Question: Have you considered working out a new PSP for the Greeks? Sublime skill is not a Greek only thing, it's a pretty broad power for gods and heroes.
Actually, no, not really. We're pretty big fans of Arete. It's a cool, inventive mechanic that helps set the Greeks apart, and that's what PSPs are supposed to do. It's a useful (hella useful) power that other pantheons are jealous of, and that's also what PSPs are supposed to do. Most importantly, the concept of arete is in fact a very Greek one, and the mechanical way it works is a great way of representing it in-game.
In its original form, arete doesn't mean "super good at stuff" as much as it means "becoming the best that it is possible to be at stuff". It's an important distinction; lots of people are good at stuff, but not nearly as many are the best it is possible to be. Furthermore, there's a distinct element of being the best that you, personally, can be; arete is not as much being very skillful as it is the act of living up to your fullest potential.
Arete is one of the most lauded qualities in all of ancient Greek myth and literature; when dudes like Homer or Euripides want to really let you know that someone is amazing, they tell you that they have arete, which usually means they're a) awesomely brave and valorous, b) incredibly effective and good at what they do, or c) both. These are the core Greek values that myth in the area most loves. In fact, the concept of arete combines almost all the Dodekatheon Virtues in one - it implies Valor, is strongly linked to Intellect and is always made known through Expression. On yet another level, arete also suggests good fortune and prosperity, echoing the Greek philosophical assumption that if you are the most incredible and heroic you can be, good things will follow.
I'm always a bit surprised when people start complaining about Arete, in all honesty. I never get it. Obviously there's a feeling among some that it lacks something - some enterprising players and Storytellers have even invented entirely alternative Arete purviews to correct whatever they feel it's lacking. The only thing I find even remotely irksome about it is that it's not as interesting to just gain dice as it would be to gain different disparate powers, but I'm not irked enough to want to change it. I think it works beautifully for what it's intended to do (showcase a Dodekatheon Scion's ability to become literally the best anyone can ever be at a skill), and it makes up for its uniformity by also being flexible enough to allow it to be used on all imaginable abilities instead of being restricted to a few. As for those souls that I occasionally see turn up complaining that Arete is too underpowered, I just have to assume that those people are insane - well, that, or they've never played past Legend 3 and therefore have no conception of how nuts Arete gets or how quickly it scales up. We recently ran a one-shot game in which a group of four Pesedjet Scions attempted to ambush and kill a single Scion of Ares, and she wiped the floor with them, not because she was necessarily better built than they were (we built all of them and they were intended to balance) but because she had Arete and just won every single evenly-matched roll as a result. I love seeing Arete in action in game, and our players usually love it, too; the look on a player's face when they realize that they're better at the theory and execution of, say, Brawl than literally every other non-Dodekatheon god in existence by the time they're Legend 7 is a wondrous sight.
So, no, we're probably not going to replace Arete. We love Arete. Being really good at things isn't a skill limited to the Greco-Roman world, but prizing the ascension to the highest level of mastery that you can possibly achieve is one of the most epic themes throughout Greek myth, and that's what arete is all about. It's about achieving the greatest potential that your divine self could ever hope for. It's about living up to that each and every day with unparalleled feats of precision and excellence. It's about not just being good at something, but being the living embodiment of it.
To quote Aristotle, "We are what we do repeatedly. Arete, therefore, is not an action but a habit."
Do you believe that Arete is also an appropriate PSP for the closely related but somewhat distinct cultures of Rome and Etruria?
ReplyDeleteI've often seen those two groups handled as either part of the Dodekatheon or as sub-Pantheons (like the Vanir), but I have my reservations about the Etruscans at least sharing in Arete when they have such an interesting cultural fixation on divination..
The Romans, now, them I'm torn on. I've actually considered that Civitas might be a really interesting base to work from for a Roman PSP (if they needed one), but they're so similar to the Greeks... blargh, ya know?
I probably wouldn't include the Etruscans under the umbrella of Arete; they are a different culture, despite the tendency in Scion to lump Italy and Greece together and call it a day, and you're right, they're not nearly as fixated on the same morals and ideas. I love the Etruscans, but their obscurity makes it hard to do much with them.
DeleteThe Romans are a little weirder, because of that whole "we're going to just past Greek religion on top of ours" thing that they did; I think Civitas is actually a pretty interesting path to take for them, one I haven't heard anyone try before. I'm still not sure if there are enough high rollers among them to make a separate pantheon, but that's a good start!
I am not entirely sure Arete as it is now best way to get the philosophical concept across, because it does seem to include virtue aspect.
ReplyDeleteConversely prizing ascension through skill is very much something that is very much a part of the Chinese mythic(and Wuxia) landscape.
Tsukumo-gami I find has similar issues of sitting on what while not being a universal concept is not a unique concept. Trying to think of any native American pantheon without animist abilities. Same for the Tengrists and even the Shen end up with some odd kludges to cover bits of animist beliefs that carried over(Every hearth has a legend one being in it.. really?)
Oh, I agree, the Chinese love ascension through skill, but they love it a different way; it's only the same in terms of dots on the page, not philosophically, as the Greeks are more about fullness of potential and the Chinese more about achievement of a standard. I wouldn't look there for a Chinese PSP, definitely, as it's not something I'd consider specifically culturally unique enough (I'm not a fan of published Taiyi, like, at all, but I think I'm leaning more toward something having to do with harmony between elements).
DeleteAnimism is such a sticky wicket. A lot of religions have it to some extent, even those that don't automatically leap to mind like the Native Americans. I think it's an area where careful balancing on the part of writers and STs needs to happen to make things work for multiple pantheons - it's inevitable that there's going to be some philosophical overlap somewhere for someone.
Right what i am saying is I am not sure Arete(the concept) is best developed by its mechanical implimentation. the Mechanics feel fundimentally as generic as epic attributes
DeleteLike so many things in this game, it's all in how you use it. There are some obvious uses like "And the crowd goes wild" and "applied academics" launch it into the stratosphere as far as scale of usefulness. Much like the first level of Jotun, those extra dice make the difference (especially when it comes to roll statistics) between success and epic failure.
DeleteNow combine that statistical advantage Arete gives with something like "Serendipity" and "FortuneFTB" and there really should be nothing standing in the character's way. Throw some level10 +Fatebonds on there at demigod for those +10a or at god +10d+10a and You are quite literally the best at what you do. Isn't that the definition of Arete?
Now, you have to know I roll more 1's than almost anyone else. Having that extra padding or the ability to turn those potential 1's into autos is wonderful.
I love Arete. It's a PSP I'd probably not trade for anything... Except maybe Itztli....
You could just as readily made Epic Attributes "Arete" and you'd be just as accurate(more so because of success adding) but that stamps pretty serverly on anyone who's concept is "Super attribute" who's not a Greek.(and everyone knows Minimaxing Enech laughs at Arete Supremecy!)
DeleteArete mechanically as it functions now doesn't seem to promote an ideal but rather step on being Skill guy in any Pantheon but Greek.
Oh, I disagree. I think Arete in Scion is a pretty brilliantly simple way of showing the idea behind it. Nobody's getting their non-Greek ability guy concept stomped on any more than you'd say that having a concept of being one with nature means that Enech is oppressing you or having a concept tied to truth and righteousness means that Asha is somehow being unfair to you by existing in another pantheon. If your character wants to be all about skills and you want them not to be Greek, you'll have to find a different way of making that part of your Legend. Just because Dodekatheon Scion A technically rolls higher than you on a skill doesn't mean that you can't be Legendarily known for being amazing at it. Case in point: Goze is, thanks to Arete, actually way better at Brawl than Sangria, but you'd never known it from the way the stories about them pan out.
DeleteIf you're looking to min-max and be absolutely the best at a single roll you can be, then yeah, you should probably be Greek and take Arete (or Irish with a badass Skill Geas). But that seems like a boring goal to me - be known for being awesome at an ability? Yes! Be amazing at it, to a level humans and even most gods could never aspire? Double yes! But that doesn't mean someone else can't be better at the skill than you, unless you're going about making a reputation for yourself as second to that guy (I suggest not doing that).
I guess maybe I don't understand the idea of a character concept that is "super attribute". What does that mean? If you just mean "super awesome at a particular area like Charisma and everybody knows me for it and I'm renowned as the god of that thing", you can do that easily and not have Arete. Nobody walks around saying that Ishtar is clearly less hot than Aphrodite just because one of them has Arete Presence and the other doesn't.
Arete, awesome as it is, is also something of a horrible XP drain, keep in mind. You're seldom going to be able to keep more than one or two abilities maxed in it unless you're buying nothing else, since it's almost as expensive as a normal purview. Additionally, in our Fatebond system, Dodekatheon Scions have the unique problem of having to watch their XP drain into Arete forever; where other pantheons' Scions get an ability maxed and Fatebonds move on to other things, Dodekatheon Scions won't see their Fatebonds decide to buy something else until they've maxed that ability's Arete, too - not only a huge point-sink but often very frustrating, especially when they're buying you something you don't particularly want (like Arete Science: Botany or something).
Its less a minimaxing bit and more like I want to be able to shoot down suns with my archer but not run superfast, sometimes an attribute ends up abit broader than the concept you want to develop. While one can intentionally hinder one's capabilities on an epic attribute it seems somewhat kludgey
DeleteI see what you're saying, but that sounds more like a problem you have with the Epic Attribute system than with Arete. You need Dexterity to hit things; that's what the system does. The fact that a few people with Arete can backdoor isn't creating that system, just being a unique way of dealing with it (which is what PSPs are supposed to do). In fact, those with Arete are still at a disadvantage in trying to circumvent that system.
DeleteTo use your example, look at Donnie Rhodes when he hits god; he has 5 Dexterity, 4 Epic Dexterity, 4 Marksmanship and 8 Arete Marksmanship. That means he's rolling 38 dice with 7 successes, and averaging about 26 to hit anything.
That's fucking peanuts compared to someone with Epic Dexterity - Eztli has only five Marksmanship and no Arete, but with her eight Epic Dexterity she's getting an average of 36 to hit on her shooting rolls. She'll beat Donnie hands-down every time - he may be far her better in terms of the perfect science of gunmanship, but she's just that much faster and better at her aim. Arete's not in I-win solution to getting to ignore Epic Attributes; you pretty much can't ignore Epic Attributes if they pertain to something you want to be good at.
That just....its not a concept that makes sense. Dexterity is a very real thing. Im not saying scions system is perfect at the least, but you can do what you want without epic dex. But you certainly need to invest in "some stats." Any white wolf system needs you to buy your base attribute high to be successful. Scion helps a little more in letting you choose that attribute.
DeleteYou seriously have no need for arete to shoot suns out of the sky, nor do you necessarily need epic dex.
You can sub in epic int for epic dex on a one for one basis. You dont wanna be able to run really fast? Fine, you're perfect at maximizing math to aim, epic int is just as good as epic dex.
Or, you can go epic wits. You only miss once, then you hit. Everytime you miss once, then you figure out the trajectory and hit perfectly. Not quite as perfectly as with the epic dex, but itll have a much higher chance to hit.
In addition, epic dex or arete dont matter at all if you dont have the epic str or perception to back it up. Ive seen max dex people hit over and over again and constantly do zero dmg because they didnt have the dmg attribute to back up their attacks.
there are some who think that Arete is overpowered, in that investing only in it can make you a monster. Look at Donnie Rhodes. In all three pre gen write ups he has invested almost exclusively in arete and as a god he can shoot an atom between the eyes and can charm the devil himself.
ReplyDeleteYeah, but Donnie Rhodes is boring as shit (a problem most of the pregens suffer from along with poor build, alas). I've never seen anyone, barring Colin when he was a wee little thing of Legend 3, ever try to buy nothing but Arete. It's not hard to see why; unless you have no interest in being anything but a min-maxed knack-pony, you're not going to do it, because all-purpose boons are ridiculously awesome, especially at higher levels. A god who only has knacks is a boring god who is probably going to have trouble gaining Legend; I won't say it's impossible, because they could be doing amazing things with just their Arete to their name, but it's probably going to be more difficult. More importantly, he's a boring god who just can't do the awesome things his bandmates are doing - once Donnie's a god, great, he's good at shooting stuff, but other Scions around him can travel between worlds, hurl lightning bolts, become creatures of living flame or transform him into an animal.
DeleteAlso, in our Fatebond system, it's nearly impossible - the odds that someone somewhere won't start investing your XP in a few APP boons are so incredibly low that you might as well not even consider it an option. Somebody's probably going to decide that Donnie's so gorgeous that the light around him must be Sun, or that he's able to fly because he has an affinity with Sky, or something to that affect, and he'll end up developing those skills anyway.
I'd honestly feel sorry for a PC that invested only in Arete. They might have a combat advantage in straight-up by-the-numbers fights, but they'd be pretty crippled as a character once they passed the early Demigod stage.
"We recently ran a one-shot game in which a group of four Pesedjet Scions attempted to ambush and kill a single Scion of Ares, and she wiped the floor with them, not because she was necessarily better built than they were (we built all of them and they were intended to balance) but because she had Arete and just won every single evenly-matched roll as a result."
ReplyDeleteThis was pretty brutal, and it was at Legend 4, before Arete can really even take off. Pretty sure the Scion of Ares was even handicapping herself a little by her choice of weapons during that fight.
Yeah, I don't think we expected that at all. It was pretty hilarious to watch go down, despite the disgruntled Egyptians in the aftermath.
DeleteAnd hey, that all decided to suicide spectacularly at the end, so it was kind of awesome.
Still think that ill-fated ambush was the Egyptians' crippling mistake.
DeleteI know John thinks that Arete > Heku and therefore the outcome was inevitable, but I think that until they decided they were going to try to take that Scion of Ares out of the picture, Team Pesedjet was looking pretty good.
This all reminds me that I need to get off my ass and finish that PDF so that everyone else can download it and know what we're talking about.
DeleteYeah, I think if they had just played the long game a bit, well, longer, they'd have had it in the bag. Oh, what could have been.
DeleteIt was all about being misinformed about bob and thomas's stats(which totally fits the game, I should be misinformed about "stats"), and just not knowing that they were as fail at fighting as they were(and that bob would backstab me).
DeleteIt also didn't help that you didn't bring along your only healer :)
ReplyDeleteAnd she had all the sneakies and mind-whammies, too.
DeleteDudes. Always assuming the lady gods aren't useful in combat.
I thought she was used for sex distractions!
Delete