fate, its only Avatars are the triple goddesses: the Moirai, the Norns, the Matrones (and once the Slavs came along, the Sudice). They're "goddesses", but they're also sort of above the general order of deities, so while they functioned like Avatars, they weren't quite the same thing. Their power does indeed extend over not just the gods but the Avatars of the other Titanrealms as well.
We're considering expanding to allow other Avatars, but the idea will probably remain the same. All Fates, past and present and future, intersect in Comprenion, but its own Avatars are just as bound by them (which was a big theme in our Ragnarok cycle). Fate as a concept is above all other things in the setting, but just like gods can try to harness and even overcome some parts of it, so the Titanrealm and its Avatars can directly embody parts of it.
It was created by the triads of goddesses as an in-game event around Legend 7 for the BNT and Skeins bands in response to some serious bullshit pulled by Odin in an attempt to circumvent Ragnarok, so we don't have a full cosmological workup ready to go yet.