Friday, February 28, 2014

The Hills of Sunny Tuscany

Question: Will you guys ever think of doing an Etruscan pantheon, or is it to much influenced by the Greeks?

Question: Do you ever just want to take a break from exploring distant frontiers of exotic ancient civilizations and write an Etruscan pantheon?


Pfft, like the Etruscans aren't exotic? Please. We live in North Carolina. Any religion that isn't Southern baptist is considered "exotic" around here.

Actually, I have to admit that I am totally a fan of Etruscan mythology. It is heavily Greek-influenced, but its unique aspects are incredibly interesting; there's a lot of crazy stuff, including rampant haruspexy, surprising incest themes, and fantastic new relations between different gods that make it a joy to read about. Any pantheon with a secret shadow council of unknowable gods in charge of whether or not the thunder-god is allowed to use the Super Nuke Death Lightning can't help but be interesting. If you're interested in the details of Etruscan myth, we'd totally suggest getting your hands on Etruscan Myth, Sacred History and Legend by Nancy Thomson de Grummond; it's a great resource with a ton of interesting information, comparison to Greco-Roman myth and excellent reproductions of Etruscan mythological art.

However, we're not sure whether or not an entire Etruscan pantheon supplement is a feasible option. The Etruscans certainly have unique deities and ideas, but they are a poorly-preserved religion before the beginning of Greek influence, and once that Greek influence began to be felt in the religion, things got massively syncretized. The same problems inherent in trying to write a separate Roman pantheon are present for the Etruscans; the majority of their major gods are obvious imports of the major gods of the Theoi, or at best native gods who were assigned all the stories and attributes of Theoi gods until their own individuality has been severely compromised and difficult to identify under all the layers of Greekness. Tinia, for example, almost certainly began as a purely Italiante thunder god with his own myths and local significance, but once Greek influence arrived on the scene, he became so strongly identified with Zeus that we have almost no remaining myths of him or images of him in art that are not obviously borrowed. We would have a few interesting tidbits to say about Tinia, like the aforementioned council control of his most powerful thunderbolts, but for the most part all his myths are just myths of Zeus.

There are purely Etruscan gods in the pantheon; Tiv, for example, is clearly the native moon-god and was more important in that role that Aritimi, the much later imported version of Artemis, and Thufltha (owner of the most fun name to say among his pantheon) is a purely Etruscan deity of fortune and good will. But while we could certainly scrape several of them together and talk about their neat attributes and whatnot, we have the same problem that we have trying to write a Roman pantheon: we'd have to ignore the most important major deities because they're basically identical to the Theoi, and that leaves us with a pantheon that doesn't really represent Etruscan religion at all. But we also can't just throw all the Theoi-analogues in there, because then we have two weirdly pseudo-identical pantheons.

So it's not on our short list; it has problems that we aren't sure how to address yet. We do think there are definitely Etruscan gods in Scion's world, just like there are Roman gods, and that they are not necessarily best handled as part of the Theoi, but for the moment it's something that various Storytellers will probably have to handle. Some will probably say that they want to consider all three pantheons under the Theoi umbrella, and that they represent Theoi influence in a few different cultures that worshiped the same gods in slightly different, culture-appropriate ways. Some will probably say that all three are different, and have to figure out how to split up the major Olympians among them. Some will do the sub-pantheon thing, and others will probably go for a mixture somewhere in between all these options. But until we figure out exactly what we want to do with this perennial issue, we probably wouldn't try to write up the Etruscans separately.

12 comments:

  1. at last iv been waiting for you to answer one of my questions though no need to complain you guys have been busy and you guys do have a lot of questions any way that is what i feared but id love them so much sadly theres not so much you can do though i love the idea of forge ten pantheon just waiting to rebel but hey what your going to do but thank you at last for last iv been sending you gus question for 5 months but any way thanks

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    1. Yeah, they're very neat, but we're just not sure what to do with them right now. Maybe someday. :)

      I'm glad we answered one for you! Unfortunately, answers can be slow - we have literally hundreds of questions in our file, and so many of them are anonymous that we can't tell if we've already done one for a certain person most of the time. But we'll keep trucking, and hopefully you'll see some more you've sent in as we go along. :)

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    2. I hate beating a dead horse, but that's EXACTLY the problem with the Nemetondevos. Actually, there is more info about the Etruscan gods than there is for the gods of Gaul. At least there are some myths for more than a couple of the gods. I question making up an entire pantheon based on the mythological interpretation of some art and a lot of ret-conning (Lugh is like this, Llew is like this, so the proto-myth of Lug must be THIS). And that's exactly what my dissertation is supposed to be about.

      I don't know what the solution is. I like the idea of option. Sure, if you want an Etruscan pantheon, a Roman pantheon, a Greek pantheon, go for it, but you are going to have to make up a lot of stuff and nit-pick details to make what were obviously worshiped as the same gods under different names into whole, functioning individuals that don't seem to be clones of their counterparts. Maybe the Etruscan and Roman gods were ALWAYS the Theoi and the differences are just the way they did things in Etruria and the region around Rome compared to Greece. Then all the Etruscan gods without Theoi counterparts are moping around on Olympus with their Latin counterparts, Myceneaen gods who didn't get picked up by the Ionians & Dorians and the last little pitiful remnants of the Minoan pantheon. All probably less than Legend 12...

      Both ways seem unsatisfactory for different reasons. I would probably go with option 2 unless I was making a game focused on religion in the core of the Roman Empire. Option 2 allows you to take all those thunder god myths and give Zeus more stories to play with. It seems truer to the de facto Scion slant, e.g. separating the pantheons out seems like it bends a little towards the mortals determining the gods instead of the gods being who they are the mortals just have to deal with is insofar as they haven't Fatebonded the deity in question.

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    3. Hey, we're with you. There's a reason the Nemetondevos are under the "this isn't an active pantheon" section on the main site - they may be "canon" for Scion, but unfortunately there's just not much to be done with them. We will probably end up absorbing some of them into more developed Celtic pantheons later, and leaving the rest by the wayside. Alas.

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  2. Could the Etruscans have been in-universe defeated by the Theoi and subordinated by them? The original Roman gods may be in a similar position.

    The problem becomes that if Tinia or Jupiter was at one point an individual God (they were) how did they became a Zeus-clone, or even aspects of Zeus himself? Scion has no mechanism to handle syncretism in-universe.

    Dern complicated mythohistoricology.

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    1. would you guys ever consider adding a subsystem for syncretism? Perhaps a mechanic where gods roll of legend to take control of one anothers cults?

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    2. Hmm. It's an interesting idea, but it's also hard to tell whether or not it would work. We would definitely not want to add a system that was so simple - if gods could just steal one anothers' cults and very identites with a Legend roll, there'd be way fewer gods now, and Scions would be in constant mortal peril of just getting swallowed up by their parents and any other god they met. It's one of those things that would be super bad if used against PCs, and that might cause inconsistencies in the gameworld itself.

      But, syncretism is a real and powerful force, and aside from Dvoeverie, it doesn't have much mechanically to underlie it. I'm not sure if we need a mechanical system - we wouldn't want to close doors or make there be a particular "required" version of the world instead of allowing Storytellers to decide which myths predate others or what political shifts might have happened, but it's still something to think about.

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    3. That makes sense. I hadn't really considered the implications of such a power in the gameworld. On a related note, do you think someone using the wyrd could do something along those lines?

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    4. The Wyrd for Magic... maybe. Certainly it could be used to transfer all of one cult's Fatebonds to a new god, which would probably in essence make those mortals believe that that new god and the old one were one and the same. Probably not for the Prophecy/Mystery Wyrd, which should be more about information gathering.

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  3. This question got me wondering...how do you guys handle the Deva-Yazata split? Were they one single Pantheon at the dawn of time that split into two, or have they always been two separate Pantheons that just like poking their noses into each other's business?

    And speaking of the Deva-Yazata split, Faruza's new pic is beautiful :)

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    1. On a metagame level, we consider them to have been a single pantheon in time immemorial, but to have split around the beginning of reliably recorded history and to now be two separate and distinct entites. But that's all in-game - in the real world, we don't really know exactly how or when that happened, although Indo-European comparative scholarship says they were almost certainly intertwined at some point.

      That's another possibility for a syncretism-supporting system - just to say that Scions of gods who are major figures in more than one pantheon can choose which "aspect" of their parents they want to align with, and have that pantheon's Virtues/PSP. It's helpful for Scions, but also doesn't clear up the problems of whether or not multiple gods actually exist in the same role, etc.

      Thank you, I think so, too. :) I liked the vibe of the old one, but this one is I think much closer to what she actually looks like.

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  4. under the Tuscan sun god

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