Occassionally, I'll get asked by a player to play the child of a "non-playable" god. I've gotten Nike, Hermod, Xolotl, and probably a few others. They share with me what they read about the god, and tell me how awesome they'd be, and share their great idea for a character. I like to be as accommodating to my players as possible and always give them options. So, although these are not listed as playable options on the website, I would certainly allow children of any of these gods to be Scions.
So the player is excited, and I am waiting for the inevitable. The following example is with Hermod, but every example would be fairly close to this.
Player: Okay, so what are my in-clans (we are old Vampire: the Masquerade fans and this is what we call associateds because we're bad at change)?
Me: Okay, well, I think he should definitely have Psychopomp.
Player: Great, me too. And also Dexterity.
Me: Wait, what? Why?
Player: Well, he gets down to the underworld really fast...
Me: It actually takes him nine days, which seems like a long time for a god of speed to get anywhere.
Player: Well, Hel is REALLY far away. He does it as fast as anyone could.
Me: Also, he's riding a horse. Odin's horse. So he isn't going his own speed anyway.
Player: Okay, well, what about Death?
Me: Because he... goes... to the underworld...?
Player: Yeah, he probably has to get Death to deal with that stuff.
Me: If he had Death, he could just raise Baldr himself when he got to Hel's hall and it wouldn't be a problem. He probably has a little Death, but not max Death.
This goes on for a bit as we debate all the in-clans the player thought Hermod might have, but probably actually does not have. Then, at some point:
Player: So do I just get to pick a couple in-clans? How does this work?
Me: You get Psychopomp.
Player: But that's horrible and unfair!
Me: It's not. You dont have to play a Scion of Hermod. You could, in fact, play a Scion of the 150 or so other gods that I've spent hours and hours working on.
At this point we boil down the player's concept for their character and see what they really like about their idea of Hermod, and what other already playable Gods could fit that mold. They want a psychopomp that is brave, fearless, and has some death connotations. Obviously, picking your parent god should never be about which associated purviews and epics they have, but that's a post for another day. For simplicity's sake, let's help the player out with what they want (the Boons and Epics they want at 1XP less per level). With the same concept they could play a Scion of:
Heimdall
Odin
Uller
Or, with some interesting changes,
Mictlantecuhtli (his psychopomp son, perhaps)
Anubis (a more outgoing child of the jackal god)
Hermes (a brave and straighforward son of the trickster)
And this is where we always end up. Players believe that their concept is intrinsically tied to their god-parent, but it very rarely really is. The god-parent adds a lot of flair and depth to the character, but which god-parent you pick is rarely inseparable from your concept. And if your concept is indeed tied to this particular god, and you REALLY want to play a child of theirs, then not having several associated Epics and Purviews shouldn't be a big deal for you. I have never seen that situation happen, but I hope that one day it will.
But that does bring us to "What's going on with Hermod, Nike and Xolotl?" They are probably doing lots of things. Involved in the Titan war like any other god. Making deals, making trades, having babymamadrama. They can still do all of the things that Legend 12 gods can do with almost as much effectiveness; they just don't have that final set of massive cosmic powers.
A lot of people I talk to find this uninteresting, and debate that these gods have had millennia and they should be Legend 12 by now (and that's also a post for another day), but let's stick for a moment not on why they shouldn't be Legend 12, but on why it's necessary that they aren't.
People often forget, especially when crafting new Hero-level Scions, how vast and long the game is. Putting a normal game length at 6 hours, I'd say a full trip from legend 2 to final curtain at the end of legend 12 should take around 200 games. Throughout this journey, characters must always have friends and enemies of varying degrees of power around them; some less powerful then they are, some of equal power, and some who outstrip them (until the final climax at Legend 12, where finally they may be the most powerful). Most people seem to have an easy time with planning this throughout Hero and Demigod. It's always easy to envision all gods as far-off and omnipotent.
However, around the end of Demigod and throughout God, players should be realizing how powerful they have truly become. Legend 9 gods become great antagonists for a Legend 8 band. By Legend 9, they could be taking over the same roles as some of these less important gods. When they reach Legend 12 they will obviously finally see themselves on the same footing as their parents and realize how far they've come, but there should be hints of this at early God also. It is a great and necessary achievement when the player realizes they are finally as powerful as Hermod or Nike or Xolotl. If they are never able to see this around them, if you make all gods into Legend 12 monoliths, then there is nothing special about Legends 9 through 11. And then PCs start to realize that they live in a strange vacuum. They're gods, but no one seems to be the same type of god as they are. They are still at the bottom of the totem pole, just the way they always were.
This throws off the feel of the world. It ruins the setting and makes it all feel like one endless journey with no reward throughout. I that realize I'm drifting into hyperbole at this point, but you get the idea.
Gods that are Legend 9-11 are important. Don't extinguish them from your campaign and make all gods Legend 12. Make sure there is as much variety at God tier as you plan there to be at Hero and Demigod tiers. It's a challenge, and some players may whine about Hermod not being Legend 12 with a bunch of associateds, but they'll thank you in the end, when they reach God and realize their campaign world is much vaster and fuller for it.
Whenever you have players interested in a lesser known god it is sometimes advantageous just to offer them the associated package of their grandparent instead of their parent. In your Hermod example it would have been very easy to allow him to be the child of Hermod and use Odin's associated abilities.
ReplyDelete"Obviously, picking your parent god should never be about which associated purviews and epics they have, but that's a post for another day."
Powergamers have every right to enjoy the game as much as Roleplayers, but this is indeed a post for another day.
But that person would not be a scion of hermod. They might be a child of hermod, but they'd be a scion of Odin in your example.
ReplyDeleteAnd I have to disagree with you. Powergamers can enjoy the game all they want, but they wont be enjoying it at my table.
And as an aside. It really has nothing to do with power gaming, because if they are power gamers they should just choose odin or tezcat(soon to be fixed) anyway.
ReplyDeleteIf the player doesn't mind being technically a Scion of Odin, though, it is a pretty elegant solution. Odin is probably all about not having to go through all the muss and fuss of having to sire his own Scions all the time, and could easily delegate most of the duties of raising the kid to Hermod even if he were technically the divine parent.
ReplyDeleteHermod, though, is probably not Legend 12, which makes a big difference in flavor and setting. I'm willing to let anybody play a Scion of whomever they like, and I assume that if they choose a less powerful god they understand that they're choosing a less powerful skillset themselves.
That person would not be a scion of Hermod in a mechanical sense but they could go their entire life without Odin showing up in their life at all. For all roleplaying intents and purposes the player would be portraying a child of Hermod. If they grow powerful enough to attract the attention of Odin in our example then that's just bonus intrigue that probably would have happened anyway.
ReplyDeleteYou are free to disagree with me about powergamers. However, whether a powergamer would enjoy your game or not would depend entirely on the individual powergamer. It's not like skill with roleplaying and skill with powergaming are mutally exclusive.
I mean, you could do that with virtually anyone though. You could pull the same play with any god, even "playable" ones. Im a scion of X, but I have odin's associateds(cause they I get the most associateds). There could be some intrigue where Odin for some reason wants to spend all the effort to adopt a kid but then never use him for anything. Or more likely is manipulating hermod to make his new adopted child do what he wants anyway. And that can last as long as the character can stay oblivious to his parent being a punching bag for everyone else, and when he eventually reaches the same legend as hermod would his father is obviously not who he thought he was.
ReplyDeleteMy point though, is that sure, you could do that with literally anyone. You could have a whole game where they all though they were children of some god, but were all actually secretly children of Odin. Your character could think he was a scion of "bob from down the street", but actually be a scion of odin.
Re: Your powergamer comment. You misunderstood me. What I meant by "they wouldnt be enjoying it at my table" is that I dont let powergamers play in my games(or if they play, they are quickly broken of their powergaming). Ive never had someone quit, but I imagine that if I didnt break a powergamer of their habits they'd probably quit because its not an environment for powergaming.
Oh yes, you could frame an entire campaign around a massive group of players who were all secretly the Scion of Odin and in the hands of a masterful storyteller I am certain it would be a wonderful tale. Practically speaking, though, situations like that do not come up with such alarming frequency and you would always want to restrict it to a grandparent unless you were just trying to be sneaky about adoption (which can also make for an amazing story in moderation).
ReplyDeleteI think I did misunderstand you because what you said early sounded a lot like you were stating that powergaming was a behavior that is to be frowned upon, when it is merely a choice as valid as chosing to listen between Country music and Hard Rock.
Yes. We have a few adoptions and neither of them are by grandparent. However in both cases the player actually got less useful associateds in exchange for a particular story/history they were looking for. Not that less associateds is mandatory for adoption or anything, but it does lend more credence to a players asking for adoption.
ReplyDeleteAnd you were semi-right about my dislike of power gaming. I was hoping my last post explained that better. I dislike power gaming so much, that I'm not saying power gamers wouldnt have fun at my game. I am saying power gamers would not be allowed to play at my game at all.
And I do understand how power gaming can be fun for some people. But I really am against it in white wolf games, because they are storytelling based. I think it probably works fine in many other games.
Also, power gamers can single handedly(like many other problem player types). Ruin the game for everyone else. If you have to worry about a power gamer at your table, all the rest of the players have to also be power gamers, or they get jipped often and the game is less fulfilling for them.
This is a role playing game. The people that play it should be role players. That is the long and the short of it. There are many power gaming games out there. The power gamers should go play those and stop ruining role playing for the rest of us.
Or they should become STs so they take their power gaming and put it to use instead of using it to ruin other peoples experiences.
I think you're guilty of invoking the Stormwind Fallacy which poses that roleplaying and powergaming are not mutually exclusive skills. One could easily be a powergamer that is the best roleplayer you have ever seen, just like you could find a roleplayer who could not actually portray a sensible character to save his life.
ReplyDeleteTo suggest that powergamers are ruining role playing for the rest of us, or to suggest that they are problem players, is simply prejudice. If you have a problem with any player, whatever their preferences, you should speak with them personally and work out a way to meet the needs of your group. If their preferences do not match the needs of the group, then you are free to ask them to leave, but it has nothing to do with them being a powergamer and everything to do with that player being irresponsible in your game.
The "stormwind fallacy" is just a an argument used by powergamers to try to slip into roleplaying games. It uses psuedo philosophical flavoring to make its point seem authoritative. Yes, you can be a power gamer that roleplays. You can also be a roleplayer that knows mechanics and makes his character so that he is very able to do the job he wants to do.
ReplyDeleteBut at some point, and its a hyperbolic example that isnt quite perfect but it makes the point. You have to choose between your 10th dot of melle and your 10th dot of epic strength. You have always made your character to be a master swordsman, but strength gives you so much more bang for your buck. When it comes down to it, the power gamer chooses epic strength, and the roleplayer chooses melee.
There is always varying degrees of people, you can say that about anything. People love soccer and people love baseball. The soccer fan can still enjoy a baseball game though. But when given the choice between a soccer match and a baseball game, he will always choose soccer. And thus he is more of a soccer fan, then a baseball fan.
I am afraid we have to agree to disagree. Your opinion of the Stormwind Fallacy means I cannot see your stance as anything more than the byproduct of someone who has had a few bad experiences in his life and is trying to apply that as a generalization to an entire class of people.
ReplyDeleteI also do not understand your example, except possibly as an order of operation. The master swordsman would get both the 10th dot of melee and the 10th dot of epic strength and the 10th dot of epic dexterity. If getting the epic strength would be the more effective purchase then both players would pick it first if they were going to buy all of the above eventually. If the goal is to have the maximum dots of melee, then both players would pick the 10th dot of melee first.
It doesn't even matter if someone is a soccer fan, or if someone is a baseball fan. If that person happens to like both but still considers himself a soccer fan you have asserted under no uncertain teams that you are going to break him of his soccer habit or he is not welcome at your table. Even if he is capable of taking the skills he has learned in soccer and play within the rules of baseball.
I have not actually had any bad experiences. Ive known hundreds of roleplayers and powergamers in all varieties over my 20 years of gaming. However my views are not based on my interactions with those people, but on logic and reason.
ReplyDeleteOrder of operation is very important. Especially when you dont know what might happen next. And especially when you get new things very rarely. Maximum melee fits the character more, but maximum strength actually succeeds more at combat. The power gamer is worried about succeeding and tweaking, the role player is worried about becoming the best swords man in the land. Even though both of their "stories" say they are worried about being the best swordsman in the land.
If he is able to completely understand that we arent playing soccer at all at my table(you transitioned it to playing soccer instead of being a fan, but thats fine), and understands that we're only playing baseball. Then thats completely fine. Hes not being a power gamer. However if he comes to my table and 3 sessions in shifts the game towards soccer, or starts making everyone else play soccer. Then we have a very serious problem.
I cannot believe you have not had any bad experienced because your statements are not based on logic or reason, they are based upon your emotions that some group of people are ruining roleplaying games which has everything to do with assholes and nothing to do with enjoying mechanically efficient characters. If you have not had any bad experiences then how could powergamers possibly be ruining roleplaying for you?
ReplyDeleteIf the goal of the roleplayer is to be the best at melee then he is going to take Epic Strength 10 instead of Melee 10 first or he would not be the best at melee, he would just be kidding himself. If the goal of either player is to have melee 10 so they could have bragging rights then both players will select melee 10. For that matter, if a powergamer makes it his goal to maximize his skill to weave baskets then at some point he will get craft(basketweaving) 10.
You are right, I did swap it from fans to playing and I am sorry for that but the example made more sense since it involved actively doing something. At what point in your mind is the powergamer playing soccer instead of playing baseball? What if the powergamer is optimizing his ability to boost his fellow teammates and not stealing the spotlight (but making his teammates absolutely amazing)? What if the powergamer is focused on intellect abilities and gathers massive amounts of information and shares them with the rest of the party? Where do you draw the line on this slippery slope, the moment when one of your other players feels uncomfortable?
All my views on the subject are completely based on reason. The only powergamer I have a lot of direct experience with is my younger self. There is a difference between having a "mechanically efficient character" and being a "power gamer." A power gamer is very specifically one who chooses mechanic efficiency over character development and character based choices. Perhaps you have seen my website. Do you think I made these hundreds(thousands) of changes because I had a bad experience with each particular part of the game(be it, boon, knack, way the game works)? No, in fact very very few of my game changes are made because of an incident that happened in game. Instead, I'm an incredibly potent thinker, and I'm able to envision the possible outcomes of ideas and events before they happen when given enough information and time. You know....the same as most human beings can.
ReplyDeleteYour 2nd paragraph just shows complete lack of understanding towards the subject of character based xp expenditure choices. In your first example, by skipping strength 10 the character is not "kidding" themselves. The best weight lifters in the world are not automatically the best fencers. The ability dots very directly show your knowledge and understanding and skill in the particular field of study. More strength makes you more powerful. More dex makes you more accurate. Only more melee truly makes you a better swordsman.
The player is a medium for the character. Whenever you talk about what the "player wants" or how the "player can maximize dmg" and "how the player will certainly choose to optimize" you are getting into the realm of powergaming. I'm not saying that you are being a power gamer by talking about it. But assuming that a player NEEDS to make a certain choice for "optimization" is just bullshit.
Well, its not a slipperly slope, because I draw the line immediately. My games never let it get that far, and I suggest for people worried about slippery slopes(both in gaming and all parts of your life) that they be ended long before they start.
Also, you reversed the metaphor once again. Which again, defeats the point of metaphors. And it seems like your switching of them is showing that you arent quite understanding the points I'm making. I'll continue with your playing of the sports. The group cant play soccer and baseball at the same time. Its impossible. Because of the different type of balls and the different rules and the different fields. It is just never an option.
He cannot make his teamates seem amazing at baseball while hes playing soccer. The sports use different balls. Were he possibly able to make his teamate seem amazing by slide tackling the pitcher, that wouldnt actually help his team, because that would be cheating. If he was just gathering massive amounts of information, thatd be like gathering massive amounts of goals in the soccer field all alone while the rest of your group is playing baseball. Its not useful to anyone. They cant use the goals, they dont count in baseball.
However, if he wanted to, the soccer player could go play baseball if he wanted to. That was something you were arguing earlier, that a powergamer could roleplay equitably, or even excellently(perhaps he is Dion Sanders) and I was agreeing. But he has to be playing baseball when he is with his friends that all play baseball. If he switches to a soccer game(or starts demanding everyone else play soccer) he is ruining it for everyone else.
No. Someone who is power gaming can and often will chose mechanical efficiency over character development and character based choices because that is the emphasis of their enjoyment in the game, but there is nothing that requires the power gamer to do so in a way that harms the narrative of the story and making mechanically efficient can sometimes benefit the narrative of the story. In fact, if placing emphasis on character development and character based choices results in more power over the game world (because the rules of the game support this, or the storyteller is prejudice) then you should expect the power gamer to build a character that is mechanically efficient towards the goal of social interaction or just pleasing the storyteller.
ReplyDeleteI do not know why you have made most of the modifications to GBN but I consider your motivations for doing so to be a red herring. I also do not see how logic and reason allow you to conclude that roleplaying games are being ruined by powergamers no matter how much of a potent thinker you believe yourself to be. Since there is no evidence to support the logical definition of them being ruined by powergamers, that leaves you only the feeling that they are being ruining by powergamers. Since ruining is a negative description, and feelings that manifest without basis should not be considered in this discussion, I have to conclude that you had a negative experience. Maybe you personally were wronged by an asshole that powergamed. Maybe you had friends who were (experiences by proxy). Maybe you read about them (once again by proxy).
First, the best swordsmen in the world automatically IS the best fencer, and the best axe fighter, and the best mace fighter, and the best chain fighter, and the best knife fighter because this is White Wolf, and even if this does not make an ounce of sense it does prove that your analogy to weight lifters has no meaning. Second, being the best swordsman is not merely a function of your knowledge and understanding unless you wish to argue the position that someone with 1 Melee and 10 Science(Physics), 10 Science(Metallurgy), 10 Craft(Leather working) and 10 Academics is a better swordsman than both previous examples. Having trained in Kendo I know that dexterity and to a lesser degree strength both contribute considerably to the chance of someone winning in a sword fight and form an aggregate with knowledge. The mechanics of the game support this realistic outcome since statistically someone with 10 Melee and 9 Epic Strength will lose a sword fight more frequently to someone with 9 Melee and 10 Epic Strength.
It may be possible that I am not understanding the points you are making because they do not constitute valid points in my mind, so I may end up addressing what I believe to be your point instead of your actual point. For example, this entire conversation could be based upon your idea that you are not being a powergamer unless you are being an asshole, and my idea that being a powergamer and being an asshole are two separate things.
I think the problem with the metaphor we are using (and why it keeps shifting) is that being a powergamer is a personal preference like being a sports fan, but powergaming is also an active process like actually playing sports but it is not restricted to a single sport. In your example bellow you state that he cannot make his teammates seem amazing at baseball while he is playing soccer, but he can use his training while in soccer to improve his baseball game. If his teammates feel uncomfortable that he is playing baseball better than them, then he can restrict himself to doing things that make his teammates play baseball better (or doing other odd things like making sure the field is in perfect condition or the bases are not slippery or the bats are properly weighed). The metaphor itself is awkward.
This time i will respond in reverse order.
ReplyDeleteYou do not understand how metaphors work. I want you to take time and really process the following before responding. Do not just spastically reply without thinking long and hard about it.
This all grew out of your saying that a powergamer should be able to play with roleplayers and everything be happy and fair and even and no one should have problems with it.
The baseball players are the roleplayers.
The soccer player is the Powergamer.
Soccer is powergaming.
Baseball is roleplaying.
There are 4 baseball players and 1 soccer player. Because of this they will always be playing baseball. The soccer player, as you said may have developed skills while playing soccer(or while playing baseball in the past) to be decent at baseball. But he wants to play soccer, but he cant, because they're all playing baseball. If he starts playing soccer in the baseball field, not only is he no long contributing, but he is getting in the way and being a nuisance. Instead of guarding the outfield hes doing bicycle kicks. The team is worse off for it, and everyone has less fun.
You come off as a power gamer who has been kicked out of some games, or had some games stop because of you. Or perhaps you play with an entire group of powergamers that would like to masquerade as roleplayers. Im really not sure. But you seem very very fixated on this. It reminds me of someone trying to argue to get into a country club, but they arent wanted, so they make all these reasons that the country club should let them in. But the fact that they have to argue and bitch about it is the exact reason why they cant be in the country club in the first place. Not a direct comparison, it just reminds me of the situation.
Since you arent saying what you think my points are, I cannot know whether you understand them or not. And since I've been very clear about my opinions and rationale since the original post, I cannot imagine you are misunderstanding.
Being a power gamer and being an asshole have pretty much nothing to do with each other. I dont even understand why you are bringing them up together. At no point have I talked about powergamers reason for powergaming, or their demeanor or anything like that. I wouldnt allow them into my game even if they were the nicest kindest power gamer because that sort of play does not mesh with the other players or myself.
We are not talking about winning a sword fight. We never were. I specifically stated that obviously the rules favor the epic strength, and that was my point.
Your statement about 1 melee and all those other abilities was laughable. It actually shows complete lack of understanding about what Im talking about. Yes, a master swordsman should take those other abilities, theyd probably be helpful. But his melee ability(and maybe I should have not picked melee since it does apply to many weapons. Perhaps a stealth vs dex argument would have been more appropriate) is what specifically signifies his SKILL at melee. And if he wants to be a master, that is what he must train. I was insanely strong when I started Kung Fu, but even though I could throw most of the class around like rags, they didnt just hand me my sash. I had to work long and hard and develop the training. It was never rewarded to me(or anyone) on athleticism alone.
" Since there is no evidence to support the logical definition of them being ruined by powergamers, that leaves you only the feeling that they are being ruining by powergamers"
This is just wrong. There doesn't need to be evidence. This is not a scientific study. It goes again to the baseball metaphor, or any similar one. If someone starts playing soccer on the baseball field they are ruining the game. You dont need evidence for that. You dont need to "feel" that. You simply cannot have 2 people playing different games occupying the same time and space. It will only lessen the fun/enjoyment for all parties.
And finally back to the start of your post.
ReplyDelete"No."
As far as I can tell this responds to nothing directly. I've looked through my post over and over. And nothing is something that a response of "no" makes sense to. Your following paragraph only goes on to describe what I had already stated. You say no, but then your paragraph completely agrees with what I just said. You define a powergamer, as I would define a power gamer.
Which leads me to believe that you are not actually reading, digesting, and thinking, but are instead replying haphazardly, nonsensically and emotionally. I am happy to have a conversation with you, but if you are not going to participate like a human having a conversation then I will happily stop replying to you.
You are incorrect. This all grew out of you saying "Obviously, picking your parent god should never be about which associated purviews and epics they have, but that's a post for another day." And my response to that statement which was "Powergamers have every right to enjoy the game as much as Roleplayers, but this is indeed a post for another day."
ReplyDeleteClaiming that baseball players are roleplayers and soccer players are powergamers is oversimplifying the situation since soccer cannot be powergaming since one cannot play soccer and play baseball at the same time, and one can powergame while inside of a roleplaying game. You proposed the original metaphor and I had to modify it to include playing since it could not encompass both the passive and active aspects of powergaming. At no time did I restrict the metaphor to only playing. The metaphor you are trying to use once again falls apart because even if there are 4 baseball players it is still possible to powergame within the rules of baseball, but we cannot simultaneously say that 1 soccer player can play soccer during a baseball game.
I have never actually been kicked out of games, and I will let my friends speak for my habits as a player and a storyteller if they decide to comment on this blog. I am very fixated on this issue because it is a form of intolerance and prejudice that shares many parallels to intolerance against racism, homosexuality, or even just 'being a nerd'. This is an emotional issue for me, since I have been looked down on and rebuked for enjoying a particular style of gaming. I have to represent myself as the token good guy to people who have been burned a couple of times by assholes and then they assume that powergamers cannot be good at roleplaying and contribute meaningfully to the narrative.
The fact that you would not allow powergamers into your game is a point of major contention for me, and the fact that you would try to break us of our preferences, and the fact that you think powergamers are "ruining role playing for the rest of us", and the fact that you think someone should never pick a parent god for their associated epics and purviews.
We were talking about being the best swords master, which means he is the best at all the mechanics involved in participating in a swords fight. If you want to change the definition of being the best swords master to 'having the highest dots in melee' then both roleplayers and powergamers can optimize for that if it is their chosen goal. If we switch over to Stealth vs Dexterity, and the goal is to be the best at avoiding detection, then you would have maximum ranks in both Stealth and Dexterity. If the goal to to maximize your skill at Stealth then both roleplayers and powergamers could put maximum ranks in Stealth. If we switch over to your experiences with Kung Fu, then you had to have both dots of skill and dots of abilities to be considered the best at Kung Fu. Attributes have to play an important role in your skill because you could hardly throw someone, lock someone, strike someone, or call yourself a master of Kung Fu if you had no Strength or Dexterity to perform those maneuvers successfully. At best you would just call yourself a scholar of Kung Fu. That is why your overall skill at something is an aggregate of your attributes + abilities and why the mechanics of the game require you to roll attributes + abilities and not abilities + abilities.
There does need to be evidence or we are just discussing opinions, and if we are just discussing opinions then you can call me a moron and I can call you a bigot and we can both go our separate ways and end this the way every internet debate ends. Nowhere.
ReplyDelete"No." Responds directly to the part of the paragraph where you write "A power gamer is very specifically one who chooses mechanic efficiency over character development and character based choices." You define a powergamer as something negative, something that ruins roleplaying games, and something that 'obviously should not be done'. I define powergaming as a personal preference and a way of enjoying the game that can be accomplished without pissing off everyone around me. We define it differently. If you sincerely believe that I am replying haphazardly, nonsensically, and am not every bit the potent thinker that you are after I have repeatedly clarified my position then you are free to leave me with the last word.
What is your definition of power gamer? Because you havnt defined it in any way other then saying that roleplayers should put up with them because they arent getting in the way. If I wanted a table full of people not getting in the way Id invite ten more people over.
ReplyDelete"I define power gaming as a personal preference and a way of enjoying the game that can be accomplished without pissing off everyone around me"
You just defined nothing. Is that your definition of power gaming? Because it tells nothing. That could be bass fishing, or playing on your ipod while the game happens.
When you say that we define it differently do you only mean that I define it as something, and you(as a labeled power gamer) are trying your best to take away all definition from it?
"This all grew out of your saying that a powergamer should be able to play with roleplayers and everything be happy and fair and even and no one should have problems with it."
ReplyDelete"And my response to that statement which was "Powergamers have every right to enjoy the game as much as Roleplayers, but this is indeed a post for another day." "
These are the same thing.
Im confused as to why you seem to think that there are "rights". Are there? What are they? I have heard of groups that run as a sort of democracy, but I certainly cant imagine that level of chaos.
"Claiming that baseball players are roleplayers and soccer players are powergamers is oversimplifying the situation since soccer cannot be powergaming since one cannot play soccer and play baseball at the same time, and one can powergame while inside of a roleplaying game."
ReplyDeleteNO! this is Exactly why I made this metaphor. You are either doing one or the other. They are mutually exclusive. Power gaming is a different game. One that I'm not playing. You should find a power gaming group and play that game with them.
I would be more than happy to share my definition of power gamer. The act of powergaming is a style of interacting with games or game-like systems with the aim of maximizing progress towards a specific goal above that of other considerations. To be a powergamer is to prioritize (theoretically enjoy) the act of maximizing progress towards a specific goal above that of other considerations. Note that it is technically possible to be a powergamer and be very bad at building an efficient character.
ReplyDeleteAt no point does this definition prevent the possibility of a powergamer selecting goals that are not disruptive to roleplayers (or even other powergamers). In this way it is completely possible for a powergamer to continue powergaming without 'pissing off everyone around [them]'. There is nothing wrong, unjust, or immoral about the act of powergaming when it is done responsibly. When I say that we define it differently, I refer to the following statements you have built your position upon and not yet retracted.
A) "Obviously, picking your parent god should never be about which associated purviews and epics they have". This is incorrect. Not only is it perfectly acceptable for someone to pick a parent god based upon which associated purviews and epics they have, there is even a very reasonable (but unnecessary) explanation to do so. If you wish that explanation I would be happy to provide it but it is a tangent irrelevant to the actual point being made here.
B) "I don't let powergamers play in my games (or if they play, they are quickly broken of their powergaming)". This is your opinion but smacks of prejudice. It is perfectly possible for a powergamer to play in your games and they should not be broken of their powergaming simply because it is powergaming. The issue should only be addressed if the player is being disruptive and then his efforts should be guided towards powergaming in a way that is supportive and beneficial to the entire group. This is not always possible, but is drastically better than a blanket declaration that you do not let powergamers play in your games.
C) "This is a role playing game. The people that play it should be role players. That is the long and the short of it. There are many power gaming games out there. The power gamers should go play those and stop ruining role playing for the rest of us." This statement just blows my mind and reminds me of the Jim Crow laws. Not only should powergamers be able to play the same games as roleplayers but they should not be segregated to 'games for powergamers'. You even state that we are "ruining role playing for the rest of us" and claim you have arrived at this conclusive through the use of reason and logic? How can you not see that this is 'separate but equal' all over again except for smaller stakes?
D) "Or they should become STs so they take their power gaming and put it to use instead of using it to ruin other peoples experiences." Powergamers are perfectly capable of using their skills to benefit others instead of ruining other peoples experiences; especially if those bothered by their actions take the time to explain the situation and come up with a peaceful compromise.
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ReplyDeleteThe two statements you listed are not the same thing because I was not saying that nobody should have problems with it. If a powergamer is being disruptive then he should be spoken to, but that does not mean he has to stop powergaming entirely. Just the same, if a roleplayer is being disruptive then he should be spoken to, but that does not mean he has to stop roleplaying entirely.
ReplyDeleteI suppose you are correct about "Rights". I keep seeing this issue having so many parallels to other issues of intolerance that I think of the battle for civil liberties, but this is more along the lines of the evolution of 'nerds' being persecuted by 'jocks' and no actual 'Rights' will be involved. I will concede that 'Rights' is probably the wrong term to have been used in my initial post without undermining the original message.
I agree with your first paragraph. It is essentially the same as my definition.
ReplyDelete"goals that are not disruptive to roleplayers"
And here is where we get caught up everytime. I do not spend 35+ hours a week running and planning games so that one person in one of my games can be "not disruptive". If the goal of someone at the table is to be "not disruptive" they shouldnt be there. I have a very long list of players. Im always trying to work in more, there is no room at the table for someone who is playing a different game then the rest of us and "not being disruptive". Everyone at my table should be constantly working and growing their parts in the story. All my players do that, and we all enjoy that. Why would we want someone who was not doing the same as we were but instead is being not disruptive?
And to quickly hit on your statements. Of course there is nothing immoral or unjust about power gaming. Those are words that dont belong in this conversation. Just as your comments about Jim Crow laws has no place here. This is talk about hobbies, not if you can grow up and have fair and equal rights in your society. This isnt civil rights, and to compare your complaining about not getting to play a game, vs the struggle of a people over centuries to be protected from abuse, slavery, murder, and imprisonment is bordering on insane, but certainly insulting and inappropriate.
A) How is it incorrect? I can see how you might disagree(because you are a power gamer I never would think you'd agree), but its a statement of opinion, it cannot be incorrect. Or, its a statement of fact about my games in particular, which also, by definition makes it correct, not incorrect. Which associateds they have obviously will enter your thought process while making them, but it should never be "about that" it should never be a deciding factor.
B)Here I have to assume you dont know what opinion means. It was a direct statement of fact. You go on here to follow up on how you feel the situation should be handled, your opinion. But I did not state an opinion, I stated a fact. You disagree the rule itself, not the statement that it is a rule.
C)Again, the ridiculousness of comparing this to the plight of a race of people is harrowing. However to comment on your point, separate but equal also came about because of reason and logic not despite of it. What makes separate but equal wrong is that because of socio-economic factors, intolerance, racism and hate, separate is impossible. It can never actually be equal. Because power gaming is a choice, and not a birthright(please dont start insulting the gay community and say you were born a powergamer and there is nothing you can do to change). I also dont let people come to my table and play monopoly while roleplaying(although there is sometimes some angry birds).
We are disagreeing on one very specific, and we will never agree on it. You believe that power gaming and role playing are two ways to play the same game. I believe they are two separate games that cannot be played together. They are both fun, but they are mutually exclusive. However. The books all say roleplaying games. And thats one fact you're not going to be able to get away from. You're asking to come to a roleplaying game and play your own seperate game. Thats not gonna fly at my table, it doesnt fly at a lot of tables, and instead of arguing about it you probably should get used to it.
D)Same answer as C basically. I dont have to compromise for you. I simply do not understand where you get the notion that you have an equal investment in a game you have not played and arent welcome in. I promise you, there are vast hordes of people playing power gaming games. Hordes dude. You are welcomed at their table. Stop trying to argue that you should be allowed to play your vastly different game at someone elses gaming table.
ReplyDeleteOr Sac up and ST your own game. Let it be the powergaming roleplaying mecca you always wanted. Dont attempt to ruin other peoples happy games when you have the option of doing your own just as easily.
Moving on to your second post. You seem to really hold onto this idea that "disruptive" is the problem I have with power gaming at my roleplaying game. And hopefully through all that I've described in nausea why that isnt vaguely what im talking about. If you live in a world where you only fix things that are disruptive, you live in a world that will never get much better.
ReplyDeleteYou feel picked on. I now understand that. But I would never sacrifice my gaming to fix that for you. Nor would i expect others who are having fun with their roleplaying. Your own emotions are your own problem.
So I am sorry you feel picked on, but its not going to change. Just like soccer and baseball are never going to be played together.
I think the ultimate point of this conversation was summed up quite nicely when you said "We are disagreeing on one very specific, and we will never agree on it." Having been on the receiving end of the intolerance and ridicule that is directed at powergamers I have the perspective to understand that it is indeed an issue of discrimination that is neither insane nor ridiculous.
ReplyDeleteBut, maybe I am wrong. Maybe you are wrong. The chances of us admitting it in this discussion is basically nil which means we are going nowhere. This is all too eerily similar to our heated conversations back on the Scion Forums right before you were banned. I think it would be best if we both walk away from this conversation, and wish each other the best. As for ST'ing, I do run a game and it is the powergaming and roleplaying Mecca I want it to be. As I mentioned before, my players are free to get on this blog and speak to the quality of my game if they are so inclined.
Regardless of anything else in this argument (hi, I'm Anne and I turn into a turtle when there's angry yelling), I hope your game keeps on being just as badass as it can be. If you're having fun, and your players are having fun, and everything is as epic and awesome as you could wish, then rock on with your bad self. I do tend to always feel like the way we play is the only sane way in the universe, but I'm usually clear-headed enough to realize that that's crazy talk.
ReplyDeleteI think you do have a lot of good insight and I enjoy seeing you in discussions, so keep on keepin' on, whether it's here or on the forums.
It is only as much discrimination as it is that they dont let people play soccer during a Mets game. And it is only discrimination in so much as the Mets probably arent going to recruit a soccer player.
ReplyDeleteYou run a game that mixes soccer and baseball together to form a new game. That is good, and hopefully you have fun with it. And hopefully all your players are having as much fun as you think they are.
Ive had many debates on the white wolf forums and if you are on them then I no doubt had one with you. Whatever it was I'm fairly sure I was in the right.
No worries, Anne. You're one of the most level-headed people I've ever had the honor of speaking with over the forums. I think me and Lambach are just oil and fire that are destined to cause property damage whenever we're put in the same room together.
ReplyDeleteWhich is amusing because I am told that Lambach is quite a mellow guy in real life. :P
You can imagine that they are a separate game all you want but that doesn't make it true. You're free to ask my players and see how they feel about it, or ask any of the people who my games have influenced for the better indirectly. I only think my players are having fun because they tell me they are after each and every game I run.
ReplyDelete"Whatever it was I'm fairly sure I was in the right."
At this point, you're just trolling.
(waves at Anne and John)
ReplyDeleteI both run a game for Iry and I'm in his Missing Pieces game (and we're players in a third game alltogether!) and while Iry on here seems to have this huge one-way stance on Powergaming, (and I actually lean more towards your views Lambach) the issue is non-existant in any of the three games, either as a ST, a player, or as a fellow player.
Iry builds dangerously effective characters. He'll waffle and root around for the best builds concerning gods and the flavors he's going for and then once that's settled, he makes the character and then role plays wonderfully. Iry may be a powergamer but he has never once disrupted roleplaying at all - and his games are wonderfully paced and storied out too.
Not to say that he and I don't clash occasionally when I'm building a new character and he's around; he'll mention something that's more mechanical but still fitting for the character and I'll huff and growl and go towards a role playing knack/boon/ability first, harking back to your suggestion of the roleplayer goes for Melee 10, the Powergamer goes for Strength 10.
Iry will always go for Strength 10 first but he's still a role player and a damned good one - just like you two are from all the stories I've heard Amy and Thomas mention.